Pak-Russia talks on delivery of Su-35, Mi-35s underway: Russian Deputy FM

[Compersion]

India has already given 100 Million dollars credit to Vietnam. Plus Vietnam is willing to buy brahmos so most probably it will be at least discounted.

As for now, these countries have not shown interest I believe, because not just funding but technical support and maintenance is other thing which they would require. So even if India gives them credit it will take time for them to get ready for these aircrafts.

Plus there is priority list, so India is feeding their Navy may be airforce is second on the priority list.

Russia needs India ... And much more in value to how they need PRC. The Russia and PRC relations is matter of convenience. Russia needs to manage its own affairs and stop thinking it is cold war again. Russia is a rich nation (with its oil and geography).

If such a news item (it being denied) is put out we also ought to put out some reports (that can be denied) like how russia and PRC relations and history is there and how PRC in its shiny office in shanghai looks down on russia. Russia leader was in prc for parade and that made prc look down on russia because no other world leader was there. Is russia role in the world such that they need to go to prc to claim any position. Why such news item being allowed like above. Sure our relations are strong. But why not deny reports like russia role in world is lesseoned after 1990s and PRC is making small efforts on that. Russia avoiding talking and facing the truth and supplying and cuddling PRC before and now and having such news items like supplying Pakis when other more sensible choices and availabity is there (like Vietnam etc) makes the genuine partners that they have in India make them frankly angry.

India did not do anything even comparable to what PRC and Pakistan did to Russia yet the supplying to Pakistan and PRC is there. india ought to not take this with kindness and make sure that russia understands and also clear that what they have done is with sense and reason. Double game implies that russia is (cunningly) doing in their own favor. If not it is absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Punya Pratap]

So much drama ... makes it sound like a betrayed lover's sob stories!!

India needs to wake up to the fact that geo-political alignments can change pretty rapidly and what was our exclusive domain is now served on a platter to our enemies! Su 35 sale is an open option for China and now Pakistan is also on the list... so what!!

Russia will sell its wares to anyone who can shell the money (Pakistan's capability to buy and maintain is questionable) But I loved the rest of the article where the Russian Pakistani love is literally overflowing as the Russian Deputy Foreign Minister has called Pakistan Russia's CLOSEST PARTNER!! Everything else (including sale of Mi 35 / Su 35) is irrelevant in front of this statement!

Now that the Russian Embassy denies such a statement we can only surmise but its best to watch and learn from all that is going on between Russia and Pakistan and also the Russian cooperation extended to India in the UN! But then again dint a certain Russian Ambassador ask the journos to spit on his face if Russia ever sells military stuff to our enemies?? Mi 35 is confirmed sale so lets have the entire 1.2 billion population line up in front of the Russian Embassy and get ready to spit!!

Now for my two-pence worth..... Russia is pushing India hard to conclude the FGFA deal and thats why the Su 35 specter is hung over our heads first with China and now with Pakistan! This is what happens when you depend on others so your best friend is you alone!! I hope someone tells the IA (who sabotaged the Arjun for T90's and that to with a joke of ToT) or the IN (Follow on for Talwars) or the IAF (FGFA/Su 35 drama) to wake up to the new World Order!!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

http://spearheadresearch.org/SR_CMS...spolitics/india-russia-opt-for-velvet-divorce

India, Russia opt for velvet divorce

 

[bose]

I see this as a threat to India ... sign FGFA or else we will sell it to Pakistan ...

 

[blueblood]

This is slightly more than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_(news_agency)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossiya_Segodnya

Not really, not if you don't want it to be. Fallacy in your reasoning lies in the fact that state sponsored media is always a mouthpiece of the state. This is not completely true or else Admiral Zhang would not have made PLA laughing stock of the world, repeatedly.

Regardless. The intent matters. Pakistan may not be able to afford it but Chinks can and seeing as Chinki flanker still uses Russian engine, why not buy the all-weather friend a complete body as well. Might help them in the development of another phully indigenous J-1_ whateva.

Yes, intent does matter but what kind? India should have no problem if Russia is selling them outdated Mi-35 or T-90s or something equivalent. India should have some problem if they are willing to sell Su-35 and Pak is reciprocating which is not the case here.

Why would China endorse the superiority of Russian jets? Wouldn't they rather sell their much touted air superiority "Flanker killer" J-10?

