J20 Stealth Fighter

[Willy2]

You said the WS10 was unproven and being used "on J10's for ego", I asked that you substantiate that comment. What leads you to believe its "unproven" and being used for "ego"?

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.WK6RHjt9601

Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

http://www.china-arms.com/2015/10/another-j-10-crash-caused-by-engine-problem-reported-officially/

According to reports on the internet, Chengdu J-10 fighter also crashes at least in 2010 and 2014, which were mostly caused by engine problem

J-10 jet fighter basically uses Russia AL-31FN engine, which has design defects, including material and technological flaws, and poor lubrication, which would cause engine cut-off. In another case reported by CCTV, another pilot of J-10 fighter Li Yong encountered such circumstance, he received two warnings before AL-31FN engine finally stopped, and later he managed to crash land his plane without any power.

J-10A and J-10B fighters have also been trying homemade WS-10A engine. But it seems that AL-31FN engine remains a standard engine for J-10 fighters.

Question is , does CCP leadership want to cover WS-10 under AL-31F ??Al-31 was very proven engine , in case of India ,in SU-30 crashes it's find out that using low quality aviation fuel is the reason for Sukhois engine failure , but as the excuse sited here , it really unrealistic that a mature engine would have these problem.

Ur Airforce no longer dare to use WS-10 anymore as J-10 is single engine and a engine with life span <1500 hrs and 300 hrs flight /maintenance can't be use in single-engine jet .
J-11 have this advantage as in anycase one engine stop other atleast can land the aircraft , thats why we don't find much of J-11 news .

 

[Willy2]

J11 is much more relevant to SU35 than the J20 is. They are completely different aircraft. Shenyang produces the Sino-Flanker aircraft in the Chinese inventory. The J20 is a stealth aircraft developed by the Chengdu Institute, not Shenyang.

I don't understand why you're trying to relate the SU35 purchase to the J20.

PS. The WS10 may be in the same thrust category as the AL31 series, but it was based on the CFM-56II core, which itself is based on the F101 engine. You said the WS10 was unproven and being used "on J10's for ego", I asked that you substantiate that comment. What leads you to believe its "unproven" and being used for "ego"?

u can't wake up those who refuses to wake up , J-20 related to Su 35 , because of WS-15 related to 117S and not to mention Irbis-E

 

[J20!]

@J20! What sensor and weapons dos the J 20 use for air surface operation?

We have yet to see images of J20 tests with Air-to-surface munitions, so I can only speculate as to which munitions currently available from Chinese manufactures will feature on the J20. The only armaments we've seeen actually mounted are PL10 SRAAM's and what looks like a modified PL12 BVRM in prototype weapons bays.

As to sensors. Most of the sensors seen in images of the prototypes and LRIP birds have been seen testing on the Tu204 being used to develop the J20's sensor suite.

Chengdu seems to have been deploying a parallel test schedule by using the prototypes for aerodynamic testing whilst concurrently testing the J20's sensor suite on the Tu204 platform to speed up development.

There may be no publicly available specifications for the radar suite on the J20, but it seems to have been the first J20 sensor system tested aboard the Tu204 platform.

If the EOTS-like antennae under the J20's chin works in a similar fashion to the F35,s then it should also be used for air-to-surface targeting and awareness. This antennae was integrated onto the TU204 platform much later than it was on the J20 prototypes suggesting that that antennae was there for aerodynamic tests on the prototypes and weren't actively being tested.

The other antennae visible are optical infrared windows distributed around the air-frame and what appears to be a forward facing electronic jammer near the DSI inlets.

Henri K at East pendulum has a great analysis of the J20's sensor suite based on images of the LRIP aircraft and the TU 204 test platform:

http://www.eastpendulum.com/essais-systemes-avioniques-j-20-evoluent

You'll have to use google translate; the article's in French. Its easier if you're using Chrome.

 

[J20!]

Read that report it's Russian media who were threatening to sue Chinese few years back over J 11 being a Copy of SU 27SK

"Russian media" or the Russian government? The Russians have never filed any political protests or legal case over Shenyang locally building Sukhoi based aircraft. If you have evidence of any such protest, please provide it.

