V 22 Indian Options

[sob]

@sob
It's classified [emoji12]
Saar, no info available.

That is why we need to test this at Siachen. I have a feeling this could be a game changer for us.

 

[brational]

That is why we need to test this at Siachen. I have a feeling this could be a game changer for us.

You may be interested to read the latest post by @Ray in Nepal Earthquake thread.

 

[Ray]

V22 looks great, but then the rotor wash is very pronounced.

It will shake off any structure that is not firmly embedded in the ground.

In Siachen, the structures are not firm and there are barrel and jerrycans and all sorts of stuff in the open. Even the FFL (Field Flush Latrines) are not embedded as would be desirable.

The V-22 is "less forgiving than conventional helicopters", as per U.S. Government Accountability Office (U.S. GAO).

In Nepal, their operation has not been allowed by the Nepal Govt since they were blowing off roofs because of their rotor wash,.Same thing with the British Chinooks. They too were told to stop operations.

 

[Ray]

Official Designation V-22A Osprey
Service Designations CV-22 (USAF), HV-22 (USN), MV-22 (USMC)
Primary Role Tactical V/STOL transport
Secondary Role Special operations
National Origin USA
Original Contractor Bell Helicopter Textron and The Boeing Company
Operator United States Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps
Dimensions
(spread configuration) Length: 57 feet, 4 inches (17.47m);
Width: 84 feet, 7 inches (25.76m);
Height: 22 feet, 7 inches (6.86m)
Dimensions
(folded configuration) Length: 62 feet, 7 inches (19.05m);
Width: 18 feet, 5 inches (5.61m);
Height: 18 feet (5.47m)
Wingspan 45 feet, 10 inches (13.96m)
Height at Tail 17 feet, 7 inches (5.34m)
Cargo Hold Length: 24 feet, 4 inches (7.41m);
Width: 5 feet, 11 inches (1.80m);
Height: 6 feet (1.83m)
Armament Varies
Engines Two Allison T406-AD-400 engines
Horsepower 6,150 shp (4,588kW) per engine
Cruise Speed 316 mph (509km/h) in airplane mode;
213 mph (343km/h) in helicopter mode
Max Speed Unknown
Range
(self deployment) 2,100 nm (3,889km)
Service Ceiling 26,000 feet (7,925m)
Operating Weight 33,140 pounds (15,032kg)
Fuel Capacity 13,850 pounds (6,282kg)
Max Payload Internal: 20,000 pounds (9,072kg);
External: 10,000 pounds (4,526kg) per hook;
Rescue Hoist: 600 pounds (272kg)
Number of Seats 24
Max Takeoff Weight Vertical: 52,870 pounds (23,981kg);
Short-running: 57,000 pounds (25,855kg);
Self deployment: 60,500 pounds (27,442kg)
Basic Crew Three (pilot, co-pilot, crew chief)
Date Deployed Unknown
Total in Service Unknown
http://www.theaviationzone.com/factsheets/v22_specs.asp

 

[brational]

@Ray sir missed the most interesting part -

In one high-altitude village ravaged by tremors, the sight of an Osprey gave much hope to residents who wanted to be evacuated. But the Osprey's payload limitations meant that the aircraft could evacuate only three persons. Elsewhere, villagers have asked the Nepal Army not to send the Ospreys "because they take away the little that remains with us".

 

[sob]

thanks @brational now the picture is clearer.

 

[Khagesh]

There should have been an 'absolute no' option also. V-22 is as hyped as 'swing-wing' and 'STOVL' and 'Thrust Reversers' were.

Even the US Navy which was once the biggest backer of Osprey, later backed out completely. NIL buys. Only recently the US Navy has been convinced about the Osprey for a grand total of ~12 units between 2018 and 2022. That too only as replacements for phasing out C-2As. That too after a lot of politiking by the US Marines (the force that killed the JSF also - these people are crazy - but I love them for exactly that reason ). And god only knows what was 'sold' as part of the deal to hook US Navy to it. From what I understand of what I read, the US Navy too sees Osprey only as a replacement for Helos where the Helos work out a lot expensive - heavy haul types etc. Somehow even in US it is the Navy that makes wise decisions.

