Northern and Southern Chinese: Different races

Discussion in 'China' started by Ray, Nov 29, 2013.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Southern Cantonese are more clever than northern Chinese.

    Southern cantonese should not interbreed with northern chinese,because southern cantonese are more clever than northern chinese.Northern chinese have interbred with the mongolians,tungustics and huns,therefore northern chinese are less intelligent.Even Northern Koreans score higher than northern chinese,even though north korea's living standards are lower than northern china's.

    Southern Cantonese are more intelligent than northern chinese,look at the IQ table below:

    Hong Kong 107
    Korea, South 106
    Korea, North 105*
    Japan 105
    Taiwan 104
    Netherlands 102
    Italy 102
    Germany 102
    Austria 102
    Luxembourg 101*
    Switzerland 101
    Sweden 101
    United Kingdom 100
    Singapore 100
    New Zealand 100
    China 100
    Belgium 100
    Spain 99
    Poland 99
    Hungary 99
    Mongolia 98*
    Iceland 98*
    United States 98
    Norway 98
    France 98
    Denmark 98
    Australia 98

    Source: Speak Stiltedly and Wear a Yellow Shirt » 2004 ...

    Southern Cantonese are more clever than northern chinese. - Topix
     
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  3. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    I just can't believe an Indian is using this IQ index which obviously discriminating Indian population and other developing countries.

    Or you just agree with this index which publicly says that most of people of developing countries (includes Indian) are fools?
     
  4. nimo_cn

    nimo_cn Senior Member Senior Member

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    this forum is full of people with IQ below 98, which explains everything happening here, doesnt it?

    Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
     
  5. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    Those who have that IQ are either chini, or borrowed it from Chini (Paks).
     
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  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    You can't believe it?

    Has India been mentioned?

    Notwithstanding, we Indians are not blind like the Chinese not to accept what some people may claim.

    WE read it and analyse and not outright reject like the Chinese who are, as Mao said, frogs in the well.

    Actually, it is Chinese who are fools because they have sold their souls and their mind to the CCP.

    Only fools can sell themselves.

    Notwithstanding the Southern Chinese dislike the Northern Chinese who are but dumb, slow and the real Han.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  7. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    Talking about yourself?

    Checked where China is?

    Or are you from Hong Kong?

    What you missed is the disgust that person indicates when he talks about the Chinese, even though he is himself, technically, a Chinese.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  8. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Posts moved to this new thread.
     
  9. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    Chinese commenting here are mostly from the southern part of China. They are commenting here arrogantly and different from Chinese staying in Japan and why? Because Northern Chinese and Southern Chinese are different:

    Northern Chinese:
    Like to stay in Japan or Korea.
    Don't speak English.
    Don't have western names.
    Play sports.
    Tall
    Humble
    From Harbin, Dalian, Beijing, etc

    Southern Chinese:
    Like to stay in the western countries.
    Speak English.
    Have western names.
    Bark on the net.
    Short
    Arrogant
    From Taiwan, HK, Canton, etc

    ***************************************

    1) Northern Chinese hate the Japanese to the bone and will be for many generations to come.

    2) Northern Chinese control the military and the politics in China.

    3) Northern Chinese do not like to stay in Japan or Korea, though they do visit as tourists due to proximity.

    4) Most of Japanese atrocities during WWII were perpetrated in Northern China.

    ******************************************************

    Norhtern Chinese wrote:

    "The one thing you ought to know is that:
    1) Northern Chinese hate the Japanese to the bone and will be for many generations to come.
    2) Northern Chinese control the military and the politics in China.
    3) Northern Chinese do not like to stay in Japan or Korea, though they do visit as tourists due to proximity.
    4) Most of Japanese atrocities during WWII were perpetrated in Northern China.
    Manchurians like the Japanese."


    #4 is also wrong. Nanjing and Shanghai, south of the Yangze river, were where most of the fighting took place between the Chinese and the Japanese.

    ******************************************************

    Northern Chinese vs Southern Chinese - Topix
     
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  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In



    Southern Chinese vs Northern Chinese (Asian DNA map)
     
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  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: China To Engage In 'Six Inevitable Wars' Involving U.S., Japan, In

    Do southern Chinese look down at northern Chinese?

    I just went to H.K., Guangdong and Taiwan. The Hkers and Taiwanese still are making fun of the people come from north. They think northern Chinese are backward and poor with traditional minds. I have also met many southern Chinese who own businesses in Qingdon, Shangdon (northern part of China). Some owns meat plants and factories. They share similar attitudes. I don’t know if their attitudes came from their ancestors or not. In the ancient time, the southerners often viewed northerners as barbarians. It is true that the northern Chinese are not as wealthy as the southerners, but in the due time, they will catch up since the central government has invested a lot of money in the north now. Massive migration between northern China and southern China has existed since thousands and thousands if not millions and millions of years. Their bloodlines were long crossovered. There is only slight difference in genes but it is mainly due to the environments in which they lives.

    ********************************************************

    I think in the past HK people look down on Mainland people.

    But I think this is more to do with socioeconomic class.

    'Class' is mainly socioeconomic I think. If someone is rich, it is hard to look down on that person.

    I think it's temporary, dont worry.

    Maybe it's like WestGerman-EastGerman condition, slowly fading away.

    Now with rapid economic growth, and more millionaires being minted in Mainland China, the class conditions will change slowly. I dont believe this is a latent problem, dont worry.

    **********************************************************************

    actually all the oldest chinese nations from 2000bc-1500bc existed in Northern China. Southern China became "civilised" a thousand years after northern China.

    Southern Chinese are typically more snide and cunning.

    Northern Chinese are normally straight up, taller, whiter like Koreans and etc.

    Then again Chinese have been mixed up so much that a Southerner's ancestors may have been a northerner since so many northern Chinese fled to the south due to Mongols, Jins and manchus over history

    *************************************************

    ^^I have to view that I.Q. stats. on Guangdong and Fujian provinces to see if there are any vast differences with the rest of China before I come to any conclusion. I am sure China's I.Q. will be lower if you take away those 2 provinces from the total.

    I don't know about New York, but here in L.A., most of the Chinese who congregate with each other are the mainlanders Mandarin speakers and Taiwanese. Cantonese oldtimers are more spread out and lose contact with their culture eventually. I don't suckee up to white people and my English is accent free. I know they respect me more than those Mandarin and Shanghainese fresh off the boats. All the recent spy scandals, tainted food scandals, lead scandals, etc. No American had ever thought Chinese would be capable of spying until recently. What a shame.