 

[pmaitra]

I see this as a threat to India ... sign FGFA or else we will sell it to Pakistan ...

We should abandon FGFA and get 36 PAK-FAs and 36 Rafales each, and focus on AMCA.

 

[pmaitra]

People are making this an issue like Russia and India are teen BFFs, braiding each others hair. What is this, some cheapass teen drama on MTV? What part of the words "international relations" is too difficult to understand?

• Pakis are not going to buy Su-35. Doesn't fit well with their doctrine.
  
• Even if they wanted to, they cannot afford it.
• If they had money, they would have gone for J-10 not Su-35.
• Russia is free to follow its own interests. Nothing to bitch and moan about. This ain't a fucking teen drama.
  
• Stop being stupid and stop comparing Russia's relations with China to that with Pakistan. Not a zero sum game.
  
• Stop being stupid and stop comparing Russia's relations with China to that with India. Not a zero sum game.

And for crying out loud, lock this stupid thread based on rumours that were categorically denied.

@sob @pmaitra @LETHALFORCE

This is obviously a rumour, just like those rumours that India was funding Russia's PAK-FA programme.

 

[hit&run]

http://spearheadresearch.org/SR_CMS...spolitics/india-russia-opt-for-velvet-divorce

India, Russia opt for velvet divorce

I stopped when I read Mr. M K Bhadrakumar as he has recently been portraying dooms day scenario for every thing that Modi government does. I hope he won't twist it has Modi government's foreign policy failure.

Having said that, without attacking the messenger further,..........................


Ok sorry, I read the last paragraph..........

Suffice it to say, if the Su 35 S ever appears over the Pakistani skies, it will be a stark reminder that the Modi government’s foreign polices have ended in a cul de sac. After all, it is no mean achievement for the Modi government to have chilled the ties with China, ratcheted up tensions with Pakistan to a near-flashpoint and to atrophy India’s time-tested relationship with Russia to this low point — and, all that to have been achieved in a matter of just 15 months in power.

I am so good in predicting about these rats, who defecate at the end.

 

[Zebra]

http://spearheadresearch.org/SR_CMS...spolitics/india-russia-opt-for-velvet-divorce

India, Russia opt for velvet divorce

The last paragraph of this article, it says....................... Suffice it to say, if the Su 35 S ever appears over the Pakistani skies, it will be a stark reminder that the Modi government’s foreign polices have ended in a cul de sac. After all, it is no mean achievement for the Modi government to have chilled the ties with China, ratcheted up tensions with Pakistan to a near-flashpoint and to atrophy India’s time-tested relationship with Russia to this low point — and, all that to have been achieved in a matter of just 15 months in power.

Even after this thread on DFI still people love to be in their own wonderland.
But they are not happy to accept the reality that no one is friend here.

 

[Zebra]

There is a call.

Its the time for that man, (who has 'executive power'), to take it.

And say 'see you later'.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I have been saying that pakfa deal will not happen for awhile now this seems to be headed in that direction. If thus rumor/story is true we should drop pakfa deal. Blaming this on modi is ridiculous. Under congress pak got rd-93 engine deal.

 

[Yumdoot]

We should abandon FGFA and get 36 PAK-FAs and 36 Rafales each, and focus on AMCA.

Agreed. But the numbers for PAKFA too has to increase to 3 squads at least. And Rafales have to be capped at 36. Hear me out.

From Rafales there is only a DACT exercise that we can learn in. Basically learn how to fight against a networked enemy while suffering substantial disability to our own networks. Kind of like guerrilla tactics against entrenched enemy. In essence how to give an air to air Vietnam. IAF will probably take 10 years to train all the 600+ aircrafts in its inventory to learn how to fight in such a scenario. Nothing thereafter on offer from Rafale is useful. After this Rafales can be transferred to Paki front. Against China Rafales are going to be useless for multiple reasons. But even if the Pakis get Sukhois or even PAKFAs/J-20s, these very same Rafales will give a tough time to PAF because of the shallow depth of Pakistani airspace. My guess is most of the PAF would get killed on ground itself simply by having missile strikes targeted against their Sensor coverage. After that Jags can complete the kill, with air cover from Mirages. Unfortunately this is not going to work in Himalayas, against the Chinese.

