Bollywood songs, dances banned in Lahore theatres

Rage

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Rage, we have to draw the line somewhere. Cutting of all ties with Pakistan will not only give Pakistan a quagmire, but other countries will also take a note of this and push Pakistan to dismantle/eliminate terrorist groups/camps. You have to remember, India was churned out of many many sacrifices. $3-$4 billion is peanuts compared to that. As for our youths, there are many Yojanas started by the GoI, which has benefited them. Also, I am not saying this move will definitely help, but since we believe in Gandhi and Ahimsa so much, let's believe in Non Co-operation once. That sure helped us during the British Raj.

"Are you going to give them jobs?". I guess you wanted to use "Many would lose jobs". So that you know, the tax I pay too goes into many schemes that GoI has for the poor.
Oracle, so here's what I'm asking you. Are you going to compensate them? How?


No, I'm not asking if you pay taxes. I know you do, and I do too. So, you're going to impoverish another section of society, so that they can be included in the government's 'poverty-alleviation schemes', too?

You think cutting off all 'economic-diplomatic-politico-cultural' ties with Pakistan is going to make it stop terrorism? How? Explain to me the economic logic behind that.

If you want to screw somebody, don't ignore them. Enter their house and take over their goods, their markets, their machinery and their culture. Then, you will have really screwed them.

We are no American superpower. Pakistan does not depend on us for its trade. And any embargo we try to put on Pakistan will only backfire on us, because we make far more from extorting their resources, selling our goods to them, marketing our produce, our films, our steel, our coal and clothing wares, marketing our agricultural products <on which our farmers' livelihoods depend> and our chemicals and cosmetics/sanitary products than they do from us.

What yojanas have benefitted our youth, to the full extent that we pay our taxes, baba? So, your solution is to hinge on a crazy bet, to close off a market that our people benefit from, so as to impoverish that section of society that does, and have a further share taken off from our taxes and go into these grubby politicians' pockets, to the extent that they're incorporated in these programs? Are you trying to make people independent, or patronize them?
 
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The Messiah

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I think we should ban Pakistan from using our movies, songs, TV serials, all cultural products like our dance forms (like Kathak) and classical music etc.

Let them sort out among themselves what they want. Once they have lived without Indian culture for a few decades (and tried the Arabic culture they so crave), let them decide once and for all whether they need Indian cultural products or not.

I am fed up of their ungratefulness. Indian culture gives them their only source of happiness and then they abuse the same. The vulgarity is in their society not outside. Look at their own movies and Pashto moti dances. Bloody hypocrites!
We should not.

We are owning them culturally and you want to give what the mullah brigade in pakistan wants.
 
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Rage

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I think 70% or more of Pakistan shares it's culture Similar to Iran and Middle east. Racially also, Pakistanis are different from Average Indian. Somehow Pakistan is Obsessed with India Rather than Vice Versa.
India is talked and discussed by most Pakistanis(either Hate or Appreciation) unlike What We Indians do. There is a need to FOCUS Pakistani Psyche entirely to Arab/Persian Culture Such that Hindi Cinema,Music, Indian Culture are to be seperated from common Pakistanis mind. This Will benefit in long term. it's only couple of decades hopefully that Afghani/Irani Culture is accepted and Appreciated by Pakistanis.

India will be lost from the Minds of Average Pakistanis if such a Going back to Roots movement starts in Pakistan. Pakistanis reading this Thread are Welcome to Start on Your Own to Accept their Original Culture that is Middle Eastern as well as Closer to Persian.

That is as factually incorrect a statement as you could ever make. Where do you get this from?? the Pakistani defense forum? 50% of Pakistanis are Punjabis, and Punjabis all share the distinctive, dominant Haplogroup, L, that is native to the subcontinent. Among the region this is most prevalent in, Indians and Pakistanis have the highest frequency; and interestingly, among them, the highest frequency is found in south western Balochistan along the Makran coast upto the Indus River delta. So the Pashtuns are the only ones that are genetically-non-native to the subcontinent. So, racially at least, that argument makes no sense. And then, even among this figure, I don't include the 10% Mohajirs that migrated to that section of the subcontinent; and the 14% Sindhis, that share their distinctive culture with this side of the Rann of Kutch.

Pakistan's misplaced and misguided leaders have tried desperately to separate themselves socio-culturally from their Indian neighbours, often as a product of trying to further the aspirations of their military-elite. but their roots, their history, their culture and their genetics always come back to bite them. In the end, they are as much subcontinental as we are.

Pakistanis watch Hindi movies for a reason: it appeals to them conservatively, while leaving a lil' room for liberal maneuvering, harkens back to images and symbols they recognize, idealizes values and mores they share, uses imagery of symbols: of dress, of food, of festivals, of family and patriarchal relations they understand; and speaks in a language, they understand. What is all this?? Culture.
 
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The Messiah

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Good post rage.

Elite in pakistan always try to portray themselves as distant from India. Arabs and persians as it is consider them lower than themselves in the pecking order....they have a lost identity.

They love to live in denial and delusion.
 

ejazr

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Well leaving aside the stupidity of this ban, India should not change being an open cultural nation just because Pakistan doesn't want to be.

