Hindustan Trainer HTT-40

WMD

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An eagle in borrowed feathers

There have been strong public reactions to revelations in this newspaper last week about the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) advocacy of the import of a Swiss basic trainer aircraft, the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. In 2009, the IAF lowered at least 12 important performance requirements, handing Pilatus a contract worth Swiss Franc 557 million (Rs 3,606 crore) for 75 trainers. And early last month, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, the IAF chief, wrote personally to Defence Minister A K Antony recommending that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) be ordered to halt the indigenous design and manufacture of 106 basic trainer aircraft, and the Swiss company be asked for 106 more PC-7 trainers worth at least Swiss Franc 645 million (Rs 4,226 crore) at current prices.

Sadly, most responses missed the real issue, either castigating the IAF for corruption, or insisting that the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II is an excellent choice for the IAF. The correct decision can also be a corrupt one, as the Bofors scam reminds us. But the big question is: with both the IAF and HAL crucial for Indian military aerospace, how can a working relationship be forged?

The IAF believes HAL is incompetent, has a poor work ethic and cannot design and build a basic trainer, a relatively simple aerospace task. The IAF allows HAL to build, maintain and overhaul its frontline combat fleet, but alleges – with some justification – that HAL merely knocks together Russian kits and delivers aircraft with dangerous deficiencies. But the IAF also accepts, albeit tacitly, that HAL has areas of genuine excellence – having played an important role in developing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which it will mass produce; having designed the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), in service with the army and air force; and having undertaken the challenging development of a Light Combat Helicopter (LCH).

HAL's view of the IAF is as problematic. While accepting the air force's technical competence, there is growing derision at the IAF's preference for imports. Even mid-level HAL engineers talk about air marshals who benefit from cosy relationships with foreign vendors.

This chasm must be bridged. Air Headquarters must engage HAL across the board and, as the user and senior partner, take ownership of projects like the HTT-40 and the LCA, and drive them to a successful conclusion. This will involve putting officers on the shop floor and (horror of horrors!) getting grease on those fighter pilot kid gloves.

Frustrated IAF officers have deluded themselves into believing that placing an air marshal, serving or retired, at the head of HAL will magically transform that company. That conclusion stems from the navy's successful indigenisation programme, in which Indian shipyards are building 46 warships of the 47 under construction. All three major defence shipyards – Mazagaon Dock Ltd, Mumbai; Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata; and Goa Shipyard Ltd – are headed by retired admirals.

But the IAF is missing the wood for the trees. The navy's indigenisation programme starts with a consensus that buying foreign-built warships undermines budgets and capabilities. Given this co-operative ethos, it is unsurprising that defence shipyards tend to be headed by retired admirals.

When the navy wants a new class of warships, it begins by selecting an Indian shipyard to build it; the directorate of naval design creates a conceptual design and works with the shipyard to translate that into a detailed design; the directorate of indigenisation co-ordinates with industry to ensure that as many systems as possible are sourced from India; the navy allocates the budget and the shipyard rolls out the warships. Indigenous warships are often late and there are occasional quality issues. But the navy gets its home-designed warship at less than the global price. And each time a spare part is used, each time a refit or upgrade is carried out, more money is saved. Over its service life of three decades, the cost of an Indian warship comes to less than a quarter of one bought abroad.

This would be equally true of indigenous aircraft, but the IAF – devoid of any ethos of indigenisation, and with no structures to promote it – looks abroad at the first instance. When HAL-built HPT-32 trainers began crashing due to a flawed fuel system, the deaths of 19 pilots in 17 crashes over two decades took the IAF to Pilatus for a foreign replacement. But there is no comparable urgency in replacing MiG fighters, where the figures over the last four decades are truly devastating – of 872 MiGs in the IAF, 482 have crashed, killing 171 IAF pilots, 39 civilians and eight people from other services, according to figures tabled in Parliament.

Why has the IAF not grounded and replaced these dangerous and outdated aircraft, like it did with the HPT-32? The answer, say sceptics, is that the primary replacement for the MiG-series fighters is the indigenous Tejas fighter. Even though it is utterly safe (no Tejas has ever crashed, fingers crossed), there is no "incentive" to quickly buy the Tejas in large numbers.

