Lockheed May Pitch F-35; GoI Says No Plans to Buy F-35

[thakur_ritesh]

makes me recall what yusuf and rahul singh said post eft and rafale were short listed.

anyways, if MoD and IAF will take the call on this offer then there will be an official statement coming from IAF or antony will himself make the announcement rejecting the offer and will happen in a matter of days but in case PMO gets involved then this will be a three way contest, and expect a delayed response. keep an eye on col. ajai shukla's blog, he was not so long back very aggressively pitching f35 and for now he could be the best source on what all is happening behind the scene, at least he will shed good light on the thinking in the LM circles.

that said, looks to me, IAF and MoD will have the final say and this offer will be rejected, browne would like to make sure this is done within his tenure as the ACM.

all those wondering what the cost for 126 would be, article puts the price tag at 133mil/jet, and the cost comes close to 17b usd.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I thought the F-35 was on R&D still and what off-set clause and ToT will they give for an Stealth Fighter? How can such sensitive technology be give away!

Moreover the F-35 carries just 2 missiles!

 

[Immanuel]

i think with a big enough order like 250 they can squeeze the price down. F-35 has a global supply chain, i am sure India with a big enough order comes leverage, we can squeeze good amounts of customization into the aircraft, India can be a second assembly line away from home, sure full-tot wont happen but i am sure we'll have good access to the aircraft. There are enough test aircraft out there. The US should bring their latest test variants, fly the aircraft through its entire envelope in these tough conditions, if it can fly in such a strict trial program, well IAF should buy it, it certainly wont stop the PAKFA or the AMCA.

Google Image Result for http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/PUB_F-35_Industrial_Map_2008_lg.jpg

 

[ace009]

I am sure the F-35 will NOT make it to the MMRCA program.
However, I would love to see the F-35 being bought by India to replace the AMCA (Already Mythical Combat Aircraft) program of DRDO. Between DRDO, MoD and IAF, the AMCA program has gone through 3 change cycles. The scope creep has been so high that the AMCA wind tunnel model has been changed three times in 3 years! And add to that DRDO has NO idea about stealth, supercruise and no AESA Radar of it's own. So, the AMCA in the best case will look like the Arjun Mk I, developed after 30 years (2030) with still 55% foreign components and at worst will look like the BHIM, "in development" for 30 years with no guns. My bet is it will be somewhere in the middle, with a twin-engine version of the LCA with some RAM coating to reduce RCS, no true stealth, no real supercruise and a rudimentary AESA radar with limited range. And we will spend $8-10 billion to do all that. Any bets otherwise?

Rather than that, MoD can play it smart, haggle with the Americans and get into the JSF program now, where they would only pay into a small part of a massive R&D cost, get a decent 5th gen strike fighter, including one with naval carrier capability for future Indian carriers. If dealt correctly, IAF can get the hands on the source codes for mission programming (like the Israelies do) and get their own electronic suit (or the Israeli one, which is independent of USA). MoD has to be smart and strong - they are the buyers and "one who pays the piper, calls the tune".

As for the JSF abilities, it is excellent as a strike fighter and pretty good in protecting itself. It carries 4 (not 2) internal pylons for AA missiles and 6 external hardpoints for A2G roles. It also is fast, highly maneuverable and damn more stealthy than anything else out there except for the F-22.

At $125 million per plane, $10 billion gets us 80 fighters. Let's say we pay another $1 billion for maintenance etc, so for $11 billion, IAF/IN can have 80 F-35 JSF in another 10 years. Anybody here thinks that the DRDO can beat THAT with AMCA?

 

[Koovie]

I dont think that MoD will change its decision about the MMRCA competition. But the F-35 would be good for the navy

 

[weg]

i think with a big enough order like 250 they can squeeze the price down. F-35 has a global supply chain, i am sure India with a big enough order comes leverage, we can squeeze good amounts of customization into the aircraft, India can be a second assembly line away from home,

There is a order of 3500 and they can't squeeze the price down to $200 million, never mind $100million. India's order of $10billion is nothing in a 350billion dollar project. India probably won't get anything in the way of offsets and the aircraft won't come with advanced radar either. Customisations? forget it. Assembly line? no chance. You won't have a chance of seeing an aircraft for five years either. A minor point is that its utterly unsuitable for India's defence needs, but there chance it will be considered as it was rejected long ago.

