LurkerBaba
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I've added an anonymous poll.
So whats up with Bo Xilai
- Thread starter trackwhack
- Start date
nimo_cn
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So if we don't participate in a stupid poll conducted by a stupid Indian who knows nothing about China, we are supposed to be coward?
Good bait, but sorry I don't bite that.
trackwhack
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Whats stupid, Straightforward questions and options. You are just chicken. Admit it
baoxilai favor commy/socilism, he want equality for all.
this is from another forum
The Chongqing Model: Equal Slices vs The Market-Driven Guangdong Model
Chinese children celebrate the Communist Party in Chongqing municipality in March. Bo Xilai, the region's party secretary who is vying for a place in the Politburo Standing Committee, espouses a government-intervention model to economics.
Enlarge STR/AFP/Getty Images
November 6, 2011
What goes on inside China's leadership is usually played out behind the closed oxblood doors of the compound where the top leaders live. This year, though, a political debate has sprung out in the open — and it has leaders and constituents considering how to move forward politically.
This ideological debate comes as China gears up for a once-in-a-decade political transition. The country's future top leaders seem almost certain, with Xi Jinping in line for president and Li Keqiang on track for premier. Horse-trading is under way for other leadership positions, however, sparking a debate that could define China's future.
The Chongqing Model: Equal Slices
In recent months, the streets of the city of Chongqing have been ringing with song. These are not spontaneous outbreaks; they're government-mandated sessions, requiring employees to "sing the red," patriotic songs praising China.
This is a leftist vision of China's future, with powerful echoes of its Maoist past.
It's the brainchild of Bo Xilai, Chongqing's party secretary and the son of a revolutionary elder, Bo Yibo, one of the "eight immortals" of Communist China. Bo Xilai has taken a three-pronged approach by "smashing the black," or attacking corruption and organized crime, with what some say is a disregard for the rule of law. His approach also includes putting in place measures to help those left behind by China's economic boom.
"The government intervenes to correct the shortcomings of the market economy," says Yang Fan, a conservative-leaning scholar at China University of Political Science and Law and co-author of a book about the Chongqing model.
"There are projects to improve people's livelihood by letting migrant workers come to the city, by building them cheap rental places and allowing them to sell their land to come to the city," he says.
This is where it comes to what's been dubbed "cake theory." If the cake is China's economy, the Chongqing model concentrates on dividing the cake more equally.
Guangdong party secretary Wang Yang is taking a different approach from Chongqing's secretary. Wang follows a more market-oriented, liberal strategy.
Enlarge Louisa Lim/NPR
Guangdong party secretary Wang Yang is taking a different approach from Chongqing's secretary. Wang follows a more market-oriented, liberal strategy.
The Market-Driven Guangdong Model
The competing vision, based in the province of Guangdong, focuses on making the cake bigger first, not dividing it. In economic terms, the Guangdong model is a more market-driven approach, pushing forward development ahead of addressing inequality.
"The Guangdong model aims to solve the concerns of the middle class," says Qiu Feng, a liberal academic from the Unirule Institute of Economics. "It's about building society and rule of law. It wants to give the middle class institutionalized channels to take part in the political process. Its basic thought is co-opting the middle class."
He says the "Happy Guangdong" approach is aimed not at those left behind, but at those who have profited from the economic boom.
Guangdong's party secretary, Wang Yang, has criticized the Chongqing model, saying people need to study and review Communist Party history, "rather than just singing of its brilliance." In political terms, he's throwing down the gauntlet at his rival, Bo Xilai.
Finding A Way Forward
Both these politicians are fighting for a place — and influence — inside the holiest of holies: the Politburo Standing Committee. This comes against a background of criticism of the current leadership from a surprising quarter.
"The bureaucracy is corrupt. Power has been marketized. Governance has been industrialized," says Zhang Musheng, a consummate insider. "Local governments are becoming riddled with gangsters."
Zhang's father was secretary to China's Premier Zhou Enlai. This makes him what's known as a "princeling." He's attended a number of meetings held by children of former leaders, where criticism of the current leadership has been aired.
