US Denies Transfer of Critical Technology and F-16 Fighter Production in India

[Cutting Edge 2]

A radical proposition is being evaluated -Mk2-S
The Mk2-S is the dual engine variant of Tejas and is said to have a similar wing design as the SE MK2. Essentially it will have more power to boost.

Its not possible to make twin engine LCA without doing massive changes in airframe design. The result will be a different airplane altogether. Such development will take 10 to 15 years (global average for new design) after official sanction from MoD. So we are looking at 2030-35 time frame at earliest. That means around 2040 for effective numbers. What good a 4th gen twin engine bird will be in this time frame. Not to mention this time line overlaps with AMCA. We don't have resources or need to develop two MCAs at the same time.

On top of this IAF has no requirement for such bird. They are all sold on 5th gen bandwagon. According to sources IAF is not even interested in MK2. They want 1a to fill numbers and skip to AMCA for future. So FGFA, AMCA post 2030 and Rafale, MK1a (maybe MII SE??) post 2020.

Limited chance left for all foreign OEMs.. whomosver comes will be the one who will design the internal of Mk2-S Tejas variant and will be twin engine powered (targeted Safranised Kaveri)

If Dassualt grabs it then Mk2-S will be mini Rafale ( @MilSpec).

Kaveri won't be Safranised if we don't give a large follow up order. They are holding back on many fronts. Parikar wanted French to show commitment towards ToT and French wanted commitment on large order before any serious ToT. So any chance of other OEMs for MMRCA is very unlikely and if they do, it will be a beginning from scratch.

The F16 and Gripen chances are reduced a lot with performance of Tejas....only left is when they will get inducted in large numbers..

SE requirement was stupid from beginning considering we have our very own SE ready for mass production.

Gripen a mixed pickle of an airplane, never had a real chance because they simply can't provide in-depth ToT that we require.

There are many reports of Trump dragging his feet on ToT but still I won't rule out MII F16 simply because LM has too much clout in DoD and with our current leadership being pro west this deal still has some chances of going through.

 

[kunal1123]

Its not possible to make twin engine LCA without doing massive changes in airframe design. The result will be a different airplane altogether. Such development will take 10 to 15 years (global average for new design) after official sanction from MoD. So we are looking at 2030-35 time frame at earliest. That means around 2040 for effective numbers. What good a 4th gen twin engine bird will be in this time frame. Not to mention this time line overlaps with AMCA. We don't have resources or need to develop two MCAs at the same time.

On top of this IAF has no requirement for such bird. They are all sold on 5th gen bandwagon. According to sources IAF is not even interested in MK2. They want 1a to fill numbers and skip to AMCA for future. So FGFA, AMCA post 2030 and Rafale, MK1a (maybe MII SE??) post 2020.

Well Thank u , i was begin to think that i am the only one to understand such basic concept about mk2.
even many old and well informed guy in this forum advocating for mk2 make me wonder. THE AMCA concept is came from what we are calling MK2.(That was called MCA that time twin engine Dealt wing medium aircraft).

SE requirement was stupid from beginning considering we have our very own SE ready for mass production.

As far SE aircraft requirement i will like to point out that it all linked to GE joint engine development , if any u guy remember that after modi-obma bromance the
Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) initiatives formed specially for two purpose (carrier and engine). and it was well understood then engine development is linked to fighter purchase, modi got two choice to make f/a-18 and f-16 he chose f-16 for much business prospective as USA line is going to shift to India ,make India sole for upgrading and USA got to sell f-16 in India but Obama not able to finalize and trump put full stop.
remember SE contract suppose to be out in DEC 2016 then increase to march -2017 and there is still no call to any vendor. why?? any one thinking that.?????

 

[Vijyes]

Well Thank u , i was begin to think that i am the only one to understand such basic concept about mk2.
even many old and well informed guy in this forum advocating for mk2 make me wonder. THE AMCA concept is came from what we are calling MK2.(That was called MCA that time twin engine Dealt wing medium aircraft).


As far SE aircraft requirement i will like to point out that it all linked to GE joint engine development , if any u guy remember that after modi-obma bromance the
Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) initiatives formed specially for two purpose (carrier and engine). and it was well understood then engine development is linked to fighter purchase, modi got two choice to make f/a-18 and f-16 he chose f-16 for much business prospective as USA line is going to shift to India ,make India sole for upgrading and USA got to sell f-16 in India but Obama not able to finalize and trump put full stop.
remember SE contract suppose to be out in DEC 2016 then increase to march -2017 and there is still no call to any vendor. why?? any one thinking that.?????

If USA agreed for engine ToT, India would even buy F5 planes or even buy garbage from USA for 3 billion dollars with engine ToT. The whole point here is that USA doesn't share technology with India.

India has to acquire radar, missile seekers either by indigenous efforts (progressing well) or from Israel. Israel is the most helpful country to India in terms of ToT.