    This proves again that northerners who wish to be mistaken for Korean are proud of their Manchu/Mongol genes. Anyway, most non-Asians cannot tell the difference. They actually feel more easier approaching Asians with more larger and rounder eyes

    ******************************************************

    i'll admit my parents and some of their chinese friends (including northerners and taiwanese) have somewhat of a prejudice against southern chinese (which is hypocritical, since they're from nanjing, which is in southern china). they never associate with cantonese or chinese from the surrounding area. their biggest complaint is that cantonese have given chinese a lot of negative stereotypes in west, like "chinese eat everything that moves," and so on. i suppose they're just annoyed by their more ignorant white coworkers who keep asking them about what exotic food they cook at home. they only good thing they have to say about other southerners is that they work their asses off, which is pretty much true of all chinese immigrants. the only "southerners" they have a favorable view of are those from sichuan or hunan.

    also, a lot of the northern vs southern thing comes down to regional pride. my parents pretty much hold the belief that jiangsu and zhejiang provinces are the best provinces to live and have the smartest people (my grandparents, and pretty much every adult i know from the area have the same view). when i ask them about the successes of singapore and hong kong, they just attribute them to doing of immigrants who originated from those provinces. she always says the reason why hong kong is so rich is due to all the shanghainese to immigrated there after communism. before that it was just a $hitty port town controlled by the british. as for singapore, she says all the major companies were started by people from ningbo. my mom doesn't care too much about northerners either. to her, they're just dumb violent northerners.

    ******************************************************

    No, it's the northerns who look down on the south and southeners look down on themselves icon_wink.gif. Northeners are paler, taller, law abiding, solidary, cultured, funny and creative. Southeners are commercially driven, bad mannered, uncultured, speak loud, money hungry (HK women for instance), quarrelsome with pennies (Thats why the shanghaines are seen as Chinese Jews), loves the west (HK and Taiwan), as short and brown as native americans except thinner, exceedingly flashy (So flashy you can tell they were dressed like peasants just hours ago) pride themselves for dropping out of school and work in their parents supermarkets instead, have horrible taste in food and likes to mix every traditional (northen) salty meals with sugar and claim as their own invention. icon_wink.gif

    "Fu Chin" anyone?

    No offense there, just playing along.
    **************************************

    One thing southern Chinese (esp. Cantonese) will not look down upon is their own food. Nothing beats a banquet style Cantonese seafood dinner. Steamed cabazon fish, lobster cooked in supreme soup sauce, geoduck and clams stir fried in X.O. sauce. Nothing beats this. You go to a Beijingnese or Shanghainese restaurant and the best they offer are plain crab dishes. Plus, the northern soy braised meats (ie beef tendon, pig ears, pig feets, etc.) are no comparison with the Cantonese cha siu and siu yuk (roasted crispy skin pork) that go with gai lan vegetables and rice. Don't even get me started on dimsum breakfast/lunch. You often see more Mandarin speakers eating at Cantonese restaurants than vice versa (at least from what I have seen in L.A.).

    The only thing southerners might concede defeat to northerners is women. You go to big cities in Guangdong, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, even America you see a lot of southern Chinese men dating or married to northern or Sichuan/Hunan women. Perhaps it is the taller legs and more Mongol/Manchu/Altaic look of northern women faces that attract them?
    ********************************

    Asia Finest Discussion Forum > Do southern Chinese look down at northern Chinese?
     
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Genetic Difference between Northern Han and Southern Han

    Read:
    http://news.chinatim...0900094,00.html

    There is only cultural affinity between these two groups. In fact, southern Han Chinese are more genetically similar to minority groups like Vietnamese while northern Han Chinese are closer to minority groups like Mongols than with each other.

    This seems to suggest that the definition of 'han-chinese' was based more on cultural/language aspect than on by blood/genetics.

    Genetic Diff. between Northern and Southern Han - Chinese Anthropology - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

    ******************************************************

    Population substructure within China

    Razib Khan

    The state of China has 1/5 of humanity within its borders, so it’s genetic structure is of interest. It is obviously important for medical reasons to clarify issues of population structure so that disease susceptibility among the Han is well characterized, in particular with the heightened medical needs of an aging population in the coming generation. And of course, there are the nationalistic concerns. About 20 years ago L. L. Cavalli-Sforza reported that his South Chinese samples were genetically closer to Southeast Asians than North Chinese in The History and Geography of Human Genes. This result has been somewhat muddled in the past generation with the rise of uniparental markers (NRY and mtDNA passed through the male and female lineages) along with studies which utilize hundreds of thousands of SNPs. One thing that seems to be clear is that genes vary as a function of geography in China (just as they do pretty much everywhere).

    Two new articles in AJHG shed some more light on this issue, Genomic Dissection of Population Substructure of Han Chinese and Its Implication in Association Studies:

    And, Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation:

    Below is a PC chart which shows PC1 on the x-axis and PC2 on the y-axis. In green are South Chinese, and in blue the North Chinese. Japanese are the cluster to the top left, and red represents the HapMap Chinese sample.

    [​IMG]

    here’s a visualization of the ancestries of individuals from particular provinces and dialect groups using Structure (right) and Frappe (left) (the K’s represent 2 or 3 putative ancestral populations respectively). It’s ordered by ancestry within the classes. The rough geographical correlate is north-south. Note the variance in Singapore; most Singaporean Chinese derive from Fujian (with a large Hakka minority, and some Malay admixture on the part of Baba Chinese), but there were enough disparate migratory events that you don’t see a bottleneck and decrease in homogeneity compared to Chinese provinces. On the contrary. A minority of Singaporeans seem to be of North Chinese provenance, a result that would not surprising in Taiwan, where such a migration is historically documented (after the fall of Nationalist China), but is more curious in Singapore which was presumably part of the greater Fujianese Diaspora.

    [​IMG]

    Finally, here are pairwise Fst values. Remember that this captures the proportion of genetic variance between populations. Fst values between continental races is on the order of 0.15. This means 15% of the genetic variation is between races. The values below seem to show a maximum between province/dialect difference in China of about 0.5% of the genetic variation. But despite this small value, note how obvious it is above to differentiate individuals from northern and southern regions of China.