 

[ace009]

There is a order of 3500 and they can't squeeze the price down to $200 million, never mind $100million. India's order of $10billion is nothing in a 350billion dollar project. India probably won't get anything in the way of offsets and the aircraft won't come with advanced radar either. Customisations? forget it. Assembly line? no chance. You won't have a chance of seeing an aircraft for five years either. A minor point is that its utterly unsuitable for India's defence needs, but there chance it will be considered as it was rejected long ago.

This is what Pack Leader, the Israeli guy had to say ...

SADAKHUSH do your own math 115 mil per plane + approx 1 billion in logistics
we pay 2.7 Bilion for 20 planes + option for 50 more for 5 billion
Canada's offer should be cheaper because they are buying base model

So, Why can't India have 80 planes for $11 Billion? And customization - the Israeli's are having it, and cheaper too!

As for advanced Radar, Any AESA will be good since the AMCA will not have any AESA till 2025 in all probabilities ...

 

[utubekhiladi]

India's order of $10billion is nothing in a 350billion dollar project.

$11 billion dollar is just the beginning cost and only for the fighters. now, add the cost for weapon packages, training simulators, long term spares, services and maintenance. not to mention that 5th gen aircrafts are hanger empress. they require heavy maintenance. even if we buy EF or DR then this 11$ billion dollar deal can easily go anywhere to 60-80 billion dollars in the long run. that's the reason why usa is lobbying very hard in mmrca tender.

 

[utubekhiladi]

This is what Pack Leader, the Israeli guy had to say ...


So, Why can't India have 80 planes for $11 Billion? And customization - the Israeli's are having it, and cheaper too!

As for advanced Radar, Any AESA will be good since the AMCA will not have any AESA till 2025 in all probabilities ...

we will have FGFA by 2020................

 

[utubekhiladi]

Anybody here thinks that the DRDO can beat THAT with AMCA?

if you develop a fifth gen aircraft then it should not necessarily beat F-35 or 22's. every fighters have their own purposes.

 

[The Messiah]

Don't want.

FGFA will be more than adequate for china while mki is better than anything the pakiis have got.

Lets not waste money on this...rather we should use it towards AMCA even if its inferior because we must be self reliant and we've got to start somewhere.

 

[ace009]

if you develop a fifth gen aircraft then it should not necessarily beat F-35 or 22's. every fighters have their own purposes.

By "Beat" I did not mean beat in a dogfight or a BVR combat - I meant beat in terms of development speed and quality.

$11 billion dollar is just the beginning cost and only for the fighters. now, add the cost for weapon packages, training simulators, long term spares, services and maintenance. not to mention that 5th gen aircrafts are hanger empress. they require heavy maintenance. even if we buy EF or DR then this 11$ billion dollar deal can easily go anywhere to 60-80 billion dollars in the long run. that's the reason why usa is lobbying very hard in mmrca tender.

I have no idea where you get those figures from. Even if it was true, - how are you so sure it is not going to happen for other projects? We have already seen cost escalation from the Russians - Gorshkov and Brahmos. The Submarine deal.
With the French - Scorpene submarine. Mirage upgrades.
Why do you think it can't happen with PAK-FA or Rafale? Actually, if you look at it, US deals have been cleaner, with faster delivery - C-17 and C130J. Actually I hope that India selects the Apache Longbow which will be delivered on time.
So, coming back to it, except for indigenous development, there is no other reason why AMCA is better than F-35. I would actually much prefer if DRDO starts working on a LCA Mk III with stealth features and leaves the medium combat aircraft to be f-35.

 

[ace009]

Don't want.

FGFA will be more than adequate for china while mki is better than anything the pakiis have got.

Lets not waste money on this...rather we should use it towards AMCA even if its inferior because we must be self reliant and we've got to start somewhere.

That is pure ignorance talking. IAF wants to have a 5th gen Hi-lo mix and DRDO is not the best option as we know from LOONG experience. F-35 is surer and better any way you look at it.