Despite their grievances, they came to one conclusion.
"China's such a complicated society. Right now, it can't leave the Communist Party. So the Communist Party must reform and improve," Zhang says. "Although it's criticized, right now there is no social force which can replace the Communist Party."
Those are the key questions: how to reform or even if the Communist Party can reach consensus over which model it follows.
From One Party, Varied Interests Emerge
The professor who literally wrote the book on the Chongqing model, Yang Fan, says while the approach had early benefits in its first three years of operation, he now fears it is becoming too dependent on just one man.
Academic Qiu Feng suggests that factions may become institutionalized inside China's Communist Party, leading to a possible split into two parties.
Enlarge Louisa Lim/NPR
Academic Qiu Feng suggests that factions may become institutionalized inside China's Communist Party, leading to a possible split into two parties.
"Bo Xilai still has no concept of democracy. I don't agree with the singing-red-songs movement. It's too over the top. Enough is enough," Yang says. "He did it to regain the authority and legitimacy of the Communist Party. ... It may work while Bo Xilai is in charge, but once he leaves, this cannot keep working."
Qiu of the Unirule Institute of Economics believes that the existence of the Chongqing model and the Guangdong model, with their different constituencies, has sharpened the debate.
"These two models have made people conscious of the factions. They will seriously consider which model they support," Qiu says. "An even bolder prediction is that maybe the Communist Party could split along those lines, and become two parties: one for the middle class, let's call it a Liberal Party; the other for the lower class, the Democratic Party."
As China's Communist leadership celebrated the anniversary of the 1911 revolution, it's no longer monolithic. Nowadays the Communist Party is a seething mass of different — sometimes overlapping — interest groups. That means it could be harder for the next generation of leaders to make policy.
"My conclusion is I don't think the Communist Party can settle upon one political program that everyone will follow," Qiu says.
Still, all agree that what's significant is that there is true debate about China's future political direction, and this time much of the debate is being played out in public.
this is from another forum
The Chongqing Model: Equal Slices vs The Market-Driven Guangdong Model
Chinese children celebrate the Communist Party in Chongqing municipality in March. Bo Xilai, the region's party secretary who is vying for a place in the Politburo Standing Committee, espouses a government-intervention model to economics.
Enlarge STR/AFP/Getty Images
November 6, 2011
What goes on inside China's leadership is usually played out behind the closed oxblood doors of the compound where the top leaders live. This year, though, a political debate has sprung out in the open — and it has leaders and constituents considering how to move forward politically.
This ideological debate comes as China gears up for a once-in-a-decade political transition. The country's future top leaders seem almost certain, with Xi Jinping in line for president and Li Keqiang on track for premier. Horse-trading is under way for other leadership positions, however, sparking a debate that could define China's future.
The Chongqing Model: Equal Slices
In recent months, the streets of the city of Chongqing have been ringing with song. These are not spontaneous outbreaks; they're government-mandated sessions, requiring employees to "sing the red," patriotic songs praising China.
This is a leftist vision of China's future, with powerful echoes of its Maoist past.
It's the brainchild of Bo Xilai, Chongqing's party secretary and the son of a revolutionary elder, Bo Yibo, one of the "eight immortals" of Communist China. Bo Xilai has taken a three-pronged approach by "smashing the black," or attacking corruption and organized crime, with what some say is a disregard for the rule of law. His approach also includes putting in place measures to help those left behind by China's economic boom.
"The government intervenes to correct the shortcomings of the market economy," says Yang Fan, a conservative-leaning scholar at China University of Political Science and Law and co-author of a book about the Chongqing model.
"There are projects to improve people's livelihood by letting migrant workers come to the city, by building them cheap rental places and allowing them to sell their land to come to the city," he says.
This is where it comes to what's been dubbed "cake theory." If the cake is China's economy, the Chongqing model concentrates on dividing the cake more equally.
Guangdong party secretary Wang Yang is taking a different approach from Chongqing's secretary. Wang follows a more market-oriented, liberal strategy.