    [​IMG]

    comparable Fst values from Europe:
    0.001 = Bulgaria-Austria
    0.002 = Poland-Sweden
    0.003 = Northern Italy-Switzerland
    0.004 = Spain-Sweden
    0.005 = Russia-France
    I’ve left out the highest Fst values in Europe, which are between Finns and Southern Italians, on the order of 0.015. But from these data it looks as if Han Chinese are in the same order of magnitude of variance as Europeans in terms of their genetics, but a factor or two lower. But it may be that the coverage of genetic variation is just not as thick in China so that outlier Han populations, the equivalent of Finns (perhaps Sinicized groups in Yunnan?), are out there waiting to push the mean variance higher. It is interesting, though not totally surprising, that different dialect groups in the same region exhibit large genetic differences. Language & genes often correlate because the former circumscribes the limits of marriage networks. The Teochew migrated from Fujian to Guangdong (to my knowledge they are the dominant Chinese group in Thailand), and are nearly as genetically distant from their Cantonese speaking neighbors as they are from North Chinese. Interestingly, the Hakka group who are derived from North Chinese migrants according their history, seem to be closer to “indigenous” South Chinese. Nevertheless, they exhibit less genetic difference from North Chinese than do Cantonese speakers in Guangdong. This is obviously the tip of the iceberg, I suspect that the genetic topography of South China in particular will be surprising because of its geographical fragmentation, the role of powerful clan networks, and the recurrent history of migration from the North China plain by groups who manage to maintain their identities (.e.g, Hakka).*
    Citation: Jieming Chen, Houfeng Zheng, Jin-Xin Bei, Liangdan Sun, Wei-hua Jia, Tao Li, Furen Zhang, Mark Seielstad, Yi-Xin Zeng, Xuejun Zhang, and Jianjun Liu, Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation, doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.10.016
    Citation: Shuhua Xu, Xianyong Yin, Shilin Li, Wenfei Jin, Haiyi Lou, Ling Yang, Xiaohong Gong, Hongyan Wang, Yiping Shen, Xuedong Pan, Yungang He, Yajun Yang, Yi Wang, Wenqing Fu, Yu An, Jiucun Wang, Jingze Tan, Ji Qian, Xiaoli Chen, Xin Zhang, Yangfei Sun, Xuejun Zhang, Bailin Wu, and Li Jin, Genomic Dissection of Population Substructure of Han Chinese and Its Implication in Association Studies, doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2009.10.015
    * It is attested that many groups emigrated from South China to North China, but it seems to me that these groups were simply absorbed. I suspect it has to do with the flat topography of the North China plain which does not allow for easy separation between groups. In South China the Hakka tended to farm the more marginal lands, in particular upland regions.

    Population substructure within China - Gene Expression | DiscoverMagazine.com
     
  14. G90

    G90 Regular Member

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    :rofl:Your data is outdated, you could refer to Lynn's IQ and Global Inequalities which listed Chinese mainlander's IQ for 105, for your pesudo-IQ studies.

    IQ and Global Inequality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As for the Northern IQ, according to latest IQ studies across China for pupil under 10 years old, you will be surprised.:cool2:

    Anyway, Northern or Southern Chinese, their IQ scores are all much higher than our poor indian fellows so I really dont understand why he love to bring out this topic (must because the curse of low IQ), typically I expect someone like you should trying your best to avoid such topic or dismiss such topics as being un-scientific, but who knows the functionality of your mind :rofl:
     
  15. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Han Chinese

    The Han Chinese are an ethnic group native to East Asia. They constitute approximately 92% of the population of China, 98% of the population of Taiwan, 74% of the population of Singapore, 24.5% of the population of Malaysia, and about 20% of the entire global human population, making them the largest ethnic group in the world. There is considerable genetic, linguistic, cultural, and social diversity among the Han, mainly due to thousands of years of immigration and assimilation of various regional ethnicities and tribes within China.[16] The Han Chinese are a subset of the Chinese nation (Zhonghua minzu). Sometimes Han and other Chinese refer to themselves as the "Descendants of the Yan and Huang Emperors".

    DNA analysis

    Y-chromosome haplogroup O3 is a common DNA marker in Han Chinese, as it appeared in China in prehistoric times. It is found in more than 50% of Chinese males, and ranging up to over 80% in certain regional subgroups of the Han ethnicity.[65] However, the mitochondrial DNA of Han Chinese increases in diversity as one looks from northern to southern China, which suggests that some male migrants from northern China married with women from local peoples after arriving in Guangdong, Fujian, and other regions of southern China.[66][67] Despite this, tests comparing the genetic profiles of northern Han, southern Han and southern natives determined that haplogroups O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7, which are prevalent in southern natives, were only observed in some southern Hans (4% on average), but not in northern Hans. Therefore, this proves that the male contribution of southern natives in southern Hans is limited.[16][66] In contrast, there are consistent strong genetic similarities in the Y chromosome haplogroup distribution between the southern and northern Chinese population, and the result of principal component analysis indicates almost all Han populations form a tight cluster in their Y chromosome.

    Additionally, the estimated contribution of northern Hans to southern Hans is substantial in both paternal and maternal lineages and a geographic cline exists for mtDNA. As a result, the northern Hans are the primary contributors to the gene pool of the southern Hans. However, it is noteworthy that the expansion process was dominated by males, as is shown by a greater contribution to the Y-chromosome than the mtDNA from northern Hans to southern Hans. These genetic observations are in line with historical records of continuous and large migratory waves of northern China inhabitants escaping warfare and famine, to southern China. Aside from these large migratory waves, other smaller southward migrations also occurred during almost all periods in the past two millennia. Moreover, a study by the Chinese Academy of Sciences into the gene frequency data of Han subpopulations and ethnic minorities in China, showed that Han subpopulations in different regions are also genetically close to the local ethnic minorities, and it means that in many cases blood of ethnic minorities has mixed into Han, while at the same time, blood of Han also has mixed into the local ethnicities.[68] A recent, and to date the most extensive, genome-wide association study of the Han population shows that little geographic-genetic dispersion from north to south has occurred.[69] Ultimately, with the exception in some ethnolinguistic branches of the Han Chinese, such as Pinghua, there is a coherent genetic structure in all Han Chinese populace.[70]

    Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  16. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese

    Abstract

    To characterize the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation in Han Chinese from several provinces of China, we have sequenced the two hypervariable segments of the control region and the segment spanning nucleotide positions 10171–10659 of the coding region, and we have identified a number of specific coding-region mutations by direct sequencing or restriction-fragment–length–polymorphism tests. This allows us to define new haplogroups (clades of the mtDNA phylogeny) and to dissect the Han mtDNA pool on a phylogenetic basis, which is a prerequisite for any fine-grained phylogeographic analysis, the interpretation of ancient mtDNA, or future complete mtDNA sequencing efforts. Some of the haplogroups under study differ considerably in frequencies across different provinces. The southernmost provinces show more pronounced contrasts in their regional Han mtDNA pools than the central and northern provinces. These and other features of the geographical distribution of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Han Chinese make an initial Paleolithic colonization from south to north plausible but would suggest subsequent migration events in China that mainly proceeded from north to south and east to west. Lumping together all regional Han mtDNA pools into one fictive general mtDNA pool or choosing one or two regional Han populations to represent all Han Chinese is inappropriate for prehistoric considerations as well as for forensic purposes or medical disease studies.