From PAKFA we need a sensors-relay, sensors cover, some basic long range Air defence. A PAKFA is the best idea to form an impromptu and yet permanent datalink relay between AWACS further indepth and the rest of the airforce further up. This way the AWACS also can remain secure under the air cover provided by PAKFAs. But for this dual role we need enough PAKFAs and 36 is not going to cut it. Say you are facing a full blown air attack, then only 50% of the PAKFA will be able to keep themselves hidden. Rest will have to reveal themselves for defending the AWACS. Since ultimate plan is for around 10 AWACS+AEWC so 60+ is the bare minimum PAKFAs we will require, presuming some in repair and reserves.

From AMCA comes the real hope. By now there are so many flavors to what constitutes Fifth Generation that it is rather idiotic to imagine that AMCA cannot become one more flavour. And this is what we need. Vectored in by longer ranged sensors and armed with inexpensive Astras, an AMCA will wreak havoc in defensive roles and yet have reasonably good capability to attack somewhat in depth till those Chinese roads in occupied Tibet. Alternatively AMCAs could provide air escort (slightly longer duration) for LCAs against those Chinese roads in occupied Tibet.

Problem is the IAF leadership. These shameless fellows have ranted against LCA and salivated for Rafales while sipping foreign liquor in Stratfor meetings. Scion of an ex-IAF honcho is flying MKI and I will not be surprised if some hanky panky gets tried again. Remember how the Russians broke the news of some IAF pilots behaving like cowboys, to cause the sad end of an fellow IAF pilot. IAF honchos were actually defending these cowboys. Who do you think these cowboys will 'feel loyal' to? How do you think this mutual back-scratching network starts. This nexus must be broken and for good. Unless this is done we will always have a sliver of saboteurs in IAF working against the country.

 

[pmaitra]

Agreed. But the numbers for PAKFA too has to increase to 3 squads at least. And Rafales have to be capped at 36. Hear me out.

From Rafales there is only a DACT exercise that we can learn in. Basically learn how to fight against a networked enemy while suffering substantial disability to our own networks. Kind of like guerrilla tactics against entrenched enemy. In essence how to give an air to air Vietnam. IAF will probably take 10 years to train all the 600+ aircrafts in its inventory to learn how to fight in such a scenario. Nothing thereafter on offer from Rafale is useful. After this Rafales can be transferred to Paki front. Against China Rafales are going to be useless for multiple reasons. But even if the Pakis get Sukhois or even PAKFAs/J-20s, these very same Rafales will give a tough time to PAF because of the shallow depth of Pakistani airspace. My guess is most of the PAF would get killed on ground itself simply by having missile strikes targeted against their Sensor coverage. After that Jags can complete the kill, with air cover from Mirages. Unfortunately this is not going to work in Himalayas, against the Chinese.

From PAKFA we need a sensors-relay, sensors cover, some basic long range Air defence. A PAKFA is the best idea to form an impromptu and yet permanent datalink relay between AWACS further indepth and the rest of the airforce further up. This way the AWACS also can remain secure under the air cover provided by PAKFAs. But for this dual role we need enough PAKFAs and 36 is not going to cut it. Say you are facing a full blown air attack, then only 50% of the PAKFA will be able to keep themselves hidden. Rest will have to reveal themselves for defending the AWACS. Since ultimate plan is for around 10 AWACS+AEWC so 60+ is the bare minimum PAKFAs we will require, presuming some in repair and reserves.

From AMCA comes the real hope. By now there are so many flavors to what constitutes Fifth Generation that it is rather idiotic to imagine that AMCA cannot become one more flavour. And this is what we need. Vectored in by longer ranged sensors and armed with inexpensive Astras, an AMCA will wreak havoc in defensive roles and yet have reasonably good capability to attack somewhat in depth till those Chinese roads in occupied Tibet. Alternatively AMCAs could provide air escort (slightly longer duration) for LCAs against those Chinese roads in occupied Tibet.

Problem is the IAF leadership. These shameless fellows have ranted against LCA and salivated for Rafales while sipping foreign liquor in Stratfor meetings. Scion of an ex-IAF honcho is flying MKI and I will not be surprised if some hanky panky gets tried again. Remember how the Russians broke the news of some IAF pilots behaving like cowboys, to cause the sad end of an fellow IAF pilot. IAF honchos were actually defending these cowboys. Who do you think these cowboys will 'feel loyal' to? How do you think this mutual back-scratching network starts. This nexus must be broken and for good. Unless this is done we will always have a sliver of saboteurs in IAF working against the country.