Why are your Ranting then ? I get it these PL Chinese Missile are derived from Licensed Copies.

That's because you Test, verifiy the result and then built the infrastructure to manufacture it in House as in the case with Astra. It's not an inferior copy of any missile neither India being Humiliated by Russians like Chinese to steal their IP.


One inducted it will be exported to other Nations and will be much better than Chinese made inferior clones with more than 100 km Range for Mk 2.

Whereas yours are just clones made without any shame.

I'm not ranting, just exhaustively countering your illogical assertions and comments.

How exactly do you know they are "inferior copies"? The PL12 is a 100km+ BVR missile that was first deployed by the PLAAF in 2005. Its now widely deployed in the PLAAF and PLANAF on the J8, J10A/B/C, J11A/B/BH and on the J15. A development of that missile has been seen mounted on the J20.

Astra is still being tested TO THIS DAY, and is not active on any operational jets in the IAF. Didn't Astra fail an IAF acceptance test in December?

How exactly is an unproven missile better than a proven, indigenous missile that has been operational for a decade + and is active on the entire 4th gen aircraft fleet in the PLA? Its even been exported more than once and has been developed into a medium range SAM system available for export.

That's why I call you and the likes of @HariPrasad-1 jingoistic fanboys. Because you blindly call something "junk" or deride it as an inferior copy purely based on nationalistic grounds and not on performance based merit.

 

[J20!]

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/11/zhuhai-air-show-2014-ws-10-engine-is.html#.WK6RHjt9601

Interview with Mr. Dong, a exhibitor of China aviation research 606 institute on production of WS-10 engine :

WS10 pre-study started from year 1978, project set up in year 1987. Mr.Dong said, WS10 had been massively mounted on the J-10 B and J-11B fighters.

Reporter: Can you please shed some light on the life sapn of WS10 compared with Russian and United States fouth generation engine?

Mr. Dong: We are slightly inferior in that part,while we have a larger room for progress. Such as some of the material shows good performance data in scientific research test, but in practical application, is still not satisfactory. It is the difficult part of aero engine development, It takes decades to improve its stability and even so with USA, not including the conceptual phase of the engine.

http://www.china-arms.com/2015/10/another-j-10-crash-caused-by-engine-problem-reported-officially/

According to reports on the internet, Chengdu J-10 fighter also crashes at least in 2010 and 2014, which were mostly caused by engine problem

J-10 jet fighter basically uses Russia AL-31FN engine, which has design defects, including material and technological flaws, and poor lubrication, which would cause engine cut-off. In another case reported by CCTV, another pilot of J-10 fighter Li Yong encountered such circumstance, he received two warnings before AL-31FN engine finally stopped, and later he managed to crash land his plane without any power.

J-10A and J-10B fighters have also been trying homemade WS-10A engine. But it seems that AL-31FN engine remains a standard engine for J-10 fighters.

Question is , does CCP leadership want to cover WS-10 under AL-31F ??Al-31 was very proven engine , in case of India ,in SU-30 crashes it's find out that using low quality aviation fuel is the reason for Sukhois engine failure , but as the excuse sited here , it really unrealistic that a mature engine would have these problem.

Ur Airforce no longer dare to use WS-10 anymore as J-10 is single engine and a engine with life span <1500 hrs and 300 hrs flight /maintenance can't be use in single-engine jet .
J-11 have this advantage as in anycase one engine stop other atleast can land the aircraft , thats why we don't find much of J-11 news .

1. WS10 has NOT BEEN "massively mounted on J10B". As I pointed out when I replied to your post, PLAAF J10B/C operate on AL-31FN's exclusively. The only images available of WS10's on J10 airframes are of two prototypes being TESTED WITH THE WS10A.

2. Most J10 crashes have been attributed to engine failure because AL31F is not reliable on a single-engine fighter, but its the best engine available for the J10, which is why the AL31FN was specifically developed for the J10(changed geabox position to fit in the J10).

3. You didn't answer the question. Why does the PLAAF using the WS10 on its flanker fleet amount to "ego"?

 

[Bornubus]

"Russian media" or the Russian government? The Russians have never filed any political protests or legal case over Shenyang locally building Sukhoi based aircraft. If you have evidence of any such protest, please provide it.

