China thinks there is no question of anyone being superior

Discussion in 'China' started by nrj, Mar 1, 2012.

  1. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    A recent event in Delhi witnessed an interesting debate among strategic gurus about whether India could still claim its adherence to the policy of non-alignment. Sheela Bhatt and Priyanka listen in.

    "The strategic objective of China is to become the Middle Kingdom of the region. China thinks there is no question of anyone being superior to it. China wants to become the number one country of the region."

    These comments about our powerful neighbour were made by former National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra, while speaking at a seminar organised by the Centre for Policy Research.

    "China knows that as long as you are embroiled in South Asia, India will not be able to play a larger role in Southeast Asia or in the larger world," said Mishra.

    At the seminar, a first-of-its-kind research document -- Nonalignment 2.0 -- was released in a packed hall in a Delhi hotel, in the presence of a galaxy of strategic gurus of today's India.

    CPR Chief Pratap Bhanu Mehta managed to get together on the same platform National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon as well as two pioneering and former NSAs -- Brajesh Mishra and M K Narayanan.

    Nonalignment 2.0 attempts to provide a comprehensive insight on how India's strategic and foreign policy should evolve in the years ahead. The document is the combined effort of a panel comprising Pratap Bhanu Mehta, Nandan Nilekani, Srinath Raghavan, Luetenant General (retired) Prakash Menon, Rajiv Kumar, Sunil Khilnani, Shyam Saran and Siddharth Vardarajan.

    The authors of Nonalignment have, among many trends, taken note of China's significance and the challenges before India in view of the rise of the communist nation.

    In the chapter titled Asian Theatre, China, Pakistan, South Asia and West Asia has been discussed.

    Significantly, in the chapter titled Hard Power, the authors have even claimed, "Our frontiers with China have been mostly stable for some years now. But China could assert its territorial claims (especially in the Arunachal sector or Ladakh) by the use of force. There is a possibility that China might resort to territorial grabs. The most likely areas for such bite-sized operations are those parts of the Line of Actual Control where both sides have different notions of where the LAC actually runs. These places are known. We cannot also entirely dismiss the possibility of a major military offensive in Arunachal Pradesh or Ladakh. But such an offensive will not come as a bolt from the blue -- there will be some warning in terms of an overall deterioration of diplomatic ties and significant military preparation by the Chinese as long as we have sufficient and reliable surveillance and intelligence capability."

    The paper then goes on to suggest what should be India's reaction. "In either case -- whether China resorts to a limited probe or to a larger offensive -- our aim should be the restoration of status quo ante. But this does not mean that we will have to resort to a purely defensive strategy. Indeed, given the fact that the combat ratio and logistic networks favour China and that the attacker will always have the advantage of tactical (if not strategic) surprise, we will need a mix of defensive and offensive capabilities that can leverage the advantages that the terrain offers."

    Sunil Khilnani, author and thinker, while providing a summary of the papers, said, "Within Asia, China is by some way our most sensitive strategic challenge. Given the asymmetries between our respective capabilities and influence, it will take considerable skill to reconcile our desire to cooperate with the realities of competition."

    While talking about the changing nature of international domain and power equations, Khilnani said, "Power is increasingly diffused and complex in its nature: alongside superpowers like the US and China, the world will contain more hubs and centres of power than ever before."

    Mehta invited a debate and dialogue on the course of India's strategic and foreign policy.

    It happened too soon!

    Just as the paper reached the public domain, NSA Menon, as well as former NSAs Mishra and M K Naraynan, questioned few reasoning in the Nonalignment 2.0 in its understanding and its comments on the strategic and foreign policy issues of the country.

    Mishra unambiguously said that the option of following the policy of non-alignment may not exist anymore if India and US become "strategic partners" on equal terms.

    He said two countries may not be strategic allies but they can become partners. Mishra opined that India should ideally keep Russia by its side and work on becoming a real strategic partner to the US by actively discussing issues and telling explicitly what it can and cannot do.

    "And that is where it ends. Once you join US, there is no non-alignment," he said.

    Mishra's argument was that during the Cold War era, the policy of non-alignment was suitable. He posed a question: 'Can India remain non-aligned between the United States and China?"

    He also pointed out that in the US State Department, there are people who are not favourably disposed towards India and they advocate stronger relations with China.

    In Mishra's experience, he said, in case of America, the decision has to travel from bottom down so that some people (favouring China) in the State Department don't overrule it.