It is time for Mr Antony to call in the air chief and bluntly say that the days of importing fancy fighters for lakhs of crores of rupees are over. Vapid banalities like "We will provide our brave jawans with the best equipment in the world" encourage IAF buying sprees like the Rafale and the Pilatus. The day Mr Antony musters the political courage to tell the IAF and the army that – like the navy – they will fight with whatever equipment they build, India will have taken its first step towards becoming a military power, with a functional defence industrial base.

An eagle in borrowed feathers | Business Standard
 

p2prada

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Do you have a source for 70% mark of LCA?
No, I don't have a source. Normally I don't keep internet sources on me all the time. I only save very specific content or information that I cannot easily commit to memory. In this case the relevance of the information, it is irrelevant info.

If I come across a quote I will post it. And it is very rare for me to stumble across the same source again.

What kind of environment ? How is it different from the environment that other IAF aircrafts fly in ?
To add to what Twinblade said, low altitude flying involves a lot of stress on the aircraft, so there is more pressure on the maintenance crew. If something goes wrong, the pilot is at the receiving end.
 

ersakthivel

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So one crash every year for the 20 years of service of HPT-32 is the reason for the grounding of the trainer ,"with irresolvable!!! fuel line problem!", by the same yardstick most of the IAf fleet should have been retired by now.
 

Kunal Biswas

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by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 6th Aug 13


There have been strong public reactions to revelations in this newspaper last week about the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) advocacy of the import of a Swiss basic trainer aircraft, the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. In 2009, the IAF lowered at least 12 important performance requirements, handing Pilatus a contract worth Swiss Franc 557 million (Rs 3,606 crore) for 75 trainers. And early last month, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne, the IAF chief, wrote personally to Defence Minister A K Antony recommending that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) be ordered to halt the indigenous design and manufacture of 106 basic trainer aircraft, and the Swiss company be asked for 106 more PC-7 trainers worth at least Swiss Franc 645 million (Rs 4,226 crore) at current prices."¨"¨

Sadly, most responses missed the real issue, either castigating the IAF for corruption, or insisting that the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II is an excellent choice for the IAF. The correct decision can also be a corrupt one, as the Bofors scam reminds us. But the big question is: with both the IAF and HAL crucial for Indian military aerospace, how can a working relationship be forged?"¨"¨

The IAF believes HAL is incompetent, has a poor work ethic and cannot design and build a basic trainer, a relatively simple aerospace task. The IAF allows HAL to build, maintain and overhaul its frontline combat fleet, but alleges - with some justification - that HAL merely knocks together Russian kits and delivers aircraft with dangerous deficiencies. But the IAF also accepts, albeit tacitly, that HAL has areas of genuine excellence - having played an important role in developing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which it will mass produce; having designed the Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), in service with the army and air force; and having undertaken the challenging development of a Light Combat Helicopter (LCH).

"¨"¨HAL's view of the IAF is as problematic. While accepting the air force's technical competence, there is growing derision at the IAF's preference for imports. Even mid-level HAL engineers talk about air marshals who benefit from cosy relationships with foreign vendors."¨"¨

This chasm must be bridged. Air Headquarters must engage HAL across the board and, as the user and senior partner, take ownership of projects like the HTT-40 and the LCA, and drive them to a successful conclusion. This will involve putting officers on the shop floor and (horror of horrors!) getting grease on those fighter pilot kid gloves.

"¨"¨Frustrated IAF officers have deluded themselves into believing that placing an air marshal, serving or retired, at the head of HAL will magically transform that company. That conclusion stems from the navy's successful indigenisation programme, in which Indian shipyards are building 46 warships of the 47 under construction. All three major defence shipyards - Mazagaon Dock Ltd, Mumbai; Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers, Kolkata; and Goa Shipyard Ltd - are headed by retired admirals."¨"¨

But the IAF is missing the wood for the trees. The navy's indigenisation programme starts with a consensus that buying foreign-built warships undermines budgets and capabilities. Given this co-operative ethos, it is unsurprising that defence shipyards tend to be headed by retired admirals.