Indian navy needs a C-2A styled aircraft and a mechanism to launch it. That mechanism is central because a C-2A styled aircraft can give nearly twice the range at nearly twice the availability rates. Availability is going to be crucial for the Navy.

There are a lot of US fanboys here. The only real deal that India can do with US is the steam CATOBAR. That is one thing that we can absorb and adapt without burning a hole and that has a massive utility at very high efficiencies. With a CATOBAR a C-2A kind of aircraft will probably give a three times the benefit of a tiltrotor in terms of the lifecycle cost. People don't often consider the volume requirements for a payload. They just fixate only on the mass. Iska itna ton, uska bhi utna ton so all equal equal. Nahi ji. Most precious thing could easily be the volume, not the weight. The physics does not favour a Tiltrotor when you factor in volume also. Then there is the heat produced on that massive mechanical transmissions. Then there is the cost of upkeep of these much more complex aircrafts. I would rather get some Rato Packs, wire arrest and CATOBAR assist to manage things.

Even as a Special Ops aircraft it is useless. The thing is a flying billboard. Will get spotted from afar. And zero survivability. The goddamned thing has no Auto-Rotation and no glide capability. All of the precious commandos on board will get killed in this thing.

Look there is a reason why prop planes developed like a particular thing and helos developed like a particularly different thing and both gained this kind of look to serve some real demands. As they say in Hindi - Kauva chala Hans ki chaal.

 

[SajeevJino]

.
one think from my point of view,

We have two Ski Jump Carriers, so launching heavy aircrafts is impossible, also one can't launch a MiG 29 K at full MTOW or maximum allowed payload, either the Fuel or Weapon no. decreased to Take off from the Carriers, So the need of Aerial fuel Tanker is a best option to increase the carrier Air wing. a modified V 22 can act as a Good aerial refuler for those Mig 29K.

another one is AEW, currently the Ka 31 is the primary Carrier Early warning helicopter, but it's also has it's limits such as power range and altitude and performance, A V 22 modified to carry a AEW radar Seems much powerful for Carrier Air wing's fighting power.

I never argued the V22 for any other ARC , Special forces etc etc

 

[sob]

V22 looks great, but then the rotor wash is very pronounced.

It will shake off any structure that is not firmly embedded in the ground.

In Siachen, the structures are not firm and there are barrel and jerrycans and all sorts of stuff in the open. Even the FFL (Field Flush Latrines) are not embedded as would be desirable.

The V-22 is "less forgiving than conventional helicopters", as per U.S. Government Accountability Office (U.S. GAO).

In Nepal, their operation has not been allowed by the Nepal Govt since they were blowing off roofs because of their rotor wash,.Same thing with the British Chinooks. They too were told to stop operations.

Thanks for the Info sir. Never thought of it this angle.

 

[brational]

AEW sensor fitment will be a challenge! Refueling role is a good option but I think it won't be able to refuel more than one aircraft at a time.

.
one think from my point of view,

We have two Ski Jump Carriers, so launching heavy aircrafts is impossible, also one can't launch a MiG 29 K at full MTOW or maximum allowed payload, either the Fuel or Weapon no. decreased to Take off from the Carriers, So the need of Aerial fuel Tanker is a best option to increase the carrier Air wing. a modified V 22 can act as a Good aerial refuler for those Mig 29K.

another one is AEW, currently the Ka 31 is the primary Carrier Early warning helicopter, but it's also has it's limits such as power range and altitude and performance, A V 22 modified to carry a AEW radar Seems much powerful for Carrier Air wing's fighting power.

I never argued the V22 for any other ARC , Special forces etc etc

 

[SajeevJino]

AEW sensor fitment will be a challenge! Refueling role is a good option but I think it won't be able to refuel more than one aircraft at a time.

see the Radar can be fitted above the rotor..even it was folded it won't affect the radar.