Enlarge Louisa Lim/NPR
Guangdong party secretary Wang Yang is taking a different approach from Chongqing's secretary. Wang follows a more market-oriented, liberal strategy.
The Market-Driven Guangdong Model
The competing vision, based in the province of Guangdong, focuses on making the cake bigger first, not dividing it. In economic terms, the Guangdong model is a more market-driven approach, pushing forward development ahead of addressing inequality.
"The Guangdong model aims to solve the concerns of the middle class," says Qiu Feng, a liberal academic from the Unirule Institute of Economics. "It's about building society and rule of law. It wants to give the middle class institutionalized channels to take part in the political process. Its basic thought is co-opting the middle class."
He says the "Happy Guangdong" approach is aimed not at those left behind, but at those who have profited from the economic boom.
Guangdong's party secretary, Wang Yang, has criticized the Chongqing model, saying people need to study and review Communist Party history, "rather than just singing of its brilliance." In political terms, he's throwing down the gauntlet at his rival, Bo Xilai.
Finding A Way Forward
Both these politicians are fighting for a place — and influence — inside the holiest of holies: the Politburo Standing Committee. This comes against a background of criticism of the current leadership from a surprising quarter.
"The bureaucracy is corrupt. Power has been marketized. Governance has been industrialized," says Zhang Musheng, a consummate insider. "Local governments are becoming riddled with gangsters."
Zhang's father was secretary to China's Premier Zhou Enlai. This makes him what's known as a "princeling." He's attended a number of meetings held by children of former leaders, where criticism of the current leadership has been aired.
Despite their grievances, they came to one conclusion.
"China's such a complicated society. Right now, it can't leave the Communist Party. So the Communist Party must reform and improve," Zhang says. "Although it's criticized, right now there is no social force which can replace the Communist Party."
Those are the key questions: how to reform or even if the Communist Party can reach consensus over which model it follows.
From One Party, Varied Interests Emerge
The professor who literally wrote the book on the Chongqing model, Yang Fan, says while the approach had early benefits in its first three years of operation, he now fears it is becoming too dependent on just one man.
Academic Qiu Feng suggests that factions may become institutionalized inside China's Communist Party, leading to a possible split into two parties.
Enlarge Louisa Lim/NPR
Academic Qiu Feng suggests that factions may become institutionalized inside China's Communist Party, leading to a possible split into two parties.
"Bo Xilai still has no concept of democracy. I don't agree with the singing-red-songs movement. It's too over the top. Enough is enough," Yang says. "He did it to regain the authority and legitimacy of the Communist Party. ... It may work while Bo Xilai is in charge, but once he leaves, this cannot keep working."
Qiu of the Unirule Institute of Economics believes that the existence of the Chongqing model and the Guangdong model, with their different constituencies, has sharpened the debate.
"These two models have made people conscious of the factions. They will seriously consider which model they support," Qiu says. "An even bolder prediction is that maybe the Communist Party could split along those lines, and become two parties: one for the middle class, let's call it a Liberal Party; the other for the lower class, the Democratic Party."
As China's Communist leadership celebrated the anniversary of the 1911 revolution, it's no longer monolithic. Nowadays the Communist Party is a seething mass of different — sometimes overlapping — interest groups. That means it could be harder for the next generation of leaders to make policy.
"My conclusion is I don't think the Communist Party can settle upon one political program that everyone will follow," Qiu says.
Still, all agree that what's significant is that there is true debate about China's future political direction, and this time much of the debate is being played out in public.
nimo_cn
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Why do we have to prove our courage by participating in your poll?
Explain that odd logic first, then we talk about the poll.
LurkerBaba
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Stop making it an "Chinese" vs "Indian" issue. This is your personal opinion, you're not an official representative of all Chinese netizens
trackwhack
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If you dont want to participate, dont. No one is forcing you to.