"¨"¨When the navy wants a new class of warships, it begins by selecting an Indian shipyard to build it; the directorate of naval design creates a conceptual design and works with the shipyard to translate that into a detailed design; the directorate of indigenisation co-ordinates with industry to ensure that as many systems as possible are sourced from India; the navy allocates the budget and the shipyard rolls out the warships. Indigenous warships are often late and there are occasional quality issues. But the navy gets its home-designed warship at less than the global price. And each time a spare part is used, each time a refit or upgrade is carried out, more money is saved. Over its service life of three decades, the cost of an Indian warship comes to less than a quarter of one bought abroad."¨"¨

This would be equally true of indigenous aircraft, but the IAF - devoid of any ethos of indigenisation, and with no structures to promote it - looks abroad at the first instance. When HAL-built HPT-32 trainers began crashing due to a flawed fuel system, the deaths of 19 pilots in 17 crashes over two decades took the IAF to Pilatus for a foreign replacement. But there is no comparable urgency in replacing MiG fighters, where the figures over the last four decades are truly devastating - of 872 MiGs in the IAF, 482 have crashed, killing 171 IAF pilots, 39 civilians and eight people from other services, according to figures tabled in Parliament.

"¨"¨Why has the IAF not grounded and replaced these dangerous and outdated aircraft, like it did with the HPT-32? The answer, say sceptics, is that the primary replacement for the MiG-series fighters is the indigenous Tejas fighter. Even though it is utterly safe (no Tejas has ever crashed, fingers crossed), there is no "incentive" to quickly buy the Tejas in large numbers.

"¨"¨It is time for Mr Antony to call in the air chief and bluntly say that the days of importing fancy fighters for lakhs of crores of rupees are over. Vapid banalities like "We will provide our brave jawans with the best equipment in the world" encourage IAF buying sprees like the Rafale and the Pilatus. The day Mr Antony musters the political courage to tell the IAF and the army that - like the navy - they will fight with whatever equipment they build, India will have taken its first step towards becoming a military power, with a functional defence industrial base.

Source : Broadsword: An eagle in borrowed feathers
 

Kunal Biswas

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It's been a rough couple of weeks for HAL. Then again, they deserve a kick in the rear every now and then. Their well-known scrap with the IAF chief apart, the company is depending on the MoD, its parent government ministry, to ensure that its trainer programme doesn't go to waste. Sure enough, the development programme powers on with the supreme confidence of one that has assured orders at the end. And hopefully it will.

Rest in the Source : http://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/08/scrap-with-iaf-aside-hal-trainer.html
 

bose

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HAL has not been able to earn IAF trust and that is the main issue here, otherwise IAF could have made some adjustments here and there... HAL must follow the GOLDEN rule of "Under promise and over deliver"...
 

Decklander

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HAL has not been able to earn IAF trust and that is the main issue here, otherwise IAF could have made some adjustments here and there... HAL must follow the GOLDEN rule of "Under promise and over deliver"...
You can earn the trust of only those who want to believe in you, how can you win the trust of a person who is sold out to foreigners for want of bribes.
 

bose

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You can earn the trust of only those who want to believe in you, how can you win the trust of a person who is sold out to foreigners for want of bribes.
Yes the bribes are a biggest problems we face, BUT still I would argue that if the DRDO / HAL has mamaged the projects properly in a professional manner they would have been in a better position as they find nowdays...
 

Decklander

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Yes the bribes are a biggest problems we face, BUT still I would argue that if the DRDO / HAL has mamaged the projects properly in a professional manner they would have been in a better position as they find nowdays...
Four crucial years were lost begining 2009 when the PSQRs were suddenly changed to suit an existing platform forcing HAL to stop work. Imagine if HAL had continued the work, they wud have also supplied the trainer this year.
 

bose

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Four crucial years were lost begining 2009 when the PSQRs were suddenly changed to suit an existing platform forcing HAL to stop work. Imagine if HAL had continued the work, they wud have also supplied the trainer this year.
I find it very depressing to read your post"¦ not only it would have saved Billions of Dollars apart from the fact the aircraft will be indigenous ... GOD know what is MOD is doing then, especially big mouth Saint Antony.. HAL has a very strong case here I would say...
 

bennedose

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The interesting, and sad, part is that Prof Prodyut Das a controversial aeronautical maverick has written an article in a recent issue of Vayu arguing that there could have been many easily correctable reasons for the HPT 32 engine stoppages which were not even looked at before junking the aircraft I will try and locate the article and post the gist of it.
 

Twinblade

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HAL pushes HTT-40 as light attack platform
By SP's Special Correspondent
Photo Credit : SP's Special Correspondent


August 19, 2013: While the Defence Ministry ponders over the IAF's recommendation that the HTT-40 basic trainer project be foreclosed, HAL is fighting back. At a recent annual general meeting of the Aeronautical Society of India, which includes influential voices from the veteran communities of the IAF and aerospace industry, HAL sought to project the HTT-40 trainer effort as a possible light attack platform.