 

[kunal1123]

If USA agreed for engine ToT, India would even buy F5 planes or even buy garbage from USA for 3 billion dollars with engine ToT. The whole point here is that USA doesn't share technology with India.

India has to acquire radar, missile seekers either by indigenous efforts (progressing well) or from Israel. Israel is the most helpful country to India in terms of ToT.

well all that modi-obama did is to solve that, - the engine is some what JV like bramose type deal with India will get right to use engine as we want and how much we want and GE produce component in India that was all it and was nearly at the end of nego. but cannot formalized(for reason only known to official) and after Obama goes all gone to cold storage .
if any one look that France offer come in time when there seem to problem with GE JV. basically France is a fall back option i think gov created, by increase in price of Rafael for engine.
have not seen any official-unofficial new about tot in France -kaveri deal. all it say that it will make our kaveri complete and worthy to fly in LCA (wonder how much kaveri is completed before it was pronounce dead,and after when it is in dead state) even the last official kaveri news come around 2008-2009 stating it produce 53+/81+ kn which is still less for LCA(official)

 

[HariPrasad-1]

A blessing in disguise, then.

Modi should pretend to be very upset and extract some concessions out of miserly paranoid Uncle Sam.

Are u water car engineer of PDF?

 

[Vijyes]

well all that modi-obama did is to solve that, - the engine is some what JV like bramose type deal with India will get right to use engine as we want and how much we want and GE produce component in India that was all it and was nearly at the end of nego. but cannot formalized(for reason only known to official) and after Obama goes all gone to cold storage .
if any one look that France offer come in time when there seem to problem with GE JV. basically France is a fall back option i think gov created, by increase in price of Rafael for engine.
have not seen any official-unofficial new about tot in France -kaveri deal. all it say that it will make our kaveri complete and worthy to fly in LCA (wonder how much kaveri is completed before it was pronounce dead,and after when it is in dead state) even the last official kaveri news come around 2008-2009 stating it produce 53+/81+ kn which is still less for LCA(official)

Kaveri engine was not completed because congress refused funding

 

[kunal1123]

Kaveri engine was not completed because congress refused funding

that not the point all i am saying that kaveri official info dried up after it dilink from LCA and no crediable sourcce point out how much progress made from 2008-09 level. every time we start to find forien help in entier kaveri program always safran selected and always not materialism and even it pronounced dead i heard news on various platform that scientist not happy and they kept working on it from internal resources. nobody have any idea about progress and no clear info what safran is doing in kaveri make me wonder..??

 

[Vijyes]

that not the point all i am saying that kaveri official info dried up after it dilink from LCA and no crediable sourcce point out how much progress made from 2008-09 level. every time we start to find forien help in entier kaveri program always safran selected and always not materialism and even it pronounced dead i heard news on various platform that scientist not happy and they kept working on it from internal resources. nobody have any idea about progress and no clear info what safran is doing in kaveri make me wonder..??

Kaveri was pronounced dead only in Media. Parrikar had made it clear that it is his dream Project.

 

[kunal1123]

Kaveri was pronounced dead only in Media. Parrikar had made it clear that it is his dream Project.

well don't know about it as all info regarding kaveri is ambiguous as i said .....
let hope to see kaveri flies in LCA OR AMCA ................

 

[charlie]

If USA agreed for engine ToT, India would even buy F5 planes or even buy garbage from USA for 3 billion dollars with engine ToT. The whole point here is that USA doesn't share technology with India.

India has to acquire radar, missile seekers either by indigenous efforts (progressing well) or from Israel. Israel is the most helpful country to India in terms of ToT.

Defence industry in Russian and US are quite different, In Russia top bureaucracy takes decision, In US it's the MSME or the contractor wish to share the tech once it's get permission to do so.

for e.g. harris makes those AIDEWS ALQ-211 system, and they won't share the tech with anyone (even if US asked them) as it's pitching for the upgraded version for F35 and it's manufactured only in US. (as far as I know no MSME or defence contractor will do that unless they are going to stop manufacturing that product)

They almost have a monopoly in US with this system (because of their one more system that they just built for F18 growler which negates their own jamming)

What's the benefit for them to give India TOT and make a competitor for future ? when they can keep selling to 10 different countries without any competition.

 

[Kchontha]

USA doesn't transfer cutting edge technology to any country rather they dump old and outdated technology. They do business and in business there is no friends or allies; all are customers. For instance, in spite of buying f35 American refuses to part with some critical fifth gen techs to its closest allies like south Korea or Japan. They will dump old tech to a country when that country is on the verge of technological breakthrough, for example tranfer of f16 production line to India when India will be having more capable Tejas mk1a/2.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Well Thank u , i was begin to think that i am the only one to understand such basic concept about mk2.
even many old and well informed guy in this forum advocating for mk2 make me wonder. THE AMCA concept is came from what we are calling MK2.(That was called MCA that time twin engine Dealt wing medium aircraft).


