Indian Army Artillery

[mavles ihctep]

At least 645 M777s will be inducted by the IA

Stop your fantasy bro,no way we r going to buy 645 m777s.
You claimed 200 rafales will come.
We all know how rafale deal ended.

 

[Guest]

Bharat 52 and Dhanush 52 are both dropped in favor of ATAGS ..

Doesn't ATAGS include elements from both? I assume that a lot of inputs from Bharat 52 would have flowed into ATAGS with Kalyani getting involved.

only Kalyani version of ATAGS has autoloader I believe

ATAGS has been designed from start to fire Nuclear shells- Which no other artillery gen on offer can do- i.e. Bharat 52, Dhanush 45/52, FH77 Bofors, M777 etc-

ATAGS Both TATA and Bharat Forge version have auto loading- While TATA is using traditional mechanism of Bofors guns, Bharat Forge is using magazine system of Elta- In burst mode both guns fire 3 rounds-

ATAGS is a major strategic system to be made by private partners after ATV-

IMO now the research should be focused on how to develop a liquid cooled barrel and develop loading mechanism for a SPH version of this gun-

 

[abingdonboy]

Stop your fantasy bro,no way we r going to buy 645 m777s.
You claimed 200 rafales will come.
We all know how rafale deal ended.

Both will prove to be correct, wait and watch.

 

[AnantS]

ATAGS has been designed from start to fire Nuclear shells- Which no other artillery gen on offer can do- i.e. Bharat 52, Dhanush 45/52, FH77 Bofors, M777 etc-

ATAGS Both TATA and Bharat Forge version have auto loading- While TATA is using traditional mechanism of Bofors guns, Bharat Forge is using magazine system of Elta- In burst mode both guns fire 3 rounds-

ATAGS is a major strategic system to be made by private partners after ATV-

IMO now the research should be focused on how to develop a liquid cooled barrel and develop loading mechanism for a SPH version of this gun-

Any source for above underlined info ?

 

[sthf]

Any source for above underlined info ?

I have one but it's Ajai Shukla. So take it as you may.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/12/indian-artillery-gun-shines-in-trials.html?m=1

Burst fire is 6 rounds not 3. Perfect for shoot and scoot.

 

[AnantS]

I have one but it's Ajai Shukla. So take it as you may.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/12/indian-artillery-gun-shines-in-trials.html?m=1

Burst fire is 6 rounds not 3. Perfect for shoot and scoot.

Thanks @sthf . The report does mention 6 round automated magazine(Kalyani version clearly has a mechanism). However I am curious about Tata version, ie what mechanism they have employed. Also no nuclear role has been mentioned in the report

 

[sthf]

Thanks @sthf . The report does mention 6 round automated magazine(Kalyani version clearly has a mechanism). However I am curious about Tata version, ie what mechanism they have employed. Also no nuclear role has been mentioned in the report

Tata doesn't have one. Kalyani borrowed the mechanism from Elbit, Tata probably didn't have the luxury.

For nuclear artillery, look up "Indian Defence Analysis : Artillery", Lok Sabha TV.

 

[sthf]

Double post.......................................

 

[Vijyes]

Both will prove to be correct, wait and watch.

The rationale behind Rafale is that France is giving assistance in completing Kaveri engine from 78-81kN thrust to 90-95kN thrust. So, buying Rafale is only as a payment for French assistance. What assistance did USA give for us to buy M777 in such large numbers? The way I see it is that Dhanush or any other ATAGS can also be moved with sufficient infrastructure and road constructions. Why would anyone order 500 more M777 howitzers, that too at the cost of 2.5 billion? M777 has a lower range of 30km compared to dhanush or its ATAGS variant- with 42 km.

 

[indiatester]

The rationale behind Rafale is that France is giving assistance in completing Kaveri engine from 78-81kN thrust to 90-95kN thrust. So, buying Rafale is only as a payment for French assistance. What assistance did USA give for us to buy M777 in such large numbers? The way I see it is that Dhanush or any other ATAGS can also be moved with sufficient infrastructure and road constructions. Why would anyone order 500 more M777 howitzers, that too at the cost of 2.5 billion? M777 has a lower range of 30km compared to dhanush or its ATAGS variant- with 42 km.

Well you can easily transport it. That should allow you to deploy them far more quickly compared to the other options.