I hope the mutual backscratching network translates into a networked and cohesive fighter jets fighitng an effective mission.

Back to the point, I think India was planning to invest $6 billion ($6000 million) for the FGFA programme.

Now, one PAK-FA costs $50 million. So, technically, $6000 million/$50 million = 120. Now, keeping for spares and maintenance, I think we can look at double that number, i.e. 36x2 = 72 PAK-FAs, and we might save some money as well, which we can devote towards AMCA.

 

[hit&run]

There can not be one plan but a holistic approach to counter such shifts of your previous friend or to be specific, the supplier, who is not going to run extra mile to exclusively cater you.

I can see this thread is debating more on if this news is true or farce. But I see it as opportunity to take this discussion further to ''India without Russia'' scenario.

On ground, there is not much to appreciate and probe while looking at ourselves to deliberate on such scenarios. But one day such discussions are going to be more frequent and we have to start from a point.

I am going to start from one example and that is of ISRO. I can fairly say that the dependence on foreign countries is almost weaned off, rather now we can be on dictating position, entering an era of international cooperation as equal among equals.

As far as building a Jet engine is concern, let alone making an aircraft, then without being censorious on usual stuff I believe we started late and whatever the time we have taken during this learning curve is not that bad. With better managers and political will we may be not that far.

Please add more on positives if you want.

 

[Yumdoot]

'India without Russia'

Now now lets not get carried away by all this. When the Indians fall out with Russians it is a whole different scenario then the bogus 'pragmatic self-interest' bull that goes on in forums.

When Indians and Russians negotiate its about things like whether Russians should give us the Yassen (which they offer) or the Borei (which we seek and is some notches above Yassen). So please some perspective, is in order.

OTOH Westerners and the Pakis, cannot even approach their main benefactor (the Americans) for an extra work hauling water for the team that works on JSF (a lousy product BTW). And this is supposed to be inspired by 'pragmatic self-interest'.

FYI, those two guys standing in one underwear - the America and Britain - you know why the Brits never developed the TN of their own. No. Well that and that is slavery.

There is a world of difference, here.

Anyhow, my guesstimate is that our 'pragmatic self-interest' gets served when our 125 Crore and our expats are safe, with their economic capacity assured and their freedom not compromised and they in turn not being a general asshole around the world like those damned Salafis and their protectors. I am a sort of Maximinimalist.

 

[Screambowl]

Russia needs India ... And much more in value to how they need PRC. The Russia and PRC relations is matter of convenience. Russia needs to manage its own affairs and stop thinking it is cold war again. Russia is a rich nation (with its oil and geography).

If such a news item (it being denied) is put out we also ought to put out some reports (that can be denied) like how russia and PRC relations and history is there and how PRC in its shiny office in shanghai looks down on russia. Russia leader was in prc for parade and that made prc look down on russia because no other world leader was there. Is russia role in the world such that they need to go to prc to claim any position. Why such news item being allowed like above. Sure our relations are strong. But why not deny reports like russia role in world is lesseoned after 1990s and PRC is making small efforts on that. Russia avoiding talking and facing the truth and supplying and cuddling PRC before and now and having such news items like supplying Pakis when other more sensible choices and availabity is there (like Vietnam etc) makes the genuine partners that they have in India make them frankly angry.

India did not do anything even comparable to what PRC and Pakistan did to Russia yet the supplying to Pakistan and PRC is there. india ought to not take this with kindness and make sure that russia understands and also clear that what they have done is with sense and reason. Double game implies that russia is (cunningly) doing in their own favor. If not it is absolutely unacceptable.

To me it more looks like, PRC is trying to Isolate India and limit Russian weapon supply to India and trying to revive Russia - Pak relations.

Pakistan is PRC's proxy , and because of recall of NATO coalition from Afg, Pakistan is now less under pressure from west. Pakistan is also trying to gain Russian trust , because what Americans did to them , their military cannot stay with such image. Hence the Pak army playing it's card. '' you tell us to do more on Terror, we have Russians and Chinese in the backyard too.''

 

[sorcerer]

To me it more looks like, PRC is trying to Isolate India and limit Russian weapon supply to India and trying to revive Russia - Pak relations.

Hmmm....!!!
PRC is into defense exports..
Russia is into defense exports

I dont think PRC can arm twist Russian supplies to India, where India is the major defense export market of Russia..and Russia cant afford to lose Indian market atleast at these pressing times.

