Russia snubs India, postpones defence minister's visit to New Delhi

[Virendra]

One would always behave very practically when they have an upper hand and space to protect their interests.
But when tables are turned and the other side has that stand, one acts "Hey this is not fair !!" kind of emotional.

 

[p2prada]

If Russia sells AL-31 and RD-93, one supplier still controls the market in PAF, an important one at that since we can influence Russia. In case of a war, it is obvious that Russia would support India. Sanctions on the AL-31 would mean a pretty good deal for us.

It is ancient technology anyway. When we will end up with new 5th gen engines from Russia and France why get worried about 4th gen engines, at least we will have an idea about how good the J-10 can be with an engine we already know everything about. Same with the JF-17.

Other than that if Russia denies supply of either of the engines then PAF may be delayed a few years, but always have the option of falling back on the WS-13 and WS-10. So, for aircraft which will see service for 30 years, we will only bring a delay of 2 or 3 years. Russia will lose out on the money. India will lose out on the ability to influence PAF's ability to keep the aircraft flying over a longer period of time, 30 years. China will simply deliver later than usual.

Non delivery of the Russian engines will mean the WS-13 and WS-10 projects will be fast tracked and more resources will be spent on it. Nobody wants that, including Russia because more markets will open up for export with indigenous Chinese engines.

So, what would you prefer? PAF flying all their aircraft for the next 30 years on Russian engines which they(China) have limited technology on or aircraft with full control of the engines.

Logic people logic. It is advantageous to India if Pak and China are forced to import engines from Russia. Also let the Russians make money, they earned it after having spent the last 20 years of the cold war giving us free weapons.

 

[ice berg]

How you know they will fly with those engines for the next 30 years. For all you know, they could be stop gap until chinese engines are available.

And most airforces buy spares including engines. What makes you think they will be affected during a conflict. They could be in a storage somewhere.

And Polar bear gives nothing for free. You should know that by now.

 

[blank_quest]

How you know they will fly with those engines for the next 30 years. For all you know, they could be stop gap until chinese engines are available.

And most airforces buy spares including engines. What makes you think they will be affected during a conflict. They could be in a storage somewhere.

And Polar bear gives nothing for free. You should know that by now.

Tell that to your Paki friends

 

[opesys]

.......In case of a war, it is obvious that Russia would support India. Sanctions on the AL-31 would mean a pretty good deal for us.

Do you really think India would be able to influence Russia's decision ? I don't think Ruskies are the same now as they were in the 70s. They are watching carefully India doing deals with Israel and America.

Non delivery of the Russian engines will mean the WS-13 and WS-10 projects will be fast tracked and more resources will be spent on it. Nobody wants that, including Russia because more markets will open up for export with indigenous Chinese engines.

So, what would you prefer? PAF flying all their aircraft for the next 30 years on Russian engines which they(China) have limited technology on or aircraft with full control of the engines.
Logic people logic. It is advantageous to India if Pak and China are forced to import engines from Russia. Also let the Russians make money, they earned it after having spent the last 20 years of the cold war giving us free weapons.

Even though it sounds mean I still like this thought

 

[farhan_9909]

while pak might get more rd93 but i doubt about the al31 for j10.

Pakistan has already demanded rd93 overhaul facility.so no need of Russian in future when the Ws13 IS based on rd93 and is a much similar

we might get rd93ma for jft which has a 91.5kn thrust

while the jft 3 will have Ws13B.

Anyway
China can produce any sparepart for anything known TO EXIST in this world

 

[Dovah]

China can produce any sparepart for anything known TO EXIST in this world

And Pakistan rocks all the non existent stuff.

 

[chase]

I don' think we really need Russia. In 5 years India's defense budget will be bigger then Russia's and we have already sucked any possible technology we could have.
Now is the time when India is in the perfect condition to start it's own hi-tech R&D.

India can set aside $4-5 billion as a bribe to ruskies so that they don't sell any hi-tech stuff to Pakistan.Coupled with the poor state of pakistani economy this will keep russia from selling any hi-tech stuff to pakistan for atleast 15 years.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

One would always behave very practically when they have an upper hand and space to protect their interests.
But when tables are turned and the other side has that stand, one acts "Hey this is not fair !!" kind of emotional.

We need to shift strategic interests towards Israel and france give russia minimum
orders. They have orders for sukhois and PAKFA and are still acting like a 5 dollar
whore in defense.

 

[blank_quest]

while pak might get more rd93 but i doubt about the al31 for j10.

Pakistan has already demanded rd93 overhaul facility.so no need of Russian in future when the Ws13 IS based on rd93 and is a much similar

we might get rd93ma for jft which has a 91.5kn thrust

while the jft 3 will have Ws13B.

Anyway
China can produce any sparepart for anything known TO EXIST in this world

Pakistan demands bheek from every nation.

 

[Bangalorean]

^^ I have noticed more than once, that Pakis have this great sense of entitlement where they "demand" things from everyone in the world as if it is their birthright.

 

[cobra commando]

^^ I have noticed more than once, that Pakis have this great sense of entitlement where they "demand" things from everyone in the world as if it is their birthright.

Bcoz they are the "najayaz aulaad" u see

 

[p2prada]

How you know they will fly with those engines for the next 30 years. For all you know, they could be stop gap until chinese engines are available.

If you induct an aircraft with a particular engine, you will prefer to keep the same engine. Let's not forget new AL-31s were ordered by China for older aircraft.

And most airforces buy spares including engines. What makes you think they will be affected during a conflict. They could be in a storage somewhere.

You never know what may happen during service. Case in point IAF MKIs have issues in the FBW and engines, Russia is needed to fix them. The problems were identified after nearly 10 years of service. Similar problems may crop up for both JF-17 and J-10. Aircraft business does not come with guaranteed reliability.