 

[Vijyes]

Well you can easily transport it. That should allow you to deploy them far more quickly compared to the other options.

Even other type of artillery can be transported by disassembling. It will require 3 IMRH helicopters, 2 chinook helicopters or combination of helicopters and transport aircrafts like C130j to take dhanush. Artillery transportation is not something one does all the time. Once you transport an artillery, you keep it there or move it slightly with manual force or some other motor vehicle. So, it is better to make many IMRH helicopters than to simply buy imported M777. Helicopters can be used for multiple purpose and are more useful than just artillery. Hence money should go to helicopters and indian artillery in preference over artillery imports. It is also more prudent to simply construct roads so as to transport these howitzers by attaching it to a truck and pulling it to as close a location as possible to key areas and then airlifted in disassembled manner for few kilometres saving time

 

[SanjeevM]

Even other type of artillery can be transported by disassembling. It will require 3 IMRH helicopters, 2 chinook helicopters or combination of helicopters and transport aircrafts like C130j to take dhanush. Artillery transportation is not something one does all the time. Once you transport an artillery, you keep it there or move it slightly with manual force or some other motor vehicle. So, it is better to make many IMRH helicopters than to simply buy imported M777. Helicopters can be used for multiple purpose and are more useful than just artillery. Hence money should go to helicopters and indian artillery in preference over artillery imports. It is also more prudent to simply construct roads so as to transport these howitzers by attaching it to a truck and pulling it to as close a location as possible to key areas and then airlifted in disassembled manner for few kilometres saving time

Very good points raised here. We should be investing in more IMRH. Also in case of emergency of moving the artillery closer to China borders, we already have contracted for sufficient M777. In the first wave, we can move them. If we need more, we can move Dhanush guns in a second wave.

We should also fast track road construction leading to China borders in north east and Ares bordering Tibet.

But then the question is, did we study, how long is our boarders stretches with Chinese that are not accessible by roads? Or in next 2 years also we can't have roads on those stretches? Will the M777 already contracted sufficient in numbers to cover those stretches in case we can't build roads in next 2 years?

 

[Vijyes]

Very good points raised here. We should be investing in more IMRH. Also in case of emergency of moving the artillery closer to China borders, we already have contracted for sufficient M777. In the first wave, we can move them. If we need more, we can move Dhanush guns in a second wave.

We should also fast track road construction leading to China borders in north east and Ares bordering Tibet.

But then the question is, did we study, how long is our boarders stretches with Chinese that are not accessible by roads? Or in next 2 years also we can't have roads on those stretches? Will the M777 already contracted sufficient in numbers to cover those stretches in case we can't build roads in next 2 years?

There is no exact time limit of 2 years. Rest assured, the next war will be world war 3 and it will not be till 2030. For now, focus on longer term solution and not be short sighted. One should be ready everyday but that does not mean invest all your energy today and have nothing tomorrow. The first strike in case of open war will be missile strikes and not artillery.

The roads have begun to be completed and in 2 years 23 out of 95 roads were completed. With roads opening up, additional roads will be faster to make and by 2019, 70 roads are expected to be completed with remaining 25 left to be completed by 2020-21. Road connectivity can't be 100% in hilly areas but there helicopter lifting can be done. HTSE turboshaft is set to be completed by 2021 and IMRH may get ready by 2025

 

[indiatester]

Even other type of artillery can be transported by disassembling. It will require 3 IMRH helicopters, 2 chinook helicopters or combination of helicopters and transport aircrafts like C130j to take dhanush. Artillery transportation is not something one does all the time. Once you transport an artillery, you keep it there or move it slightly with manual force or some other motor vehicle. So, it is better to make many IMRH helicopters than to simply buy imported M777. Helicopters can be used for multiple purpose and are more useful than just artillery. Hence money should go to helicopters and indian artillery in preference over artillery imports. It is also more prudent to simply construct roads so as to transport these howitzers by attaching it to a truck and pulling it to as close a location as possible to key areas and then airlifted in disassembled manner for few kilometres saving time

Fair enough.
I do disagree that artillery is not moved. In this age of gun locating radars and constant surveillance, especially against the enemy to east, firepower and mobility will be key. This is where M777 scores.
But like you said, that money would be better spent with developing similar Indian artillery than with US one.