 

[asianobserve]

if you buys F-35, americans will put lot of conditions like you should use f-35 fighter for defense only. i.e we can't use f-35 to bomb terrorist camp in pakistan. Americans geeks will show up every other day demanding through inspection of each and every F-35 that you have. they will check inventory of your f-35 missiles and weapons whenever they want. (this information can also be traded with pakistan). Americans will know where your F-35s are all the time and where you store your weapons and missiles.

plus, if anything like sep 11 happens, then amercians will pull the plug and stop supplies of F-35's and its spare parts (they have done this even to nato countries). plus they will force you to sign all other agreements that americans wants you to sign. it is a complete surrender.

enough said, i hope u got the point.

It seems to me that American geeks do not bother the Israeli much... They're always bombing the Palestinians with American made weapons...

 

[utubekhiladi]

By "Beat" I did not mean beat in a dogfight or a BVR combat - I meant beat in terms of development speed and quality. I have no idea where you get those figures from. Even if it was true, - how are you so sure it is not going to happen for other projects? We have already seen cost escalation from the Russians - Gorshkov and Brahmos. The Submarine deal.

if russians and france can escalate the cost, then so can the Americans. can some one take guarantee that Americans will not escalate the prize? i am estimating that each f-35 will cost somewhere around 200-250 million dollars without weapon packages. so this deal is more than 11 billions dollars right? so it will be a sin to say

India's order of $10billion is nothing in a 350billion dollar project.

Actually, if you look at it, US deals have been cleaner, with faster delivery - C-17 and C130J

do you know that USA stripped all goodies from C-17's?; they billed us three times for each C-17's compared to regular market price sold to other countries. it came with lots of agreements and strings; how can you justify that US deals is cleaner?

except for indigenous development, there is no other reason why AMCA is better than F-35

AMCA is not developed yet. so it will be foolishness to predict the future. when India first bought su30 in 1997, it was just an another ordinary plane but after heavy trolls and sweats, it is now a completely different beast. of-course, AMCA will come with an incredible tag called 'indigenous' and we will able to do whatever we want with it. AMCA will boost our own defence industry, helps us to develop more innovative technology and will pave the way for future. if we buy F-35, it will be just another plane with out any knowledge transfer. F-35 will come with many many constraints and agreements. USA is the same country which prohibited Israel to give us AESA for tejas. we cannot be dependent on foreign technology for all the eternity. F-35 is a good plane, no doubt about it.. but considering all the above scenario, AMCA is 100 times better than F-35

even if we buy F-35 assuming F-35 will get FOC by 2015, we won't see delivery anytime soon before 2025. because USA has to fill its own inventory first with F-35, followed by other major nato allies. in the mean time by 2025, we might have at-least 3-5 squadrons of FGFA and couple of prototypes for AMCA.

simply put, F-35 do no fit into Indian scenario.

 

[utubekhiladi]

I have no idea where you get those figures from.

Parliamentary Budget Officer Kevin Page said in a report that Canada should expect to dole out as much as C$29.3 billion ($30 billion) for the purchase and maintenance of 65 F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter over 30 years.

Canada Opposition Unhappy With F-35's Costs - Defense News

so, considering 30 billion dollars for only 65 F-35's i was fair enough to say the following in my earlier post if we select F-35 then

this 11$ billion dollar deal can easily go anywhere to 60-80 billion dollars in the long run. that's the reason why usa is lobbying very hard in mmrca tender.

 

[plugwater]

So, Why can't India have 80 planes for $11 Billion? And customization - the Israeli's are having it, and cheaper too!.

Price of C-130 for Canada is 85 million and us is 170 million,
Price of C-17 for Canada is 200 million and for us is 410 million,
Price of F-35 for Canada is 140 million and for us ? You do the math!

 

[utubekhiladi]

Price of C-130 for Canada is 85 million and us is 170 million,
Price of C-17 for Canada is 200 million and for us is 410 million,
Price of F-35 for Canada is 140 million and for us ? You do that math!

yep, i was looking for that data.., thanks for providing this.

 

[nimo_cn]

Why am I thinking this to be an attempt to ruin the India's MMRCA program?

 

[utubekhiladi]

Why am I thinking this to be an attempt to ruin the India's MMRCA program?

most of the people here have the same opinion like u. but i think usa is desperate to get into Indian defense market.