I can bet you that not all chinese members agree to the decision to axe Bo. And by extension of that sample, not all Chinese citizens agree to the decision. And Bo Xilai is not some village head to be pushed over so easily. If he decides that he will fight, the CCP is staring down the barrell because this can spiral out of control with all other activists joining in.
Also consider the fact that the Gini co-eff in China crossed 50 last year. Thats a full 10 points higher than in the US where the wall street protests are highlighting the 1% 99% divide. And Bo stands for a cause that says the growth model is worsening the Gini and policy changes are needed to break that trend. You think he wont have popular support? You think this debate is not important. Or is your 50 cent agenda to talk down these discussions across the net sphere? And there are thousands of such discussions going on right now and you know that.
Be afraid CCP, be very afraid. If Bo decides to fight, there are some interesting few days ahead of us.
Bhadra
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China's state and social media have reacted swiftly to the sacking of Bo Xilai,
a prominent leader who had been tipped to win a top post after a major leadership change expected later this year.
The news however came too late for early newspaper editions, which focused largely on Premier Wen Jiabao's news conference following a parliamentary annual session held yesterday morning.
There has been intense speculation about Bo Xilai's position since February when his former chief of police spent a few hours at a US consulate in Sichuan Province, provoking rumours that he was seeking asylum. He is also thought to have upset some in the leadership with a high profile campaign against corruption and a revival of Maoist ideology.
Cautious on sacking
Beijing's China Central Television (CCTV-1) channel reported the news as the fifth item in its lunchtime bulletin. "Appointment of comrade in charge of Chongqing municipal committee adjusted" said the announcer of the channel's news programme.
Although the programme led with domestic news such as the latest consumer price index, the Bo Xilai news came before top international news.
The wording of a brief report carried by state-run news agency Xinhua was also restrained. The report did not elaborate beyond saying that Bo would be replaced by Vice-Premier Zhang Dejiang.
The Hong Kong-based news agency Zhongguo Tongxun She (ZTS) cited in its special article a commentary by Ye Duchu, Professor at the Party School of the CPC Central Committee, who said that Bo Xilai's removal reflects the CPC Central Committee's emphasis on holding local leaders responsible.
Social media divided
But the news of Bo Xilai prompted an outpouring on Chinese social media sites.
According to a report in the Taipei-based Want China Times (English-version), there was an "immediate frenzied online discussion", attracting about 190,000 posts on the country's main microblogging platforms Tencent Weibo and Sina Weibo "within four hours" of the announcement.
According the paper, the number shows that China's internet users are becoming increasingly emboldened to discuss politics online, despite new rules requiring users to register their real identities.
Most users of Tencent Weibo were supportive of Mr Bo, according to the paper.
"Bo is a good official busting gangs and crime but displeased too many villains like [former premier] Zhu Rongji," a user, identifying himself as Zhang Haotian, said.
But there were also critical posts on the Sina Weibo microblogging site. Xu Pu argues that Bo Xilai was trying to take Chongqing back to the era of Cultural Revolution "when people could be charged with a crime without any evidence".
"His crackdown on organised crimes has come at the expense of the rule of law. His terror has frightened everyone," his post said.
On Sina Weibo there was also speculation on the part of TV host Hu Ziwei who wrote: "We must re-evaluate the speech made by Premier Wen yesterday ... Wang Lijun [the controversial police chief] must have revealed some secrets, otherwise this decision would not have been made so quickly."
A user on the BBC Chinese forum, who was writing from Dalian, said: "Anybody who is against corruption goes quickly. Actually Bo is a very westernised leader."
Opinion is mixed and Mr Bo certainly aroused a variety of emotions, but some users reserved their praise or condemnation for the secretive workings of China's political system.
Fan Zhongxin, a professor at the Hangzhou Normal University wrote: "Bo Xilai has been sacked, and his back-pedalling has been stopped! Hope has re-emerged in China, and political reform is likely!"
On the other hand there was cynicism about the murky handling of the case.
Wang Cailiang, a lawyer, described the affair as a"child's play". "The reshuffle of official posts are decided by factions, and has nothing to do with the rule of law, democracy or people's livelihoods."