    Speaking in a straightforward tone, Mishra stated explicitly that as the struggle between the US and China to attain the top spot of the most powerful nation in the world intensifies, India through its strategic and foreign policy cannot remain a meek spectator and stick to a policy of non-alignment.

    "US and China are constantly vying to become supreme global powers today," he argued, "And hence the question of non-alignment just does not exist. It is impossible," he said.

    Mishra pointed out that as the Cold War is over, India has been strategically and gradually moving towards the US, in terms of aligning its foreign policies and self-interests with America.

    "India wants to be a constant ally of the US," he said, "And the citizens of India are also likely to agree to it, more or less," he added.

    "But US is a difficult partner simply because it has agendas and things to do in every part of the world. At times, this could directly lead to a conflict of interest like it did with Iran," he said.


    Non-alignment is very difficult today

    Mishra stated that the US has an international agenda while India has a regional one.

    During the tenure of the Atal Bihari Vajpayee-led government, when Mishra was the NSA, Indian soldiers were not sent to fight the war in Iraq or other countries because the prime minister did not want Indian soldiers to fight a battle in a foreign land that was not backed by the consent of people back home.

    Mishra also pointed out the doubtful role US played in supporting Pakistan.

    "The US policy in Pakistan is more or less the same as the policy which China upholds towards Pakistan, even though US is a friend of ours," he said to an amused audience which nodded in confirmation.

    "Non-alignment is very difficult today," he repeated.

    NSA Menon also voiced his disagreements on a couple of points of this report. "At the outset, the report says that we need to develop a consensus on the strategic policy, and I am a little cynical about this point of view because I don't think this is either attainable or desirable," he said matter-of-factly.

    He explained that it is a popular myth that the foreign and strategic policy of India has never faced stiff domestic opposition and we are made to believe that in the golden age of India's foreign policy, everybody was in agreement.

    "Let me correct, there was never such a stage. We have had serious arguments about India's foreign policy right through all the periods of our history," Menon clarified.

    "And as a consequence of such arguments, we have always managed to come up with the good, if not the best, decisions. And that debate is necessary especially in a plural society like ours. We need that debate," he observed.

    "Hence, for me to reach a consensus on strategic policy is certainly not desirable," Menon concluded with a touch of cynicism. He argued that the non-alignment should be used as a strategy, and not as an ideology.

    We tend to overestimate or underestimate the role of China

    Former foreign secretary Shyam Saran talked about observing keenly how US finalises its policy towards China.

    He said, "China is seen to be more amenable when you are seen to have many options."

    Former NSA Narayanan, who is currently the governor of West Bengal, was prepared to argue out his take on the document.

    He said that the impetus of strategic and foreign policies of India has been derived from our history of handling matters of importance in a non-aggressive and passive manner.

    He stated plainly that India has, always, refrained from demonstrating its might openly.

    "I believe that the resurgence in the Asia region has brought about dramatic changes in the power structure here," he explained.

    "The simultaneous rise of India and China in the world stage is today a salient factor in driving strategic efforts and policy in the region. And hence the underlying theme of this document is that we do not have the same luxury of following a passive tone," he said.

    Governor Narayanan said he had expected to see an answer to China's aggressive diplomacy in the research paper.

    "I feel that such a distinguished panel should give us a more detailed insight into what we face from China, because I think we tend to overestimate or underestimate the role of China," he said.

    India should set new standards for what the powerful must do

    On the issue of India's border disputes with China, the document mentions at one point: "The superiority of current Chinese deployments".

    But Narayanan disputed the claim, saying, "We have an advantageous position too." He had a different take on a few aspects of internal security too.

    Earlier, while inaugurating the event, Khilnani had said that India must establish new standards of leadership.

    "India's adherence to values is a source of its legitimacy in the international system -- and that itself is a form of power. As India's global capacities rise, we need to sustain the legitimacy bequeathed by our national movement. Such legitimacy, if squandered, cannot be easily recovered. India should aim at not just at being powerful: It should set new standards for what the powerful must do."

    Mishra also countered the authors of the document on the "values" that they had talked about.

    Mishra pointed out, "The report talks about the values of India. But by seeing what is happening in the Parliament, where are the values of the country? We have no values left."

    'China most strategic challenge; US a difficult partner - Rediff.com News
     
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  3. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I don't like this talk of "non-alignment between the US and China". It makes no sense.