Read that Russian report (source given above) before whining. I am not debating on behalf of Russians why they did or did not pursue a case with Chinese.


J 11 is a copy of SU 27 is a proven fact. So deal with it.

I'm not ranting, just exhaustively countering your illogical assertions and comments.

How exactly do you know they are "inferior copies"? The PL12 is a 100km+ BVR missile that was first deployed by the PLAAF in 2005. Its now widely deployed in the PLAAF and PLANAF on the J8, J10A/B/C, J11A/B/BH and on the J15. A development of that missile has been seen mounted on the J20.

Astra is still being tested TO THIS DAY, and is not active on any operational jets in the IAF. Didn't Astra fail an IAF acceptance test in December?

The only dumbfuck fanboy is you my Retard Chinese who is trying to divert the debate by mentioning Astra and its test with his Chinese Missiles although the original point was that PL Missies were initially license copies which i proved in my previous post.


Neither i claimed that Astra never failed in test. And since when Chinese started to publish their test results ?


Nobody is interested in your blabbering about J 11 ABCDEF and PL 12 bla bla bla. Now go cry in the corner.

 

[J20!]

Read that Russian report (source given above) before whining. I am not debating on behalf of Russians why they did or did not pursue a case with Chinese.


J 11 is a copy of SU 27 is a proven fact. So deal with it.

J11B is a copy of the SU27 airframe. I did not dispute that. I asked you to prove that the Russian government was "outraged" by its development as you said. You cannot prove it, but are giving me hear-say from Russian media and throwing insults to cover your failure.

Now this dumbfuck Retard Chinese trying to divert the debate by comparing Astra with his Chinese Missiles although the original point was that PL Missies were initially license copies which i proved in my previous post.


Nobody is interested in your blabbering about J 11 ABCDEF and PL 12 bla bla bla

As is usual with fanboys and trolls, they revert to personal attacks and blustering when presented with facts that don't confirm with their nationalistic thinking. Try researching before exposing your ignorance

I'll ask again... You said Astra is better than "Chinese inferior copies". I'm asking, which missile is the PL12 a copy of. And how is your (still being tested) missile superior to it?

AGAIN. PL is not a missile series. Its a designation for "air-to-air" missile. There are many types of missiles in the PLAAF with the PL designation with different manufacturers and designers.

Stop trolling and post something relevant to this thread other than childish rants and tantrums..

 

[Bahamut]

We have yet to see images of J20 tests with Air-to-surface munitions, so I can only speculate as to which munitions currently available from Chinese manufactures will feature on the J20. The only armaments we've seeen actually mounted are PL10 SRAAM's and what looks like a modified PL12 BVRM in prototype weapons bays.

As to sensors. Most of the sensors seen in images of the prototypes and LRIP birds have been seen testing on the Tu204 being used to develop the J20's sensor suite.

Chengdu seems to have been deploying a parallel test schedule by using the prototypes for aerodynamic testing whilst concurrently testing the J20's sensor suite on the Tu204 platform to speed up development.

There may be no publicly available specifications for the radar suite on the J20, but it seems to have been the first J20 sensor system tested aboard the Tu204 platform.

If the EOTS-like antennae under the J20's chin works in a similar fashion to the F35,s then it should also be used for air-to-surface targeting and awareness. This antennae was integrated onto the TU204 platform much later than it was on the J20 prototypes suggesting that that antennae was there for aerodynamic tests on the prototypes and weren't actively being tested.

The other antennae visible are optical infrared windows distributed around the air-frame and what appears to be a forward facing electronic jammer near the DSI inlets.

Henri K at East pendulum has a great analysis of the J20's sensor suite based on images of the LRIP aircraft and the TU 204 test platform:

http://www.eastpendulum.com/essais-systemes-avioniques-j-20-evoluent

You'll have to use google translate; the article's in French. Its easier if you're using Chrome.

Thanks,............ :biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

 

[J20!]

4 2400 litre EFT's seems to be the standard EFT load-out for the J20. The pitot tubes seem to suggest that these are two of the prototypes still being tested at the Yanliang Test Facility. But I could be wrong and they'd be LRIP birds in transit to the new FTTC regiment.