    Introduction

    The Han people constitute China’s and the world’s largest ethnic group, making up ∼93% of the country’s population and nearly 20% of all humankind. The formation of the Han people was a process of continuous expansion by integration of numerous tribes or ethnic groups; it began with the ancient Huaxia tribe, which was formed during the 21st–8th centuries b.c. Although the Han people are now spread all over the country, the highest population concentrations are in the basins of the Yellow River, the Yangtze River, and the Zhujiang River and on the Songhuajiang-Liaohe plain in northeast China, as well as on the islands of Taiwan and Hainan (Du and Yip 1993; Ge et al. 1997). The migration of Han people to provinces such as Xinjiang and Yunnan occurred relatively recently, having started mainly ∼100–600 years ago, and was caused by war, plague, and other reasons (Ge et al. 1997). Do these populations bear some genetic differences from those from the historical Han regions, such as Wuhan and Qingdao? To what extent can the genetic data reflect those recent migration events? A prerequisite for answering these and more-specific questions with genetic data is a thorough screening of mtDNA and Y-chromosome variation across China.

    Hitherto, mtDNA from Han Chinese has been poorly sampled and understood in its variation, with only limited data available from Guangdong (T. Kivisild, H.-V. Tolk, J. Parik, Y. Wang, S. S. Papiha, H.-J. Bandelt, and R. Villems, unpublished data), Hong Kong (Betty et al. 1996), Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999), Shandong (Wang et al. 2000), and Taiwan (Horai et al. 1996; Tsai et al. 2001). Moreover, previous genetic studies of the Chinese populations either grouped the various regional Han populations into “Southern Han” and “Northern Han” (Su et al. 1999, 2000) or simply used Han samples from only one or two regions to stand for all Han Chinese (Horai et al. 1996; Hou et al. 2001; Karafet et al. 2001), thereby neglecting potential geographic differences between different Han populations, as well as migrations between north and south. Although genetic contrast between southern and northern populations has been claimed in classical genetic markers (e.g., Zhao and Lee 1989; Chen et al. 1993; Du et al. 1998), dermatoglyphic data (Zhang et al. 1998), archaeological assemblages (Wu et al. 1989), as well as in nuclear microsatellites (Chu et al. 1998) and Y-chromosome single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) data (Su et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 2001), no detailed mtDNA study has been performed to substantiate this claim. Chu et al. (1998) and Su et al. (1999) also argued for a southern origin of northern populations, whereas Ding et al. (2000) emphasized that the regional genetic difference observed in the principal-component (PC) maps of mtDNA, nuclear short tandem repeats (STRs), and Y-chromosome SNPs might be more properly explained by a simple model of isolation by distance (IBD). Given the large census size of the Han people, the complexity of the migration events, and these hotly debated issues, it is necessary to gather detailed information about the regional Han populations.

    To take full advantage of a uniparental marker system, such as mtDNA, one needs a sufficiently resolved phylogeny that is not overly blurred by recurrent mutations. Because the two hypervariable segments (HVS-I and HVS-II) alone—although useful for forensic purposes—cannot support a very reliable estimate of the mtDNA phylogeny (Bandelt et al. 2000), we opted for sequencing one stretch of the coding region (10171–10659) as well, which turned out to be highly informative for East Asian mtDNAs. Another segment (14055–14590) was sequenced in a few samples, helping to define four haplogroups. In addition, a number of further sites relevant for Eurasian mtDNAs (Macaulay et al. 1999; Schurr et al. 1999; T. Kivisild, H.-V. Tolk, J. Parik, Y. Wang, S. S. Papiha, H.-J. Bandelt, and R. Villems, unpublished data) were checked either by direct sequencing or through RFLP testing in specific mtDNAs.


    Material and Methods

    Sampling

    From six provinces in China, 263 unrelated Han individuals were analyzed: 43 from Kunming, Yunnan; 42 from Wuhan, Hubei; 50 from Qingdao, Shandong; 47 from Yili, Xinjiang; 51 from Fengcheng, Liaoning; and 30 from Zhanjiang, Guangdong (see fig. 1 for sample locations). The maternal pedigrees (unrelated through at least three generations) of all individuals were ascertained before sampling. Except for 17 samples from Xinjiang, all subjects were able to confirm that the birthplace of their maternal grandmothers was in the same province.

    More at:

    Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese
     
  17. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese

    Abstract

    To characterize the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation in Han Chinese from several provinces of China, we have sequenced the two hypervariable segments of the control region and the segment spanning nucleotide positions 10171–10659 of the coding region, and we have identified a number of specific coding-region mutations by direct sequencing or restriction-fragment–length–polymorphism tests. This allows us to define new haplogroups (clades of the mtDNA phylogeny) and to dissect the Han mtDNA pool on a phylogenetic basis, which is a prerequisite for any fine-grained phylogeographic analysis, the interpretation of ancient mtDNA, or future complete mtDNA sequencing efforts. Some of the haplogroups under study differ considerably in frequencies across different provinces. The southernmost provinces show more pronounced contrasts in their regional Han mtDNA pools than the central and northern provinces. These and other features of the geographical distribution of the mtDNA haplogroups observed in the Han Chinese make an initial Paleolithic colonization from south to north plausible but would suggest subsequent migration events in China that mainly proceeded from north to south and east to west. Lumping together all regional Han mtDNA pools into one fictive general mtDNA pool or choosing one or two regional Han populations to represent all Han Chinese is inappropriate for prehistoric considerations as well as for forensic purposes or medical disease studies.

