India to select one or more fighter aircraft to be built by private sector

[Tactical Frog]

Tell me guys 1 thing, what will IAF do if 36 Rafales become obsolete? They will be in the next decade!

Every jet likely to be obsolete without UCAV escort by 2040

 

[salute]

circus ???
its already a f***ing circus,

make india f16, then f18 ,then rafale , then gripen or buy mig 35 or sukhoi 35,

no jhanjhat would be buy more sukhoi 30 mki until they built lca mk.2 and most importantly amca and fgfa,

but then built lca mk.2 and most importantly amca and fgfa like the iaf's a$$ bet on it,

and if israelis or japanese or any others wants to be partners at it then the more the merrier,

if sukhoi would be over kill for pakis then so be it,it half the price of rafale,

but when war with china hmmmm....,

but then again rafale is too expensive.

 

[vishwaprasad]

circus ???
its already a f***ing circus,

make india f16, then f18 ,then rafale , then gripen or buy mig 35 or sukhoi 35,

no jhanjhat would be buy more sukhoi 30 mki until they built lca mk.2 and most importantly amca and fgfa,

but then built lca mk.2 and most importantly amca and fgfa like the iaf's a$$ bet on it,

and if israelis or japanese or any others wants to be partners at it then the more the merrier,

if sukhoi would be over kill for pakis then so be it,it half the price of rafale,

but when war with china hmmmm....,

but then again rafale is too expensive.

Yes sadly its already a circus.... look at the date when we announced 126 MRCA and today in 2016 we are yet to sign the deal for 36 Rafales.... we have become a laughing stuff in front of the whole world....

As for Rafale or Sukhoi then sorry Sukhoi is not a solution to all problems... we need those darn Rafales even if its expensive.... IAF who is flying those Flankers since decades knows this and that was the reason need of MRCA was marked....

Funny that everybody here just believes that they can teach IAF about how to use Flankers in a half price without having to go for Rafales....

 

[nitish.sarangi]

SEAD/DEAD these days depends on EW suite and Missiles, Su-30 MKI already has EW suite which can be screwd on the pylons. The days when a plane flew very low to avoid the radar and then bomb the radar are 4 decades old. Now some countries like USA use a dedicated EW planes like EF-18 Growler to conduct such missions but other countries like Israel have managed to see the solution in different way by designing an EW pod that is able to conduct the missions. As I understand, few of the Su-30 MKI squadrons in IAF have 4 planes sporting this Israel made pod to perform SEAD/DEAD missions.
Would it not be stupid for a big force like IAF to depend on one plane to bring in this capability? like "we shall wait for Rafale and have that capability"" unfortunately for the French, India already has this capability long time back. As I told this forum, there is not a single role that Rafale can do, that Su-30MKI cannot do, rather Su-30 MKI can better it because of its ability to carry more internal fuel and hence allowing all its pylons for using weapons, where as the French planes have to sacrifice the war load for more fuel, Specially for deep strike roles Rafale will have to sacrifice its warload for more fuel on its external fuel tanks where as Su-30 MKI can perform the same role with its internal fuel load and hence deliver its total load of 8.5 tons of warload

I totally understand IAF already posses SEAD capability and its not waiting for rafales to get that capability. But IAF achieves it tactically more than technologically as most aircraft in our inventory do not have integrated self protection suite like Thales Spectra in Rafale. Technology adds definite edge to our capabilities against our adversaries. No doubt sukhois are more than capable of all missions that rafale can do but certain niche technologies that rafale brings would let IAF have more decisive options. With Pak having block 52s and China's expanding 5th gen capabilities, we would need that edge. That being said, if you are questioning "can IAF do without the Rafales?" In my opinion, it very well can but rafales let it expand its options. IAF would do the best it can with whatever equipment it has.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale scrapping depends entirely on Dassault, if they play ball and drop the price of the 36 fighters to around 7-8 billion including weapons, offsets etc. then it will go through and if they play their cards right they can have 'Make in India' for these but chances are not that good as the cost of the Rafale over life-time is well over 220 million not including a Mid Life Upgrade which looking at Mirage deal can be as high as 60 million per bird. If IAF/MOD come to their senses, they will cancel this deal.