Will Russia simply throw away such a relationship with India ..for backstabbing pakis?

Everyone knows that Its the US $s of WoT with which pak is buying weapons.. and these days for Pak..the free US $s are running out..which will make pak a very unreliable export market for Russia.

Secondly...China wont allow paki market to be taken over by Russia. China needs Pakistan as a demonstration partner for its sales pitch...too much at stake here for China.

May be..may be...We can expect a few trades with pakistan from Russia... cuz Russia is under pressure to sell cuz of its economic condition..its salvaging deals.but that will be just very minimal and nor alarming.

But IMO..it wont set the strategic depth India have with Russia to a state of limbo.

 

[Screambowl]

Hmmm....!!!
PRC is into defense exports..
Russia is into defense exports

I dont think PRC can arm twist Russian supplies to India, where India is the major defense export market of Russia..and Russia cant afford to lose Indian market atleast at these pressing times.

Will Russia simply throw away such a relationship with India ..for backstabbing pakis?

Everyone knows that Its the US $s of WoT with which pak is buying weapons.. and these days for Pak..the free US $s are running out..which will make pak a very unreliable export market for Russia.

Secondly...China wont allow paki market to be taken over by Russia. China needs Pakistan as a demonstration partner for its sales pitch...too much at stake here for China.

May be..may be...We can expect a few trades with pakistan from Russia... cuz Russia is under pressure to sell cuz of its economic condition..its salvaging deals.but that will be just very minimal and nor alarming.

But IMO..it wont set the strategic depth India have with Russia to a state of limbo.

Yes, indeed, a lot of your points have logic. Like PRC also has it's own market and cannot allow Russia to take over the Paki market. More over we should also not forget the west.
So it's Russia Vs West Vs PRC now when it comes to weapon trade.

But PRC may try to create troublesome relations between Ind and Russia, by bringing Pakistan as a small market for Russian arms dealers. The only trouble part for such deal is, critical technologies getting transferred to Pak illegally. Because earlier they were not really in talking terms with Russia but now their presence is increasing with limit.

So a country like Pakistan will definitely try to get some tech, if not weapon.

 

[The enlightened]

Not really, not if you don't want it to be. Fallacy in your reasoning lies in the fact that state sponsored media is always a mouthpiece of the state. This is not completely true or else Admiral Zhang would not have made PLA laughing stock of the world, repeatedly.

My simple point was that it is not a simple rumour by the likes of say WantChinaTimes to be so patently dismissed.

Yes, intent does matter but what kind? India should have no problem if Russia is selling them outdated Mi-35 or T-90s or something equivalent. India should have some problem if they are willing to sell Su-35 and Pak is reciprocating which is not the case here.

Why would China endorse the superiority of Russian jets? Wouldn't they rather sell their much touted air superiority "Flanker killer" J-10?

'outdated Mi-35' - okay
'T-90s' - happens to be our frontline MBT but never mind.
'if they are willing to sell Su-35' - Sputnik news shows exactly that
'Pak is reciprocating which is not the case here.' - and how could you possibly know that?
'Why would China endorse the superiority of Russian jets? Wouldn't they rather sell their much touted air superiority "Flanker killer" J-10?' - they would have just pulled a rabbit out of their hat - in a single stroke PAF has a more superior weapon than IAF along with the legs to have strategic implications, have now created a very comprehensive base for Ruso-Paki partnership and a future Ruso-Chini-Paki axis, alienated India from any 'friend' or 'strategic partner', caused India to divert significantly more resources away from the Himalyan theatre and so on.

 

[bose]

We should abandon FGFA and get 36 PAK-FAs and 36 Rafales each, and focus on AMCA.

Precisely ... here what Russia fear most ... they stand to gain with billion of dollars to redesign of PAK- FA [ as FGFA] and plus long term dependency on their technology... anyway PAK-FA is already done ... lately IAF has realized the fallacy of dependency on imported maal...

This TOT business is a hoax... no one will give us technology... No alternative to LCA - II & AMCA... we have to agree on it...

On a different note, with current dispensation in Russia and oil prices going down... I will not surprised if Russia tries for a tight arm twist on India...India still 10 - 15 years away from the self reliance on defense...

It remains to be seen how we handle it with Russia... challenging time ahead...