    Introduction

    The Han people constitute China’s and the world’s largest ethnic group, making up ∼93% of the country’s population and nearly 20% of all humankind. The formation of the Han people was a process of continuous expansion by integration of numerous tribes or ethnic groups; it began with the ancient Huaxia tribe, which was formed during the 21st–8th centuries b.c. Although the Han people are now spread all over the country, the highest population concentrations are in the basins of the Yellow River, the Yangtze River, and the Zhujiang River and on the Songhuajiang-Liaohe plain in northeast China, as well as on the islands of Taiwan and Hainan (Du and Yip 1993; Ge et al. 1997). The migration of Han people to provinces such as Xinjiang and Yunnan occurred relatively recently, having started mainly ∼100–600 years ago, and was caused by war, plague, and other reasons (Ge et al. 1997). Do these populations bear some genetic differences from those from the historical Han regions, such as Wuhan and Qingdao? To what extent can the genetic data reflect those recent migration events? A prerequisite for answering these and more-specific questions with genetic data is a thorough screening of mtDNA and Y-chromosome variation across China.

    Hitherto, mtDNA from Han Chinese has been poorly sampled and understood in its variation, with only limited data available from Guangdong (T. Kivisild, H.-V. Tolk, J. Parik, Y. Wang, S. S. Papiha, H.-J. Bandelt, and R. Villems, unpublished data), Hong Kong (Betty et al. 1996), Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999), Shandong (Wang et al. 2000), and Taiwan (Horai et al. 1996; Tsai et al. 2001). Moreover, previous genetic studies of the Chinese populations either grouped the various regional Han populations into “Southern Han” and “Northern Han” (Su et al. 1999, 2000) or simply used Han samples from only one or two regions to stand for all Han Chinese (Horai et al. 1996; Hou et al. 2001; Karafet et al. 2001), thereby neglecting potential geographic differences between different Han populations, as well as migrations between north and south. Although genetic contrast between southern and northern populations has been claimed in classical genetic markers (e.g., Zhao and Lee 1989; Chen et al. 1993; Du et al. 1998), dermatoglyphic data (Zhang et al. 1998), archaeological assemblages (Wu et al. 1989), as well as in nuclear microsatellites (Chu et al. 1998) and Y-chromosome single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) data (Su et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 2001), no detailed mtDNA study has been performed to substantiate this claim. Chu et al. (1998) and Su et al. (1999) also argued for a southern origin of northern populations, whereas Ding et al. (2000) emphasized that the regional genetic difference observed in the principal-component (PC) maps of mtDNA, nuclear short tandem repeats (STRs), and Y-chromosome SNPs might be more properly explained by a simple model of isolation by distance (IBD). Given the large census size of the Han people, the complexity of the migration events, and these hotly debated issues, it is necessary to gather detailed information about the regional Han populations.

    To take full advantage of a uniparental marker system, such as mtDNA, one needs a sufficiently resolved phylogeny that is not overly blurred by recurrent mutations. Because the two hypervariable segments (HVS-I and HVS-II) alone—although useful for forensic purposes—cannot support a very reliable estimate of the mtDNA phylogeny (Bandelt et al. 2000), we opted for sequencing one stretch of the coding region (10171–10659) as well, which turned out to be highly informative for East Asian mtDNAs. Another segment (14055–14590) was sequenced in a few samples, helping to define four haplogroups. In addition, a number of further sites relevant for Eurasian mtDNAs (Macaulay et al. 1999; Schurr et al. 1999; T. Kivisild, H.-V. Tolk, J. Parik, Y. Wang, S. S. Papiha, H.-J. Bandelt, and R. Villems, unpublished data) were checked either by direct sequencing or through RFLP testing in specific mtDNAs.


    Material and Methods

    Sampling

    From six provinces in China, 263 unrelated Han individuals were analyzed: 43 from Kunming, Yunnan; 42 from Wuhan, Hubei; 50 from Qingdao, Shandong; 47 from Yili, Xinjiang; 51 from Fengcheng, Liaoning; and 30 from Zhanjiang, Guangdong (see fig. 1 for sample locations). The maternal pedigrees (unrelated through at least three generations) of all individuals were ascertained before sampling. Except for 17 samples from Xinjiang, all subjects were able to confirm that the birthplace of their maternal grandmothers was in the same province.

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    Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese
     
  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results

    January 24, 2008 in China, Weird Science | Tags: anthropology, DNA, North China, South China, Y Chromosome
    This is not shocking, I’ve seen many test results that show Northern Chinese tend to group with North East Asians (Japanese and Koreans) and Southern Chinese tend to group more with Southeast Asians. The populations also have distinct (but often overlapping) appearances. Many of my Chinese friends have told me it is due to diet and climate. I do not think so.

    The early genetic research (The History and Geography of Human Genes, 1996) of Dr. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza showed that Northern Chinese could be grouped with other Northeast Asians (Koreans, Tungusic groups, Japanese) and that Southern Chinese grouped more with Southeast Asians, making the Han Chinese aggregate an intermediate population between the two, which matches their location geographic location. This new report gives us some detail as to the way this population cline occurred.

    Based on what I know of Chinese history, Southern China was settled by the Han much later than the North and the people in the South were considered “barbarian” referred to as the various types of “Yue” (known as the 100 Yue) in later times. Eventually the people region that became Guangdong and North Vietnam were referred to as (Nan Yue, or South Viet). Most of these people were likely Austroasiatic speakers in origin (like present day Vietnamese and Cambodians). Since Northern Vietnam (Annam) was part of China on and off for over 1,000 years; and the south, by the end of Chinese colonization was controlled by Champa, a Malay people (Austronesian).

    As far as I know there was a massive influx of Han Chinese into the region during the Song Dynasty due to Barbarian pressure in the north. I know assimilation was fairly complete by the Tang Dynasty as Cantonese speakers often call themselves “Tong (Tang in Mandarin) People” and talk of giving their children “Tong names”. They also still refer to their province and themselves as “Yue” to this day. I’m guessing by the Late Tang, the Sinization of the area was complete, but for Annam. Vietnam became independent from China after the disintegration of the Tang, since the “Viet or Yue” people lived in what is now Guangdong as well, I’m guessing by that time the people in Guangdong were mostly Sinized, and considered themselves Han Chinese, but most of the people further South did not.

    Also, “South,” in China is the area from Shanghai down to the border of the Southeast Asian nations of Laos and Vietnam.