40 more MKI are coming, 100 Tejas are coming. If the Rafale deal is cancelled then the only aircraft that makes sense for 'Make in India' is the Super Hornet International which offers a lot of off the shelf goodies, engine commonality with LCA MK-2, 'reasonable' life cycle costs, its a jack of all trades and with USN operating it for another 25 years, a good enough bet. Buying from the US doesn't mean we need to sign CISMOA. That agreement is currently being re-drafted, hopefully the next version is better. Not signing it has no effect except the fighters would then have Indian home made IFFs, Data links, Comms, etc. which is good anyways.

PAKFA 'Make in India' will happen at a later stage (we may acquire around 60 off the shelf and the rest made in India post 2020 after the MKI production ceases at Nasik.

SH18 is an anemic fighter. One sole international Customer : Australia. Why? only because it has long legs and is american.
And with an amerian product, there always is a damocles sword on your head. You are never totally the owner .... They can stop support at each time. See UAE with F16 bk60 ....

 

[BON PLAN]

boeing ( manufacturer of f 18 ) flexes muscle over dassault ( manufacturer of rafale )---says it is a 97 billion dollar company while dassault is only 5 billion dollar worth

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/boei...-remember-were-97-billion-dollars-big-1278042

And? Size doesn't matter. Dassault sell fighters and business jet all around the word yet.

 

[BON PLAN]

The frecnh pimps at Dassault are liars, the whole costing of MRCA was incorrect, they weren't L-1, they had a lot of hidden costs and in the end the cost escalation was well over 60%. Eurofighter might actually be cheaper than the Rafale but no need to find out, it's still quite an expensive bird. If the Rafale deal is cancelled we can expect to see Super Hornet International coming in fast.

And 5 years after, Indian PM need officially 36..... RAFALE ?
You have absolutely no source to prove what you write. If you don(t like Rafale, it's your problem, but don't say wrong news.

 

[sorcerer]

I dont understand the play here!
So where does this next fighter aircraft come in??
kindly illuminate.

china + pakistan is trying to get into the "affordable" fighter jets for a large market.
May be USA with its Make in India offers want to use INDIAN resources and expertise to offset this by reducing manufacturing cost and make it "affordable" for some developing nations,.

 

[Bahamut]

Rafale is good if we get full ToT,I do not mind paying a bot extra but it to costly,I say make about 200 Mig 35 ,it is a agile plane with good sensors, plus full ToT and at fully away cost of $40 million is a steal.

 

[Bahamut]

Yes sadly its already a circus.... look at the date when we announced 126 MRCA and today in 2016 we are yet to sign the deal for 36 Rafales.... we have become a laughing stuff in front of the whole world....

As for Rafale or Sukhoi then sorry Sukhoi is not a solution to all problems... we need those darn Rafales even if its expensive.... IAF who is flying those Flankers since decades knows this and that was the reason need of MRCA was marked....

Funny that everybody here just believes that they can teach IAF about how to use Flankers in a half price without having to go for Rafales....

Well IAF has a good plane but I think that Su 30 force in IAF is way to much overused ,everything in IAF is Su 30 .Rafale are needed,it too expence so take about 60 of them and then make 200 Mig 35 and for good sake retire Mig 27,Mirage 2000 and Mig 29 .They are end of their life.

 

[BON PLAN]

Tell me guys 1 thing, what will IAF do if 36 Rafales become obsolete? They will be in the next decade!

Absolutely not. If F16 remain now a potent aircraft, Rafale, stealthier, but AESA radar and in 1à years conformal radars, with unparalleled Spectra remain potent for 30 years. France 2° leg deterrence depend on Rafale, so we invest in it largely.