 

[mayfair]

Of course, there's a need for mobile artillery and rocket launchers and SPH and MGS form an important element in this strategy. But there's only as much you can do about Towed guns like FH77, Dhanush and M777 if the aim is to fire and scoot to avoid triangulation by enemy WLRs and incoming fire.

I mean how far and how fast can they move on their own power and it's not really practical to use helis and trucks to tow away each and every gun to evade enemy fire- how so ever light it may be.

These guns will have to stay a little behind the frontlines and launch a massive salvo on enemy lines to suppress enough enemy systems, while the mobile artillery (Vajra and the planned MGS) and MBRLs follow/accompany the tanks and the BMPs as they surge ahead.

Again, I am no expert, so any explanation of IA's artillery doctrine would be most welcome.

 

[devlex]

Fair enough.
I do disagree that artillery is not moved. In this age of gun locating radars and constant surveillance, especially against the enemy to east, firepower and mobility will be key. This is where M777 scores.
But like you said, that money would be better spent with developing similar Indian artillery than with US one.

M777 is not self propelled , where as Dhanush and its variants is , and can be moved from one place to another at great ease thus ditching enemy gun locating radars. M777 will be deployed at strategic places where no present Indian artillery can be positioned and may be flown in to during emergency situations.

 

[Adioz]

M777 is not self propelled , where as Dhanush and its variants is , and can be moved from one place to another at great ease thus ditching enemy gun locating radars. M777 will be deployed at strategic places where no present Indian artillery can be positioned and may be flown in to during emergency situations.

Dhanush is not "Self propelled". It has an APU that allows it to move, but at impractical speeds on a flat surface. It is not for covering long distances. Its for use after the guns are on site. AFAIK, M777 has been deployed as the sole tube artillery for the 17 Mountain Strike Corps. I do not think that they are going to be used at only those places where towed Arty cannot be deployed. It will be used at all locations the Corps requires them. Sometimes it might be beneficial to transport them using helicopters or deploy them at inaccessible locations, but it would not be standard procedure.

Dhanush cannot meet that requirement. The only way forward, is to have our own in-house Ultra-Light Howitzer.

 

[indiatester]

M777 is not self propelled , where as Dhanush and its variants is , and can be moved from one place to another at great ease thus ditching enemy gun locating radars. M777 will be deployed at strategic places where no present Indian artillery can be positioned and may be flown in to during emergency situations.

It does not mean that once installed M777 will stay there. They will be taken to where fire power is required. If the forces capture some new ridge, and it needs to be defended, then its easier with light guns first.

Edit:
@Adioz explained it better

 

[Bornubus]

Stop your fantasy bro,no way we r going to buy 645 m777s.
You claimed 200 rafales will come.
We all know how rafale deal ended.

Notice that for a long his prediction usually begins with 200 ~ + even though the final procurement is not more than 40


That too in many years.

 

[Adioz]

Of course, there's a need for mobile artillery and rocket launchers and SPH and MGS form an important element in this strategy. But there's only as much you can do about Towed guns like FH77, Dhanush and M777 if the aim is to fire and scoot to avoid triangulation by enemy WLRs and incoming fire.

I mean how far and how fast can they move on their own power and it's not really practical to use helis and trucks to tow away each and every gun to evade enemy fire- how so ever light it may be.

These guns will have to stay a little behind the frontlines and launch a massive salvo on enemy lines to suppress enough enemy systems, while the mobile artillery (Vajra and the planned MGS) and MBRLs follow/accompany the tanks and the BMPs as they surge ahead.

Again, I am no expert, so any explanation of IA's artillery doctrine would be most welcome.

AFAIK, the arty is deployed out of range of enemy counter-battery fire (when possible) when deployed for fire-missions to support forward troops. However, when the guns have to deployed in a counter-battery role or when they are in the range and sights of enemy counter-battery units, the SOP is shoot-and-scoot (even in the era of Weapon Locating Radar). This can be done by a gun battery within minutes if it has been carried by road transport. However, for the missions where helicopters are used to carry the M-777 to otherwise inaccessible locations, shoot-and-scoot is not a favourable option due to the fact that vital aviation assets of the Corps are tied down as they are on standby for the entire mission. IMHO, the time to scoot after detection is much less for road transported guns than for helicopter transported ones.