    Other nonHan ethnicities lived in the South, such as the Lao/Thai (Tai-Kadai language group) folks also came from Central China and were pushed South by the Han, they still have relatives in modern China like the Zhuang and Dong peoples.

    To wrap it up, it is not shocking that Han men (like many men before them all over the world) would move to an area and take it over, while enslaving, killing, or running off the native men using their superior technology and social organization. Then they would marry, rape, or concubine the local women. Men, historically, are not picky about who they have sexual relations with. In a desperate spot any woman (even a barbarian) will do.

    This new study provides more detail to earlier studies whose results where along the same lines.

    —————–

    [​IMG]

    at tip to Dienekes:

    European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication 23 January 2008; doi: 10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201998
    A spatial analysis of genetic structure of human populations in China reveals distinct difference between maternal and paternal lineages

    Fuzhong Xue et al.

    Analyses of archeological, anatomical, linguistic, and genetic data suggested consistently the presence of a significant boundary between the populations of north and south in China. However, the exact location and the strength of this boundary have remained controversial. In this study, we systematically explored the spatial genetic structure and the boundary of north–south division of human populations using mtDNA data in 91 populations and Y-chromosome data in 143 populations. Our results highlight a distinct difference between spatial genetic structures of maternal and paternal lineages. A substantial genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is the characteristic of maternal structure, with a significant uninterrupted genetic boundary extending approximately along the Huai River and Qin Mountains north to Yangtze River. On the paternal side, however, no obvious genetic differentiation between northern and southern populations is revealed.

    Han Chinese Y Chromosome Test Results | The Postnational Monitor
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    It is evident from history, archaeological finds, genomes, genetics that the it is a myth that the Han is one homogeneous lot.

    The theory that Han people are one people is false and is contrived and a thuggery perpetrated through Chinese history so as to project with vigour the unquenching, insatiable Han thirst for hegemonic and imperialist pursuits that is evident even today!

    Confucian through his edicts concentrated on concern about the harmony and stability of the order of Han world.

    Government and society in China were grounded in the Confucian philosophy, which held that there was a basic order in the universe and a natural harmony linking man, nature, and the cosmos (heaven); it also held that man was by nature a social being, and that the natural order of the universe should be reflected in human relations.

    Even today, under a radically different form of government, the Chinese term for state is "guo-jia" or "nation-family", suggesting the survival of the idea of this paternal and consensual relationship. The first and third of the "five relationships" Confucius propounded — i.e., emperor and minister, father and son — indicate the parallels between family and state.

    In short, the State was the Family and all were its children who have to obey. Confucius propounded the family unit was seen as the primary social unit; relationships within the family were fundamental to all others and comprised three of the "five relationships" that were the models for all others: sovereign-subject; husband-wife; parent-child; elder brother-younger brother; friend-friend. In this hierarchy of social relations, each role had clearly defined duties; reciprocity or mutual responsibility between subordinate and superior was fundamental to the Confucian concept of human relations. The virtue of filial piety, or devotion of the child to his parents, was the foundation for all others. When extended to all human beings, it nurtured the highest virtue, humaneness ("ren" or "jen"), or the sense of relatedness to other persons.

    In traditional China it was assumed by adherents of all schools of thought that government would be monarchical and that the state had its model in the family. The ruler was understood to be at once the Son of Heaven, and the father of the people, ruling under the Mandate of Heaven. Traditional thinkers, reflecting on the problem of government, were concerned primarily not with changing institutions and laws but with ensuring the moral uprightness of the ruler and encouraging his appropriate conduct as a father-figure. The magistrate, the chief official of the lowest level of government and the official closest to the people, was known as the "father-mother" official. Even today, under a radically different form of government, the Chinese term for state is "guo-jia" or "nation-family", suggesting the survival of the idea of this paternal and consensual relationship. The first and third of the "five relationships" — i.e., emperor and minister, father and son — indicate the parallels between family and state.

    The notion of the role of the state as guarantor of the people's welfare developed very early, along with the monarchy and the bureaucratic state. It was also assumed that good government could bring about order, peace, and the good society. Tests of the good ruler were social stability, population growth (a reflection of ancient statecraft where the good ruler was one who could attract people from other states), and ability to create conditions that fostered the people's welfare. The Mandate of Heaven was understood as justifying the right to rule, with the corollary right to rebel against a ruler who did not fulfill his duties to the people. The state played a major role in determining water rights, famine control and relief, and insuring social stability. The state encouraged people to grow rice and other grains rather than commercial crops in order to insure and adequate food supply; it held reserves in state granaries, in part to lessen the effects of drought and floods, particularly common in northern China. For fear of losing the Mandate of Heaven governments levied very low taxes which often meant that the government could not provide all the services expected of it, and that officials ended up extorting money from the people.

    He also opined that Belief in the innate goodness and perfectibility of man has had strong implications for the development of the Chinese political system. The ruler's main function in the Confucian state was to educate and transform the people. This was ideally accomplished not by legal regulation and coercion, but by personal rule, moral example, and mediation in disputes by the emperor and his officials. Confucian political theory emphasized conflict resolution through mediation, rather than through the application of abstract rules to establish right and wrong in order to achieve social harmony.

    This came in the form of Legalism - a unique Chinese trait and custom.

    n Chinese history, Legalism was a philosophy emphasizing strict obedience to the legal system. It was one of the main philosophic currents during the Warring States period. It was a utilitarian political philosophy that did not address higher questions like the purpose and nature of life.[1] The school's most famous proponent and contributor Han Fei believed that a ruler should use the following three tools to govern his subjects:

    Fa (Chinese: 法, p fǎ, lit. "law"): The law code must be clearly written and made public. All people under the ruler were equal before the law. Laws should reward those who obey them and punish accordingly those who dare to break them. Thus it is guaranteed that actions taken are systematically predictable. In addition, the system of law, not the ruler, ran the state, a statement of rule of law. If the law is successfully enforced, even a weak ruler will be strong.
    Shu (術, p shù, lit. "method"): Special tactics and "secrets" are to be employed by the ruler to make sure others don't take over control of the state. Especially important is that no one can fathom the ruler's motivations, and thus no one can know which behavior might help them get ahead, other than following the laws.
    Shi (勢, p shì, lit."legitimacy"): It is the position of the ruler, not the ruler himself or herself, that holds the power. Therefore, analysis of the trends, the context, and the facts are essential for a real ruler.

    Legalism

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    And so, irrespective who you were or what was your roots, you had to belong to the all embracing Han family!
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    I had a further ponder, and this oddity works in Asia, too.