Prof Xie Youping at Fudan University said the case reflected the secrecy of Chinese politics. "Chinese politics is in grave need for democracy and openness," he wrote on Weibo.
New era of "openness'"
The news of sacking came too late for early newspapers editions, which focused overwhelmingly on Premier Wen Jiabao's news conference following an annual parliament session during which he called for urgent economic and political reforms in a bid to avoid another "cultural revolution".
The only reference to Bo came in an editorial in Beijing's Huanqiu Shibao (Global Times), which praised his "frank" approach and willingness to speak openly - a move seen as highly unusual in Chinese politics - about the controversy surrounding a recent visit by his former police chief, Wang Lijun, to the US consulate.
This, and Premier Wen's move to address some "personal issues" in his speech, heralded in a new era of openness and showed the leadership's willingness to "interact with society", the paper suggested.
Later in the morning, the paper's English language version cited a Xinhua report on the replacement.
The daily reminded the readers that Premier Wen Jiabao told the news conference yesterday that the authorities in Chongqing "must reflect on and draw lessons from the Wang Lijun incident."
BBC Monitoring selects and translates news from radio, television, press, news agencies and the internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages. It is based in Caversham, UK, and has several bureaux abroad.
hina state media curt on Bo sacking, social media divided
a prominent leader who had been tipped to win a top post after a major leadership change expected later this year.
The news however came too late for early newspaper editions, which focused largely on Premier Wen Jiabao's news conference following a parliamentary annual session held yesterday morning.
There has been intense speculation about Bo Xilai's position since February when his former chief of police spent a few hours at a US consulate in Sichuan Province, provoking rumours that he was seeking asylum. He is also thought to have upset some in the leadership with a high profile campaign against corruption and a revival of Maoist ideology.
Cautious on sacking
Beijing's China Central Television (CCTV-1) channel reported the news as the fifth item in its lunchtime bulletin. "Appointment of comrade in charge of Chongqing municipal committee adjusted" said the announcer of the channel's news programme.
Although the programme led with domestic news such as the latest consumer price index, the Bo Xilai news came before top international news.
The wording of a brief report carried by state-run news agency Xinhua was also restrained. The report did not elaborate beyond saying that Bo would be replaced by Vice-Premier Zhang Dejiang.
The Hong Kong-based news agency Zhongguo Tongxun She (ZTS) cited in its special article a commentary by Ye Duchu, Professor at the Party School of the CPC Central Committee, who said that Bo Xilai's removal reflects the CPC Central Committee's emphasis on holding local leaders responsible.
Social media divided
But the news of Bo Xilai prompted an outpouring on Chinese social media sites.
According to a report in the Taipei-based Want China Times (English-version), there was an "immediate frenzied online discussion", attracting about 190,000 posts on the country's main microblogging platforms Tencent Weibo and Sina Weibo "within four hours" of the announcement.
According the paper, the number shows that China's internet users are becoming increasingly emboldened to discuss politics online, despite new rules requiring users to register their real identities.
Most users of Tencent Weibo were supportive of Mr Bo, according to the paper.
"Bo is a good official busting gangs and crime but displeased too many villains like [former premier] Zhu Rongji," a user, identifying himself as Zhang Haotian, said.
But there were also critical posts on the Sina Weibo microblogging site. Xu Pu argues that Bo Xilai was trying to take Chongqing back to the era of Cultural Revolution "when people could be charged with a crime without any evidence".
"His crackdown on organised crimes has come at the expense of the rule of law. His terror has frightened everyone," his post said.
On Sina Weibo there was also speculation on the part of TV host Hu Ziwei who wrote: "We must re-evaluate the speech made by Premier Wen yesterday ... Wang Lijun [the controversial police chief] must have revealed some secrets, otherwise this decision would not have been made so quickly."
A user on the BBC Chinese forum, who was writing from Dalian, said: "Anybody who is against corruption goes quickly. Actually Bo is a very westernised leader."