As far SE aircraft requirement i will like to point out that it all linked to GE joint engine development , if any u guy remember that after modi-obma bromance the
Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) initiatives formed specially for two purpose (carrier and engine). and it was well understood then engine development is linked to fighter purchase, modi got two choice to make f/a-18 and f-16 he chose f-16 for much business prospective as USA line is going to shift to India ,make India sole for upgrading and USA got to sell f-16 in India but Obama not able to finalize and trump put full stop.
remember SE contract suppose to be out in DEC 2016 then increase to march -2017 and there is still no call to any vendor. why?? any one thinking that.?????

Yup, During Obama days there were sources talking about engine deal. Framework for that engine was similar to safranised Kaveri. GE would provide core and iron out any other issues with Kaveri. So we would get full control of engine. You can call it semi indigenisation of engine, not full TOT. The idea was that in future when we have developed our own technology then we can simply replace those GE parts without much modification to engine. In return we promised to give US huge defence contracts and some other favours. The initial idea of MII SE came from that deal.

Safran was our plan B in case of GE deal failure. Under Trump chances of getting GE core is slim so GoI is going full steam ahead with Safran. According to sources MoD is in wait and watch mode regarding its progress. If Dassault delivers then they will be nicely rewarded.

All those efforts were done to jumpstart Kaveri program which was going no where under UPA.

Coming to F16 deal. It looks like Trump would be hard nut to crack but not impossible. I am saying this because LM has lot of political clout in US. They have a strong lobby and they can get lot of things done. If you remember, in beginning Trump was against buying more F35. At one point he even considered upgraded F18 but with tremendous pressure from LM lobby he became silent on the issue. So when it comes to F16 its not over until its over. I think LM will try to convince GoI in one way or another. I would say wait and watch.

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

Well Thank u , i was begin to think that i am the only one to understand such basic concept about mk2.
even many old and well informed guy in this forum advocating for mk2 make me wonder. THE AMCA concept is came from what we are calling MK2.(That was called MCA that time twin engine Dealt wing medium aircraft).


As far SE aircraft requirement i will like to point out that it all linked to GE joint engine development , if any u guy remember that after modi-obma bromance the
Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) initiatives formed specially for two purpose (carrier and engine). and it was well understood then engine development is linked to fighter purchase, modi got two choice to make f/a-18 and f-16 he chose f-16 for much business prospective as USA line is going to shift to India ,make India sole for upgrading and USA got to sell f-16 in India but Obama not able to finalize and trump put full stop.
remember SE contract suppose to be out in DEC 2016 then increase to march -2017 and there is still no call to any vendor. why?? any one thinking that.?????

Mk2 was originally Navy's proposal. IN wanted MK2 with more powerful engine and better landing gear for carrier based operations.

IAF was never interested beyond MK1. Even MK1 was not getting any serious consideration. When MoD tried to force IAF to buy LCA in big numbers they simply refused and sent a long list of things missing from LCA. MoD (Parikar) had meeting with ADA and HAL and they suggested that instead of making a new plane(which would take decade or two), most requirements can be fullfiled with some modification in existing plane. Thus MK1a was born. IAF couldn't refuse this new proposal, they were getting everything they asked for so they had to commit the order. So IAF is getting MK1, MK1a and then straight to AMCA.

Coming back to Navy. They too are now having second thoughts on MK2. They are now considering twin engine plane for carrier operations. So you can be assured that MK2 development is now in cold storage.

AMCA is the correct path to future. We need an indigenous 5th gen bird post 2030. All major powers are now developing/developed 5th gen birds including our eastern neighbour. Post 2030 5th gen birds will be commonplace and pursuing 4th gen project in that time would be like like developing MIG-21 in 2010. There are rumours about SU-57 deal with Russia. This deal if executed properly, will greatly help us developing AMCA.

 

[Immanuel]

LCA twin engine is an old idea, it's already been studied to be an extensive change to the existing aircraft, let alone to go through the entire process of testing and certification, it won't happen. AMCA will be ready in those time lines. F-16 never really had a chance, I wouldn't bet on Gripen either, there is considerable pressure to instead focus on ramping up LCA in big numbers. As for GaN tech, we are still around a good 8-10 years away from field deployments of GaN based radars while US is already deploying them on new gen Patriot Radars, to say we are catching up is a rather bloated joke, even the French are a good 4-5 years away from fielding it.

Expect a pivot from LM towards the F-35 which will eventually be offered with some basic tot, local assembly etc.

 

[kunal1123]

Mk2 was originally Navy's proposal. IN wanted MK2 with more powerful engine and better landing gear for carrier based operations.