    In China, it is taken for granted that the north of the country is a bit dour, hard-drinking, chilly and full of noodle and pancake eaters (because they grow wheat up there). Beijing is the epitome of the north: a political town obsessed with power, stuck-up, freezing in winter etc.

    Down south, people are much less interested in politics because they are obsessed with business and getting rich, you will hear. The pace of life is at once more frenetic and more laid-back: southern Chinese are entrepreneurial, fun-loving rice-eaters. Think Shanghai and Guangzhou.


    North v South: Why is it grim up north? | The Economist
     
  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project

    L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza

    he Chinese population comprises one-fifth of the human species. The Chinese government officially recognizes 56 ethnic groups, one of which is the Han majority (1 billion and 100 million people), and the other 55 are ethnic minorities (totaling about 100 million). The latter are spread over most of China, but especially in the south. Close to half of the minorities are found in one of the 28 provinces of China, Yunnan. The distinction is primarily linguistic but corresponds closely to other cultural differences. The paper by Chu et al. published in this issue of the Proceedings (1) explores the genetic stratification of about half of the official ethnic subdivisions by means of microsatellites, a class of genetic markers recently discovered that has proved very useful for several purposes. The paper represents the collective effort of several institutes participating in the Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project (CHGDP). The broader Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) was generated in 1991 by the international Human Genome Organization (HUGO) and is regionally organized (see Morrison Institute for Population and Resource Studies -). The CHGDP has started collecting cell lines from the official ethnic groups and testing their DNAs. The 56 official ethnic groups do not exhaust current Chinese diversity, as there are more than 100 languages spoken in China, but they include the most important ones.

    Microsatellites are repeats of short DNA segments, practically less than five nucleotides long. They have a high mutation rate and therefore a large number of alleles, which makes them perhaps three times more informative on average than the most common type of genetic polymorphisms, single nucleotide substitutions, which are mostly biallelic. They are used very widely in genetic linkage studies and have begun to be used in evolutionary analyses (e.g., refs. 2–4). Thirty microsatellites were tested by Chu et al. (1) for reconstructing a tree of 14 East Asian populations, which were studied along with 11 populations of a standard set representing the rest of the world. A subset of 15 of the same microsatellites were used to construct a second tree from 32 East Asian populations. These include the first 14 and are compared with the same 11 populations from the rest of the world.

    Bootstrap (5, 6) values (measures of reproducibility of the tree branchings, varying from 0 to 100) are high in both trees for the fewer populations outside East Asia, which are rather remote both geographically and genetically from each other. These comparisons present the greatest genetic divergence, and their analysis by tree is therefore more reproducible. Results agree closely with a previous comparable analysis (2). The comparisons among East Asian populations involve much smaller genetic differences and, as expected, bootstrap values are much smaller. Because of their closer geographic proximity they are also likely to have had a much greater reciprocal gene flow than the more distant populations from the rest of the world. Studying populations much closer geographically and genetically puts analysis by tree to a more severe test. Even so, all East Asian populations cluster together in both trees. Their nearest genetic neighbors from the rest of the world are, not surprisingly, Native Americans. A little less close genetically is the small cluster formed by Australian aborigines and New Guineans, in agreement with the fact that Australia was settled before the Americas and had more time to differentiate (7, 8).

    The first outlier within the East Asian cluster of the first tree is the Cambodian branch, and the second a small cluster made of two Altaic language-speaking populations (Buryat and Yakut). These populations live not too far from China, south and north of it, respectively. The other 11 East Asians form two fairly sharp clusters. One includes four Taiwan aborigines and two Chinese ethnic minorities from the western part of the Yunnan province. The other cluster includes Korean, Manchu, Japanese, and two groups of Han (one from Yunnan and the other from the United States). Usually, most Chinese immigrants to the U.S. (and to other countries, like Singapore, Malaysia, the Philippines, Taiwan, etc.) come from southern China, and this is certainly true of the cell lines from California residents from China born in the mainland, collected by Louise Chen and Alice Lin at Stanford and used in our surveys (2, 7, 8). Han living in the south of China mostly came originally from the north, but they did so at very different times, and thus had different times for gene flow from the earlier settlers, that is the minorities. In general, there is a correlation between the average genotype for protein polymorphisms of Hans from the different provinces and of local minorities, but there are exceptions (R. Du, H. Chungtze, E. Minch, and L.L.C.-S., unpublished work).

    The second tree is based on more populations but fewer microsatellites, and the bootstraps are inevitably worse in the East Asian part of the tree. Conclusions therefore must be taken with greater caution. The southern group of populations falls into three clusters. S1 contains all four Taiwan aborigines and five Yunnan ethnic minorities. S2 contains Cambodians and six ethnic minorities from various southern provinces other than Yunnan, and also Han from the province of Henan, a north-central province on the north-south boundary. S3 is the tightest cluster and is made up of only two minorities, both from western Yunnan.

    The northern group of populations falls into two clusters, N1 and N2. N1 is a classical northern cluster, with Japanese, Manchu, Korean, and Siberian. The Chinese are Han from the North—the northern Chinese by definition— and Han from the Yunnan, probably late immigrants who had no time to receive gene flow from the local people.

    There are also the Uyghur from the Xinjang province at the extreme west of China, who received a ca. 25% genetic contribution from ancestors of European origin, showing in their genes and, albeit qualitatively, in their phenotype and dresses (9). Their mummies, the oldest of which are from 3,800 years ago, show unquestionable evidence of European origins in their physical and cultural traits. They are probably descendants of people speaking Tocharian, an extinct Indo-European language. The residual 75% of their genotype must be from admixture with neighbors: 1% gene flow per generation (a very modest quantity) would be enough to cause the level of admixture observed (8).

    N2 includes four minorities. Of these minorities, Evenki live in extreme northeast China but their origin is likely to be from Siberia. Tibetans are located in the southwest, but their origin from northern China is well established historically. The other two are minorities from a northern province and a south-central one. Strangely, N2 is part of the genetic cluster that includes all three southern groups, and in fact associates in the tree with S2. This finding is unexpected and requires an explanation. Chu et al. (1) acknowledge that statistical support of the N2-S2 relationship is weak and there may be a need of a greater number of microsatellites. Another possibility is the inappropriateness of a tree to represent a situation in which there is considerable admixture of the groups. Chu et al. have used the neighbor-joining method (NJ) of tree reconstruction (10), which has practical advantages, but it is hard to agree with their statement that NJ is “supposedly more robust in the presence of genetic admixture,” except for the word “supposedly.” In fact, I believe, on the basis of considerable simulation experience, published only in very small part (4), that admixture generates tree errors with NJ more easily than with other methods that we have tested. Chu et al. mention the possibility that the populations of cluster N2 were more exposed to southern admixture (excluding Ewenki).