Opinion is mixed and Mr Bo certainly aroused a variety of emotions, but some users reserved their praise or condemnation for the secretive workings of China's political system.
Fan Zhongxin, a professor at the Hangzhou Normal University wrote: "Bo Xilai has been sacked, and his back-pedalling has been stopped! Hope has re-emerged in China, and political reform is likely!"
On the other hand there was cynicism about the murky handling of the case.
Wang Cailiang, a lawyer, described the affair as a"child's play". "The reshuffle of official posts are decided by factions, and has nothing to do with the rule of law, democracy or people's livelihoods."
Prof Xie Youping at Fudan University said the case reflected the secrecy of Chinese politics. "Chinese politics is in grave need for democracy and openness," he wrote on Weibo.
New era of "openness'"
The news of sacking came too late for early newspapers editions, which focused overwhelmingly on Premier Wen Jiabao's news conference following an annual parliament session during which he called for urgent economic and political reforms in a bid to avoid another "cultural revolution".
The only reference to Bo came in an editorial in Beijing's Huanqiu Shibao (Global Times), which praised his "frank" approach and willingness to speak openly - a move seen as highly unusual in Chinese politics - about the controversy surrounding a recent visit by his former police chief, Wang Lijun, to the US consulate.
This, and Premier Wen's move to address some "personal issues" in his speech, heralded in a new era of openness and showed the leadership's willingness to "interact with society", the paper suggested.
Later in the morning, the paper's English language version cited a Xinhua report on the replacement.
The daily reminded the readers that Premier Wen Jiabao told the news conference yesterday that the authorities in Chongqing "must reflect on and draw lessons from the Wang Lijun incident."
BBC Monitoring selects and translates news from radio, television, press, news agencies and the internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages. It is based in Caversham, UK, and has several bureaux abroad.
hina state media curt on Bo sacking, social media divided
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I don't think participating in a poll indicates courage.
It only indicates a democratic means to opinion!
I am sure that is alien to you - democracy and poll.
One understands your confusion.
Please don't participate!
We understand and even sympathise knowing that all this is too modern and novel for you to even fathom!
nrj
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Internal political crisis is the last thing PRC wants among all the other hostilities. Hope better sense prevails & chaos will reduce. I never thought if anything like this drama will occur out in public given CCP's historic performance.
However I don't understand the idea of this poll. Individuals from free world have opinion on every matter & it reflects in their national governance. But the poll is irrelevant for Chinese people. They are not used to idea of voting.
However I don't understand the idea of this poll. Individuals from free world have opinion on every matter & it reflects in their national governance. But the poll is irrelevant for Chinese people. They are not used to idea of voting.
nrj
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Glad to know that this much freedom is still allowed for Chinese population by their rulers. Hope it continues & they are able to express their views at least on online polls.
trackwhack
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nimo_cn
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trackwhack
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So we ask you for your opinion on a major incident in your political fraternity and you start sweating beads. Giving you the benefit of doubt that you arent a 50 center, how insecure are you man?
What makes you think we are considerate or passionate. Anything that shows even a hint of destroying the CCP is awesome news to us. Unless you are a slow, you would have figured that out already.
nimo_cn
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I never said I represent all Chinese members.
But I am certainly not pleased by your way of treating all Chinese members.
You want to know our opinions about this issue, but instead of asking for it politely you resort to goading us into that poll by calling us CPC army. If we were CPC army, why do you even care about our opinions?
nimo_cn
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Isn't that heartwarming?
nimo_cn
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Is that why you start this poll, to find out how many Chinese support Bo so that you can calculate the chance of Bo revolting against CPC? Nice!
LurkerBaba
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nimo_cn =/= All Chinese Netizens
trackwhack =/= All Indian Netizens
I've never said those words here You're trying to divert the thread yet again. Drumming up nationalism by trying to group "innocent" Chinese against "impolite, rude" Indians
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One can promote democracy only to people who want to be free.
Robots cannot be taught or given democracy!
It requires a free mind that can think beyond what is fed!