    By 2030, the world will have three massive economies - the US, China and India. India is not going to be small enough to be placed in one camp or the other. I expect a little more self-confidence from our strategic planners! For all practical purposes, within our lifetime, we will see India rise up as one of the "poles" in the world in its own right.
     
    ganesh177 likes this.
  4. sesha_maruthi27

    sesha_maruthi27 Senior Member Senior Member

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    China is too ambitious and are thinking to make gold out of ashes.............
     
  5. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    [​IMG]

    Oh, sorry.

    I thought you said Middle Earth.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2012
  6. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    We want the same status as UK or France enjoy with USA or else it is not worth placeing your loyalty with US, when even a nation like Pakistan can be considered a Ally or a friend of US, then it gets confusing. We want to be sure where we stand and as EQUALS not a lesser partner of NATO.....equality or nothing.
     
  7. SADAKHUSH

    SADAKHUSH Senior Member Senior Member

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    This is good one. May be China will stop dreaming after reading about Middle Earth.
     
  8. panduranghari

    panduranghari Senior Member Senior Member

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    You cannot demand respect. You got to command it. Why should we be interested in pleasing one or the other. We should please ourselves and do things which fit into our needs. Like not comdeming Iran just because USA is asking us to etc etc. Recently we seem to be getting a bit of a backbone.
     
  9. G90

    G90 Regular Member

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    The gap between China and India become wider and wider since 1990s, india may become a south asia brasil, as for anything beyond that? check your human captial and infrenstrure, I would say, tough luck.

    I know Indians like to talk about "will" and tend to prefer to live in the "future" instead of now, but still I dont think india will be even remote to some status as you implied earlier.

    So india will always remain as "the next big thing", as so many indians love to fool themselves with.
     
  10. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Look here you stupid Chinese drone:

    17 years after China opened its economy, i.e. in 1995, no one in the world ever considered China as being a competitor at any level. China was thought to be the "next big thing", but no one took the nation as seriously as they do presently.

    China began to be taken as a serious competitor and a potential rival only from 2005-2006 onwards.

    Today, India is in the same phase as China was at the dawn of the millennium. In the next 6 years, when India becomes the fourth largest economy in the world at around $4.5 trillion, India will be one of the major players.

    No amount of babbling by shit-spewing CCP goons such as yourself can change that.

    Those who don't learn from history and draw patterns and observations from it will be condemned to eat humble pie. Get used to the fact that India is rising, instead of challenging the notion with inane bullshit.
     
  11. G90

    G90 Regular Member

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    Since the birth of PRC, they have been considered as way above India: They show their worth during the 1950s Korea war against the force of UN with massively inferior weaponaries.

    They then support the vietnamese against France and USA, and the americans take China very seriously by then, to the degree they cutted a deal with China on how to fight a war in vietnam.

    I don't think only after 1995 people all of a sudden take China seriously.

    By 1995 China is only a command economy with limited area practisting free market, in this regard, india got a head-start about 40 years.
     
  12. Dovah

    Dovah Untermensch Senior Member

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    Western recognition is all you guys crave. Pathetic really.
     
    aerokan and Mad Indian like this.
  13. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Dude get real.... your economy opened up way before us in 1979... Ours opened up only in 1991, that too not fully opened...

    You got a 12 year lead on us which we are now trying to catch up.... Dont take the crap your CCP feeds you all as such... Do some research on independant bews networks before posting
     
  14. Bangalorean

    Bangalorean Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    You are wrong. India had a much more developed economy, and was a bigger force than China, on the world stage. This was the case till the 1960s. India screwed itself due to quasi-socialist policies. India was not a free market economy before 1991. It took steps towards free market and free enterprise only in 1991.

    China also screwed itself initially, but stopped screwing itself in 1978, when the visionary Deng Xiaoping replaced that thug Mao.

    India stopped screwing itself only in 1991..

    And that 13 year headstart is what China has, on the basis of which you people have such swollen heads. :crazy:

    In the late 2020s, China's growth will begin to stabilize, and India's growth will continue till late 2030s or beyond.

    This is going the future. Wait for 15 years and tell me if I was wrong.
     
  15. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Actually Indian growth will be more like the Chinese growth of the past two decades till 2030-40s(~9-10%) and after that will moderate to back to the present type of Indian growth(~6%) and will be so for the next few decades.... In fact India will be the largest economy by PPP by 2050 and will still manage a decent 6% growth then, the only major economy to do so......


    But of course we have to have a good party at the Center and not the looters(PC term for UPA)
     

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