    Chu et al. draw a number of conclusions, the most general of which is: “It is now probably safe to conclude that modern humans originated in Africa constitute the majority of the current gene pool in East Asia.” This should help refute the claim that there is a continuity of evolution from Homo erectus to modern humans in East Asia, as maintained by supporters of the multiregional hypothesis (11). The basis of this hypothesis came from paleoanthropological observations that have been criticized (12). Another stronghold of the multiregional hypothesis was the transformation of Neanderthal in modern humans in Europe, and also this has been falsified by an analysis of DNA of the Neanderthal par excellence (13).

    Chu et al. strongly support the existence of a genetic difference between northern and southern Chinese, which, as mentioned in their paper, already was reached by a variety of other approaches, archeological, craniometric, and dental. The first genetic claim of this kind known to me is the demonstration of a strong difference in the frequencies of Gm markers (14). This is likely to be tied to a strong epidemiological difference. Other “classical” protein polymorphisms (blood groups, enzymes, and HLA) gave results very similar (8, 15) to those obtained with DNA markers in the present work.

    Another source of information is surnames. They are transmitted like Y chromosomes and therefore may give results somewhat discrepant from those obtained by genes transmitted biparentally. Characteristics transmitted patrilinearly tend to be more highly clustered geographically than those transmitted matrilinearly like mtDNA and may be more useful on average than other DNA markers for reconstructing more ancient migrations (16).

    In China surnames are particularly useful, being on average much older than in other parts of the world (15). In older times, however, some surnames were in part transmitted matrilinearly, as seems reasonable to infer from the presence of a female, or a male symbol in the characters of some older surnames, and from other more direct historical evidence. A China-U.S. team has analyzed surnames from a 1/2,000 random sample of the Chinese population, by standard techniques of population genetics, and the picture is largely superimposable on the genetic one. In fact, it is much more detailed given the magnitude of the sample and the number of “alleles” (surnames). The northern provinces are more homogeneous than the southern ones, among which three major subclusters seem fairly clear cut. The most distinct one is a group of four eastern provinces, including Shanghai. The far south is divided into two clusters. The three coastal provinces, Fujian, Guangdong, and Guangxi, form one, and the six others the rest. Tibet is not included in this analysis, for linguistic reasons. The greater geographic homogeneity of the north is shown especially by the difference between the linear regressions of the average distance between surnames on geographic distance. The slope of the northern provinces is at least four times smaller than that of the southern ones.

    That the south of China is more heterogeneous than the north of China seems to be true without exception, from history to geography, ecology and culture, and now genetics. The greater heterogeneity of southern China is likely to reflect the greater geographic fragmentation of this area, resulting in greater isolation of local populations, probably mostly determined by the nature of the environment.

    The surname border between north and south China is approximately intermediate between the two major rivers, the Yellow and the Yang-Tze. The discontinuity already is found in the paleolithic (17). Also neolithic developments were different and largely independent of each other in north and south China, probably for ecological reasons. Different plants and animals were domesticated. There is substantial agreement between archeological findings, genetic, and surname data.

    At the end Chu et al. (1) discuss possible patterns of prehistoric expansions in East Asia, and in particular the question of whether people speaking Altaic languages originated from Middle Asia or East Asia. They give reasons why the latter seems preferable. As they acknowledge, their analysis suffers from lack of mid-Asian data. Nevertheless, their conjecture may be correct for another reason. Expansions from Africa to the rest of the world did not, or not necessarily, occur through the Middle East. When the earliest modern humans first settled the Middle East from Africa around 100,000 years ago, they had not yet developed the behavioral adaptations that helped them in their expansion out of Africa (18). They probably later abandoned the area, which was inhabited by Neanderthals around 60,000 years ago. But this is the most likely time when the major expansions of behaviorally modern human from Africa to Asia began. At least some of these may have started from nearer to the equator, perhaps from East Africa. If the European neolithic expansion can serve as a model of a much earlier one, it is useful to remember that it spread most easily along the coasts of the Mediterranean or along major rivers of central Europe. To settle Australia about 40,000 or 50,000 years ago (19), some navigation skills were necessary for crossing multiple tracts of sea (8). If such skills were already available to East Africans, the settlement of south Asia from East Africa might have begun along its southern coast, perhaps 10,000 years earlier or more (19). This would have given modern humans a chance to reach Southeast Asia fairly rapidly and from there, both Australia and East Asia, without major changes in food procurement techniques or climate adjustments. It also would favor the idea that Middle Asia was reached in the sequence Southeast Asia → East Asia → Middle Asia. From East Asia, Northeast Asia also could be reached and finally America.

    It is very encouraging to see a cooperative effort of this magnitude beginning to take place in this most important part of the world, and Chu et al. are to be warmly congratulated for it. It is also important that their experience has made them aware that the number of markers must be greatly increased. This applies to practically every other paper recently published. For a long time, markers were simply not available, or difficult to study, but the situation is changing rapidly and very significantly. Bootstrap values demonstrate that large numbers of genetic markers are necessary for really solid conclusions. Variety of markers is also important (20). This shows that, in spite of the need of small amounts of DNA for PCRs, the strategy of collecting cell lines remains a necessary part of an HGDP program.

    Whether one uses for research DNA extracted from blood, or other biological materials, including cell lines, there arise ethical problems that have been widely discussed. The North American Region of the HGDP has prepared a model ethical protocol (see Morrison Institute for Population and Resource Studies - and ref. 21), which examines these issues in great detail. The UNESCO International Bioethics Committee’s Subcommittee on Bioethics and Population Genetics (see http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/∼macer/PG.html and ref. 22), the Committee on Human Genome Diversity convened by the U.S. National Research Council (23), and the HUGO Committee on Ethical, Legal and Social Issues (see http://hugo.gdb.org: 80/conduct.htm) all have praised the model ethical protocol, while offering their own suggestions about appropriate ethical constraints on this kind of work. These issues obviously play a crucial role in such research everywhere in the world, although the exact ethical problems and solutions may differ among cultures.

    The Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project
     

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