Photo credits to whoever "elephant" is.

 

[Bornubus]

J11B is a copy of the SU27 airframe.

I got it reatrd.

asked you to prove that the Russian government was "outraged" by its development as you said. You cannot prove it

I proved it several time. Open your Little Chinese eyes.

==============================


Russia has officially notified China of the fact that the production of J11 jet fighters, which copy Russia’s Su-27SK aircraft, violates international agreements. Moscow promised to launch legal proceedings to protect its intellectual property.


http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/economics/22-04-2008/104975-russia_china-0/


===================================================================

More



Chinese have taken reverse engineering to a different level. They have copied the German Maglev train and are now offering it to India. Their hackers stole the blueprints of France’s TGV. Chinese J-20 and J-30 stealth fighters are based on technology purloined from American companies that developed the F-35 and F-22. Virtually every missile, tank, artillery system and gun used by the Chinese military is a knockoff of a Russian original.



experts disagree. There is no doubt the J11B and J15 fighters are clones of the Su-27 and Su-33 respectively. According to Flight Global, the Chinese do not understand – or care about – the concept of intellectual property. “All the Chinese have done is performed what amounts to a mid-life update to the reverse engineered Su-33 design, but the airframe, at its core, remains a Flanker. Simply upgrading a design after stealing the intellectual property does not make an original design,”


http://rbth.com/blogs/2015/08/11/ri...offs_undercut_russian_arms_exports_48345.html

===================================================


Anger over what the Russian defense industry regarded as outright intellectual property theft contributed to a sharp slowdown in weapons transfers by the middle of last decade with Moscow reluctant to risk selling its best hardware.



Kashin said one reason for China's earlier success in copying Russian weapons was that hardware, design data and technical experts remained in countries like Ukraine and Belarus after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

China was able to gain access to this knowhow while it reverse engineered the Su-27 and Su-33, a version of the Su-27 built for aircraft carrier operations.

"The new Russian systems cannot be found in the Ukraine or Belarus," Kashin said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-russia-arms-idUSBRE92Q0PE20130327

I'll ask again... You said Astra is better than "Chinese inferior copies". I'm asking, which missile is the PL12 a copy of. And how is your (still being tested) missile superior to it?

AGAIN. PL is not a missile series. Its a designation for "air-to-air" missile. There are many types of missiles in the PLAAF with the PL designation with different manufacturers and designers.

Read my post again retard. I never mentioned about PL 12 but your earlier PL 11 which is a License Copy. By PL series i mean earliest Chinese missile with designation PL are copies like your PL 8 and PL 11 etc


Astra is better than it's class of Missile if you want to refute than post every detail of your test with proper source and dates like DRDO does. Otherwise stop Bitching like a 50 cent Chinese troll.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/j20-stealth-fighter.17450/page-115

Stop trolling

Really Bitch !


http://www.voanews.com/a/who-is-that-chinese-troll/3540663.html

 

[shiphone]

lol... don't waste your precious TIME on these, no worth it...I think it's quite good keep those ppl in the mood which they like.

---------------------
screen shots of an earlier video

 

[shiphone]

the LRIP batch of J20 fighter might be 6. four have been delivered before the Lunar year and the rest two are under flight test then...

tactical number 21-24

soon two of J20 LRIP of Test/Training Flight Base joined in the PLAAF's yearly air combat assessment competition-- Golden Helmet last November...the Two-plane formation accepted the challenges from all PLAAF fighter elite units' J11/11B Su30 J10A/B equal formations in that competition...the results revealed recently were very interesting...lol

 

[J20!]

I got it reatrd.



I proved it several time. Open your Little Chinese eyes.