Deputy Project Manager Prashant Bhadoria informed the audience, "The trainers of today cannot only be deployed for basic training to ab initio pilots but have also undergone systems and weapons upgradation to include functionality of fourth generation fighter aircraft. This enables them to double up as light attack and reconnaissance aircraft. A significant amount of systems training to be provided at the intermediate and advanced phase of training can be covered by the basic trainer itself, leading to enormous reduction of cost and platform fatigue." HAL, incidentally, is also seeking to weaponise the intermediate jet trainer HJT-36 Sitara with gun-pods. The company recently said in a statement, "The matter is before the competent authorities and there are no comments to offer on this subject in particular. HAL continues to whole heartedly support the progress of Indian Air Force and highly values its relationship with IAF."
http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?id=250&h=HAL-pushes-HTT-40-as-light-attack-platform
 

Decklander

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All over the world, the armed forces are trying to find ways to speed up training by using more of simulators and less of actual flight time. This includes using less number of training ac types and compressed syllabus using multi purpose ac.
IAF is the only stupid and idiotic airforce in the world which has four stage training. Pilatus-HJT-36 Sitara-Hawk- Final sqn ac. AND the worst part is that the selection of pilots for Fighters/Transports/helos takes place after the Hawk stage.
This can be easily reduced to two stages based on what IN found. The two stages are, HTT-40 for complete training of nearly 180 hrs which used to be in my time on Kirans only including weapon training to chose the best guys for each stream. The pilots seleceted for Helos and transport stream will join the second stage for those streams on Cheetal or Saras. Hawk training for just those who are selected for Fighters. teaching them complete tactics about every ac of IAF followed by sqn postings. That will reduce the time and effort for training pilots. You may be shocked to know that in early eighties the rift between IAF and IN became so bad that IN had its pilots trained by flying clubs just to tell IAF that they are nothing but bullshit and hot air with lot of force like a fart and IN has no regards for them. The effect was so strong that IAF gave seats for training on demand to IN in AFA. As it had the potential to completely state that whatever IAF was claiming by creating a separate Training command was stupid. AND IN DID GET OVER 100 PILOTS TRAINED FROM FLYING SCHOOLS WHO ROSE TO BECOME ADMIRALS.
 

dealwithit

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HAL pushes HTT-40 as light attack platform

While the Defence Ministry ponders over the IAF's recommendation that the HTT-40 basic trainer project be foreclosed, HAL is fighting back. At a recent annual general meeting of the Aeronautical Society of India, which includes influential voices from the veteran communities of the IAF and aerospace industry, HAL sought to project the HTT-40 trainer effort as a possible light attack platform.

Deputy Project Manager Prashant Bhadoria informed the audience, "The trainers of today cannot only be deployed for basic training to ab initio pilots but have also undergone systems and weapons upgradation to include functionality of fourth generation fighter aircraft. This enables them to double up as light attack and reconnaissance aircraft. A significant amount of systems training to be provided at the intermediate and advanced phase of training can be covered by the basic trainer itself, leading to enormous reduction of cost and platform fatigue." HAL, incidentally, is also seeking to weaponise the intermediate jet trainer HJT-36 Sitara with gun-pods. The company recently said in a statement, "The matter is before the competent authorities and there are no comments to offer on this subject in particular. HAL continues to whole heartedly support the progress of Indian Air Force and highly values its relationship with IAF."

http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?id=250&h=HAL-pushes-HTT-40-as-light-attack-platform
 

dealwithit

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re: HAL pushes HTT-40 as light attack platform

It should be developed something like attack a/c Ex A-10 thunderbolt
 

Kunal Biswas

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re: HAL pushes HTT-40 as light attack platform

This step is towards export of this aircraft, Many countries are looking for cheap CAS platforms ..

It is also possible IA may procure some of these ..
 

dealwithit

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re: HAL pushes HTT-40 as light attack platform

There is no requirement given by IAF ..

They would rather import ..
We should stop importing.. Already our economy is dumb poor...
given Couple of Guns to HTT-40 makes it lethal..attack aircraft...Its not a robotic technology.. it is simple



Not exactly like this.. but modifications should be done modern
 
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