Also yes it seems only single Aircraft can be refueled at a time.. we can use two V22 for Aerial refuel role

 

[Khagesh]

Indian carriers without the CATOBAR will be Underway replenished just like all the other carriers are in the world. Despite that STOBAR configuration is not a hindrance to landing fully laden and flying fully laden transporters of C-2A class, even for a little one like 40000 ton INS Vikrant. Tests of this nature have already been done by US Navy. See I told you even in US it is the Navy that makes better sense. COD is a specialized operation and C-2A class upgraded aircrafts from Grumman is the only real need, should there be any ever. Which for the time being is not there and will likely not be there for next 15 years and by that time India should be able to make a C-2A UPG class on its own.

 

[Khagesh]

Even for surveillance duties a modified 2 engine transporter can be used.at probably half the airframe cost of a V-22. Which on the flip side implies twice the surveillance capacity compared to a V-22.

 

[SajeevJino]

Even for surveillance duties a modified 2 engine transporter can be used.at probably half the airframe cost of a V-22. Which on the flip side implies twice the surveillance capacity compared to a V-22.

This what have RAW wanted and get it . already operational under ARC, six of them under operational

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.in/2014/06/raws-secret-plane-shaping-in-israel.html

 

[Zebra]

Can this machine hover at an altitude 20000 feet? No info is availble on this.

Hover ceiling is in-between 5400 ft to 7100 ft, depends on its variant.

 

[Khagesh]

This what have RAW wanted and get it . already operational under ARC, six of them under operational

http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.in/2014/06/raws-secret-plane-shaping-in-israel.html

Beautiful aircraft.

Next the RAW should ask for a modified SSJ 100 with some really large aperture MWIR telescope on it. Global 5000 and SSJ 100 would complement each other beautifully.

 

[rotormagic]

Apologies for butting in late but a helicopter or a rotor craft has to be evaluated under different criteria:
a) Service ceiling which is standard measure for all aircraft
b) max OGE (Outside Ground Effect) hover
c) Free air hover (I think with Mi 17's it is 1875 mtrs AMSL approx figs from memory)
d) IGE hover (In Ground Effect hover)
e) Useful landing load (Useful load is the load carried other than crew and fuel to destination)

There are very few places on earth where altitudes greater than 20,000 ft are required to be mapped by helicopters - I can think of the Greater Himalayas / Karakoram and the Andes in South America. Out of the two places only the Greater Himalayas / Karakoram are regularly occupied by anyone, i.e. the Indian Army. Hence, we have a unique requirement.

Manufacturers never set out to meet these requirements except in case of Dhruv and hence all helicopters are optimum for Sea Level + ~3000 mtrs. There is a serious degradation of performance beyond ~3000 mtrs in most cases.

Very rarely will a manufacturer have charts and figures for helicopters beyond 18,000 feet. Mostly, they cannot even test for those altitudes. Hence, one does not find figures. Extrapolated charts are the best way to go.

One very good analysis of helicopter performances for Light Helicopter role is available at Vivek Ahuja's blog though V22 is not covered here : http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.in/.

For the HAL LUH analysis please click here http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.in/2015/04/the-indian-light-utility-helicopter.html

(Sorry of already posted here)

 

[Zebra]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...lor-as-common-attack-utility-platform-414269/

Bell sees V-280 Valor as common attack-utility platform

By: James Drew
Washington DC
Source: Flightglobal.com
21:18 2 Jul 2015


Bell Helicopter and Lockheed Martin’s third-generator tiltrotor aircraft demonstrator, the V-280 Valor, might still be under construction for the US Army, but already the future vertical lift (FVL) contestant is morphing into a mid-weight, utility-attack platform.

Those attending a land warfare exposition by the Association of the United States Army in October are likely to see a V-280 mock-up on display as a utility platform one day and an attack variant the next. And, perhaps on the third day it will transform again into a medical evacuation platform.

Despite army desires to build two separate, specialised vertical-lift platforms to start replacing the Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk and Boeing AH-64 Apache in the 2030s, Bell thinks both missions could be performed by one identical or near-identical rotorcraft based on the Valor design.........