 

[BON PLAN]

SEAD/DEAD these days depends on EW suite and Missiles, Su-30 MKI already has EW suite which can be screwd on the pylons. The days when a plane flew very low to avoid the radar and then bomb the radar are 4 decades old. Now some countries like USA use a dedicated EW planes like EF-18 Growler to conduct such missions but other countries like Israel have managed to see the solution in different way by designing an EW pod that is able to conduct the missions. As I understand, few of the Su-30 MKI squadrons in IAF have 4 planes sporting this Israel made pod to perform SEAD/DEAD missions.
Would it not be stupid for a big force like IAF to depend on one plane to bring in this capability? like "we shall wait for Rafale and have that capability"" unfortunately for the French, India already has this capability long time back. As I told this forum, there is not a single role that Rafale can do, that Su-30MKI cannot do, rather Su-30 MKI can better it because of its ability to carry more internal fuel and hence allowing all its pylons for using weapons, where as the French planes have to sacrifice the war load for more fuel, Specially for deep strike roles Rafale will have to sacrifice its warload for more fuel on its external fuel tanks where as Su-30 MKI can perform the same role with its internal fuel load and hence deliver its total load of 8.5 tons of warload

How do you think we perform from noth eastrern french air base a deep strike in Lybia or Mali with 6 laser guided bomb or 2 x cruise missile ? Rafale has 11 store points. 5 are fuel ready.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Gripen = Zero chances since it's smaller and have almost same config as LCA.

F-16 = No, since Pakistan has already mastered its capabilities and weaknesses, will be a suicidal mission for IAF.

F-18 = May be Yes, since it can be used on IAF and Navy too, and it has a very good set of avionics.

Typhoon = too costly.

MIG-35 = perhaps no, since it's an old aircraft and MIG wont be able to deliver it at the speed we need.

So my bet is on F-18, BTW this step by MoD can force Dasaault to lower Rafael's price.

But after buying f18 what will be the need for rafales ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Absolutely not. If F16 remain now a potent aircraft, Rafale, stealthier, but AESA radar and in 1à years conformal radars, with unparalleled Spectra remain potent for 30 years. France 2° leg deterrence depend on Rafale, so we invest in it largely.

Whatever rafale will develop in future will be part of costly upgrade for India on top of exorbitant capital buy costs to begin with

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

How do you think we perform from noth eastrern french air base a deep strike in Lybia or Mali with 6 laser guided bomb or 2 x cruise missile ? Rafale has 11 store points. 5 are fuel ready.

Bombing terrorists with no credible opposition - is it an achievement ?

 

[garg_bharat]

I think Gripen is a better offer. It will come with a better transfer of tech.

I think bulk of IAF's requirement will remain small single engine fighters which are cheaper to operate.

Gripen will not kill LCA Tejas as is feared. LCA Tejas will continue to be built. There are still many challenges in the Tejas path as productionization pace is very slow. A more mature fighter like Gripen will help to stabilize local fighter production.

 

[garg_bharat]

I think a Gripen line complimenting LCA Tejas line will ramp up small fighter production to beyond 20 per year.

Su-30 line is now producing 15 planes per year. Hope is this line will convert to FGFA in future.

2 squadrons per year can meet IAF's requirements. Rafale purchase will become a stop gap until FGFA starts arriving (if it happens). If Rafale does not come, additional Su-30 will be bought.

 

[salute]

del................................................................................................

 

[salute]

I think Gripen is a better offer. It will come with a better transfer of tech.

I think bulk of IAF's requirement will remain small single engine fighters which are cheaper to operate.

Gripen will not kill LCA Tejas as is feared. LCA Tejas will continue to be built. There are still many challenges in the Tejas path as productionization pace is very slow. A more mature fighter like Gripen will help to stabilize local fighter production.

what are the advantages gripen got over lca ???

 

[garg_bharat]

There no need to compare LCA Tejas with Gripen. Such comparisons are absolutely meaningless today, as IAF has like one LCA Tejas, which still has not completed its development phase.

In comparison 200+ Gripen are operated by multiple air forces.

Theoretical comparisons in the absence of real operational experience are specialty of message boards, but do not help in real world.