Do you really think India would be able to influence Russia's decision ? I don't think Ruskies are the same now as they were in the 70s. They are watching carefully India doing deals with Israel and America.

I hardly doubt India can stop the re-export of the engines. During war Russia will follow Indian demands.

we might get rd93ma for jft which has a 91.5kn thrust

while the jft 3 will have Ws13B.

That's still 100 JF-17s with RD-93. If AL-31 is chosen for 40 J-10s, then that's still 40 J-10s. Quite a big number.

Anyway
China can produce any sparepart for anything known TO EXIST in this world

You will be surprised to know how complex engine designs are. Russian engines are mostly use and throw. Something gets spoilt, you will need new engines or even Russian support. Chinese support won't do anything here.

 

[opesys]

I hardly doubt India can stop the re-export of the engines. During war Russia will follow Indian demands.

I guess I didn't put it clearly...it's clear that India will not be able to stop re-export.... What I meant was even during war I don't think today's Ruskies will listen to India...they are not the same anymore... they are desperate for $$$...with enough money probably you can spend a night with Putin's young gf... Also now China is as good a "friend" to Russia as India is...If you look at Russia's stand in the middle east politics, they don't care anymore as to what is "right"... all they want to do is go against the US. If Pakistan,China is another ticket for them to go against the US for sure they will use it...

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Maybe Russia thinks Pakistan can help them in sales to Middle Eastern countries?

 

[spikey360]

If this is as true as it seems to be, the situation is quite regrettable. Russia of all countries, and Putin of all people would think twice before making a move that could/would cast doubts on the Indo-Russian bonhomie. Therefore, one can be assured that this doubt is exactly what Russia wants to create. They have probably signalled us that friendships come with a certain amount of loyalty. Sleeping with Russia at night and courting America and Israel by day, this Indian policy has not gone down well with them. This is not to say that they want to terminate the friendship, but they've certainly made us notice that not everything can be taken for granted.

Yes, we do have a full right to buy from America and Israel. But then again, we must not cry and make a big fuss about it if the Russians snub us for that. India recently has been a very bad friend of Russia. At least, that is how they see it- MMRCA, Hercules and Globemaster deals, Inconsistent and vague stand on Syria and generally speaking, warming of relations with the same US who some decades ago posed damning sanctions on us for nuclear programme while Russia opposed them and supported us althrough. These are reasons, imho, that made them feel slighted and thus the resulting posturing. It is regrettable how MMS is almost ruining this friendship.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Russia has been a very good friend? They are the ones who started this rift when they sold rd-93 engines
to Pakistan. Along with that they have also sold mid-air refuellers to Pakistan thru Ukraine. Russians have
repeatedly proven themselves to be unreliable in defense deals. If they want to lose there biggest customer
to gain a beggar charity case that is ok with us. I don't see any downside to losing Russia as a supplier
I think we have squeezed all the juice we can out of the Russian lemon. The gap between Russian tech
and Western tech has widened to a point where Russia has to buy boats from France and UAV's from Israel.
We know all the Russian platforms well it offers no advantage for Pak or China. Whole point of the MRCA was
to move away from Russian platforms since we have all Sukhois,MIG's and PAKFA.

 

[spikey360]

^^ Still think this says nothing about Russia not being a good friend.
Russia selling through Ukraine seems a bit absurd, though not completely impossible. Furthermore, this series of actions and reactions has India as the trigger. Things were still intact until the useless 123 nuclear deal happened. Can you blame anyone but the Congress government for this? What purpose has it served India save for opening up its `civilian` reactors to US inspectors and sending wrong signals to traditional friends like Russia and France. I think we should put things into perspective before prejudging the Russians and blaming them for it.

Friendship is not about squeezing someone's lemon and then throwing them away, India of all countries with such a long history should know this. It is true that the Russians have fallen behind in some sectors of military industry, but they are not a lost cause yet. I'm not suggesting we buy things from them we don't need just for the sake of friendship, all I'm suggesting is having the minimum civility of doing it in a manner befitting our long standing friendship. That is letting them know of the reasons for us not choosing them and not to ally with US overnight in a brazen manner and shout out how important the strategic relations between the two are. We can always have manners and India has completely failed to show manners in the last few years as far as our friendship with Russia is concerned.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

^^ Still think this says nothing about Russia not being a good friend.
Russia selling through Ukraine seems a bit absurd, though not completely impossible.

PAF gets IL-78 mid-air refueller aircraft

http://------------------------------/2009/12/paf-gets-mid-air-refueller-aircraft.html

The first Air-to-Air Refueler aircraft of Pakistan Air Force out of total four has arrived on an operational Air Base of the country, a spokesman of PAF here Saturday said. In a press statement the spokesman said, the delivery of remaining three Refueler aircraft is planned to complete by mid-2010.

By virtue of its capability to refuel Air Defence aircraft in air, PAF's overall potential in terms of its effectiveness to defend the airspace of Pakistan would be significantly enhanced, he added. After attaining the facility, Pakistan Air Force has formally joined the rank of those developed air forces which have already the air refilling system. An expert of the aviation industry welcomed this induction in PAF saying this is a force-multiplier ability as the strength of the existing number of fighter jets would atleast be doubled, straightaway.

 

[spikey360]

No doubt the Pakis have bought it. Am Merely saying that Russia reaping the economic benefits of this directly, is absurd. It is possible. But from the looks of it, Pakistan benefitted more from it than Russia. And this is all a part of the posture and counter posture that has been going on between India and Russia. However we will agree that India started it, won't we?

However, I still maintain, it says nothing about Russia not being a good friend. How good a friend/strategic partner have we been considering the things we have done and postures we have taken in the last 7 years or so?