IAF was never interested beyond MK1. Even MK1 was not getting any serious consideration. When MoD tried to force IAF to buy LCA in big numbers they simply refused and sent a long list of things missing from LCA. MoD (Parikar) had meeting with ADA and HAL and they suggested that instead of making a new plane(which would take decade or two), most requirements can be fullfiled with some modification in existing plane. Thus MK1a was born. IAF couldn't refuse this new proposal, they were getting everything they asked for so they had to commit the order. So IAF is getting MK1, MK1a and then straight to AMCA.

actually u misunderstood me i am not taking about current mk2 which is purposed for IN. but about all these guys taking about twin engine LCA(aka MK2) but i don't think it is good idea to stop development even as less as 40 plane order it is still good to develop and deploy a next version because then u actually complete a complete cycle for fighter aircraft development and deployment.

LCA twin engine is an old idea, it's already been studied to be an extensive change to the existing aircraft, let alone to go through the entire process of testing and certification, it won't happen. AMCA will be ready in those time lines.

twin engine LCA(aka MCA) was the original idea for AMCA

As for GaN tec-h, we are still around a good 8-10 years but yaa 3--away from field deployments of GaN based radars

i will not say 8-10 but year around 2-4 year behind . and gaN radar is the up-gradation on current ASEA radar

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

actually u misunderstood me i am not taking about current mk2 which is purposed for IN. but about all these guys taking about twin engine LCA(aka MK2) but i don't think it is good idea to stop development even as less as 40 plane order it is still good to develop and deploy a next version because then u actually complete a complete cycle for fighter aircraft development and deployment.


twin engine LCA(aka MCA) was the original idea for AMCA

i will not say 8-10 but year around 2-4 year behind . and gaN radar is the up-gradation on current ASEA radar

You'd be surpriced to know that idea of twin engine bird is as old as LCA itself. Originally IAF wanted MCA from beginning but because of budgetary constraints they thought it would be cheaper to make SE to fill numbers. Not to mention success of SE planes like F-16 and Mirage 2000. So plans for MCA was halved in favour of SE. They thought it would be easy to make twin engine MCA based on LCA design, something similar to Mirage 4000 . So twin engine MK2 (as mostly rumoured) was actually old MCA idea. Later they realised it would not be an easy task and LCA too has its own flaws so that idea was discarded and slowly MCA program morphed into more advance program called AMCA. So AMCA is MCA.

MK2 (SE IN) was intermediate solution until we develop true MCA. But now IN too has come to realisation that why navies around the world prefer twin engine jet for carrier operation. So they too are less interested in jugad (MK2) and want real MCA. It is a natural evolution of our indigenous fighter program. Experienced and technology gained by LCA will go into AMCA project. BTW this doesn't mean LCA for IN is dead. IN can still further develop and use LCA for training and costal defence role. They are only reconsidering LCA for carrier based role.

 

[Vijyes]

LCA twin engine is an old idea, it's already been studied to be an extensive change to the existing aircraft, let alone to go through the entire process of testing and certification, it won't happen. AMCA will be ready in those time lines. F-16 never really had a chance, I wouldn't bet on Gripen either, there is considerable pressure to instead focus on ramping up LCA in big numbers. As for GaN tech, we are still around a good 8-10 years away from field deployments of GaN based radars while US is already deploying them on new gen Patriot Radars, to say we are catching up is a rather bloated joke, even the French are a good 4-5 years away from fielding it.

Expect a pivot from LM towards the F-35 which will eventually be offered with some basic tot, local assembly etc.

GaN radar hasn't been fully deployed by any country as of now. India is working with Israel since 2015-16 to develop it while at the same time perfecting AESA radar with air to ground system from ELTA. It will be about 2025 when India will have GaN AESA radars. What matters is not if India has radars or technology now or as soon as possible but if India has technology by 2030 for almost all the defense equipment including planes, radars, missiles, submarines and helicopters. As long as 2030 deadlines is maintained, there is no reason to go gaga. If 2030 is not maintained, then there will be problems.

 

[no smoking]

If USA agreed for engine ToT, India would even buy F5 planes or even buy garbage from USA for 3 billion dollars with engine ToT. The whole point here is that USA doesn't share technology with India.

3 billion dollars? Times that figure by 10 before thinking about engine TOT.

India has to acquire radar, missile seekers either by indigenous efforts (progressing well) or from Israel. Israel is the most helpful country to India in terms of ToT.

Israel won't sell any technologies to India without US permission.

 

[Immanuel]

GaN based Patriot radars have quietly been moved to the Pacific theater in readiness for any action in relation to NK

 

[captscooby81]

Are we going to see a possible action by the next week in the SCS region ??? if this mad kid flashes his missile again into the waters near Guam ????

GaN based Patriot radars have quietly been moved to the Pacific theater in readiness for any action in relation to NK