==============================


Russia has officially notified China of the fact that the production of J11 jet fighters, which copy Russia’s Su-27SK aircraft, violates international agreements. Moscow promised to launch legal proceedings to protect its intellectual property.


http://www.pravdareport.com/russia/economics/22-04-2008/104975-russia_china-0/


===================================================================

More



Chinese have taken reverse engineering to a different level. They have copied the German Maglev train and are now offering it to India. Their hackers stole the blueprints of France’s TGV. Chinese J-20 and J-30 stealth fighters are based on technology purloined from American companies that developed the F-35 and F-22. Virtually every missile, tank, artillery system and gun used by the Chinese military is a knockoff of a Russian original.



experts disagree. There is no doubt the J11B and J15 fighters are clones of the Su-27 and Su-33 respectively. According to Flight Global, the Chinese do not understand – or care about – the concept of intellectual property. “All the Chinese have done is performed what amounts to a mid-life update to the reverse engineered Su-33 design, but the airframe, at its core, remains a Flanker. Simply upgrading a design after stealing the intellectual property does not make an original design,”


http://rbth.com/blogs/2015/08/11/ri...offs_undercut_russian_arms_exports_48345.html

===================================================


Anger over what the Russian defense industry regarded as outright intellectual property theft contributed to a sharp slowdown in weapons transfers by the middle of last decade with Moscow reluctant to risk selling its best hardware.



Kashin said one reason for China's earlier success in copying Russian weapons was that hardware, design data and technical experts remained in countries like Ukraine and Belarus after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

China was able to gain access to this knowhow while it reverse engineered the Su-27 and Su-33, a version of the Su-27 built for aircraft carrier operations.

"The new Russian systems cannot be found in the Ukraine or Belarus," Kashin said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-russia-arms-idUSBRE92Q0PE20130327




Read my post again retard. I never mentioned about PL 12 but your earlier PL 11 which is a License Copy. By PL series i mean earliest Chinese missile with designation PL are copies like your PL 8 and PL 11 etc


Astra is better than it's class of Missile if you want to refute than post every detail of your test with proper source and dates like DRDO does. Otherwise stop Bitching like a 50 cent Chinese troll.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/j20-stealth-fighter.17450/page-115


Really Bitch !


http://www.voanews.com/a/who-is-that-chinese-troll/3540663.html

Calling me Retard(i think that's what you were trying to spell) or Bitch, doesn't alleviate the fact that you can't show any proof of THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT BEING "OUTRAGED" AT THE MANUFACTURING OF THE J11B. That pravda article is from 2008, where is the lawsuit? Where is the diplomatic protest? Its been almost a decade...

All you've posted is Russian media articles with no quotes from Sukhoi, Rosoboronexport or Russian government officials.

Again. STOP TROLLING THIS THREAD and post something relevant son.

 

[Bornubus]

Calling me Retard(i think that's what you were trying to spell) or Bitch, doesn't alleviate the fact that you can't show any proof of THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT BEING "OUTRAGED" AT THE MANUFACTURING OF THE J11B. That pravda article is from 2008, where is the lawsuit? Where is the diplomatic protest? Its been almost a decade...

All you've posted is Russian media articles with no quotes from Sukhoi, Rosoboronexport or Russian government officials.

Again. STOP TROLLING THIS THREAD and post something relevant son.

Sorry @mods if i made fun of this Mentally challenged Chinese @J20! Inferior 50 cent Gutter troll.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Guys, stop posting bikes, keep it limited to military stuff. @Kunal Biswas Thread needs the moderation!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This thread is not for personal chatter or introduction thread, As of now one member is banned due to this..

This is a technical thread, Keep discussion positive and without abuse or flame-baits ..

 

[SexyChineseLady]

It is pretty obvious that the Russians are okay with the J-11B since they are still supplying engines to the JF-17.

 

[J20!]

Some #TBT pics from Henri K. on EastPendulum:

The framework document co-authored by the former chief engineer of the 611 Chengdu Institute, SONG Wen Cong:

The model of the proposal of the 611 Chengdu Institute in 2005, from the one that became the J-20 of today:

The ceremony after the first flight of the first technological demonstration of Project 718:

The first technological demonstrator, registered 2001:

The last J20 prototype 2017:

The first J-20 series that was delivered to the Chinese Air Force. It bears the official registration number 78271:

Link to Henri K's article translate to English if French is a non-starter for you:

http://www.eastpendulum.com/avion-de-combat-j-20-est-entre-en-service

 

[TPFscopes]

Please claim that these machines are still stealthy.
One can see them even without Binoculars

 

[TPFscopes]

Indian Tejas is fine to shoot these mighty birds