And India is to benefit in any case. Terrorists don't seek visas and perform on TV channels or in the music industry. Bollywoods's multi-faith and multi-cultural productions and the powerful Urdu/Hindi lyrics that drive its song and music industry will ALWAYS find an audience in Pakistan because that is what they can understand and identify with including its social issues.

They can understand or identify with Chinese or say Arab movies. Infact, Bollywood has a strong presence in the Arab world already.

What India should be doing is co-opting the cultures that historically belonged to India. We never have any problems with Bengali cultural interactions with Bangladesh for examples. And when Rabbi Shergill remade "Bulla na jaane main kaun" he was a hit in Pakistan too.

I would go further and say that we should have Sindhi, Seraiki and Pashto cultural interactions were India becomes a centre for these cultures as well. India beenfits from this interaction as it moderates and counters extremists views of India being an enemy. It is negative for PAkistani establishment as it breaks the narrative of India being the enemy. The same applies to trade, India benefits from trade with PAkistan and ofcourse transit trade as well to have trade with AFghanitan and CARs. The Pakistani establishment will not as it will give a stake to the average Pakistanis in having good relations with India and put pressure on the establishment as well.

Barring another major terrorist attack which would be a game changer, GoI has taken a conscious view on working along this lines. The US obviously is pusing for this as its in US interests for now for India-Pakistan to have neutral relations if not friendly.

At the same time, this doesn't prevent India from doing thorough checks when handing out visas to Pakistanis. Monitoring their status and visits within India. And ofcourse overall improving its policing and intelligence efforts which have been sorely lacking till now.
 

thakur_ritesh

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Ritesh, valid points. However, your arguments hold little ground when we are discussing Pakistan and cultural exchanges between the two countries. You talked about the after-effects, I merely asked OR I ask even now, why terrorism/terrorists from Pakistan are killing innocent Indians? And why should we entertain them? Is there any need?

Yes, our Country is run by self loathed losers, but that does not give Pakistan the right to train and send in terrorists to kill our citizens, in the first place.
Mate I certainly didn't bring terrorism in this discussion, I was reacting to an ongoing discussion and I am not only talking about after effects but factors on which we directly have control on but we hardly ever reflect on or do something about those.

It was time we the Indians within India stopped talking the language of our political class which has vested interests on blaming everything outside, on which our country, you and I have little to no control and which becomes an easy escape route for our rather wily political class. An excuse which has fooled us far many more times than it should ever have, how many more times do we have to keep getting fooled over and over again and yet not learn? Earlier there used to be the crap talk of spirit of the city where the needy next day of a blast/terror attack used to be on the road earning bread and butter, thankfully atleast that has been done away with!

What do we as Indians have control on? Internal security or terror training camps in pakistan? Who is responsible for strengthening this security, an Indian who has been tasked up to do it or a Pakistani who finds loopholes and penetrates within? Who is responsible for not figuring out and fixing those loopholes at the earliest, an Indian or a Pakistani? What are/were our agencies doing when Pakistanis come/came to india to recruit terrorists or when home grown terrorists head/ed overseas, get/got in touch with those Pakistanis, get/got training, return/ed home, go/went on a recruitment drive?

Why is it that we wake up only when a blast/terror attack has happened and then as an after effect we direct our frustrations on Pakistanis who were smart enough to do all that they did but never show the same frustration back on how badly we as a country messed up the whole thing something which was allowed to happen right under our supposedly watchful eyes by our own, and with all those guys tasked up to secure the country (politicians and babus alike)going on a media overdrive to put the blame again on outside factors even when these people were found inefficient/incompetent/lazy or whatever in delivering what they were supposed to do. And when all of these things have happened how is it we never hold these people accountable, on the contrary reward them with plush postings?

Thankfully our army doesn't function like that or is full of excuses which our population would conveniently buy. Each time they find nonsense of the scale happening they immediately court martial the concerned person and rectify the loopholes where ever they be and no matter how big a price to pay in bargain. May be our democracy needs to learn a thing or two from the men in uniform!

The day this country starts calling a spade a spade, starts taking responsibility of all that happens in this country and starts doing something about all that, a lot of problems would have gone, Pakistan or no Pakistan! Pakistan will be able to do only that much and that "that much" then can be well taken care of through international diplomacy but not the way we go about dealing with it right now where we within find no faults of our own.

Lastly just as few others are saying, solution doesn't remain in isolating india from their talent but to squeeze out all the good they possess and let them rot with the leftovers if they so wish. If india were to do that not only will we directly benefit in terms of varied talent, a much larger base of international audience, soft international diplomacy, compounding effects on economy of which we are in dire need but crush whatever little competition that is there and become a hub for excellence.
 

Rage

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Dawg, what are you trying to say!

That is my city. You think I don't give a shit about its people?!

There was a higher chance of one of my relatives being killed in one of those trains coming back from work, than one of yours.


You are not thinking this thru! Step aside and think of all those people you're going to disenfranchise to avenge someone that is 'dead'. And yet it will not 'prevent' terrorism one bit.
 

Oracle

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Rage/Ritesh, you got me wrong. When I said 'Agree with Rage and Ritesh!', I did mean it. Both of your posts and the points contained helped me realize trade or no trade, Pakistan will continue to support terrorism. So, if in between, our people earn some bucks, it's not that evil. We need money from wherever we can, as we need huge investments in our Infrastructure. Maybe growing trade will help change Pakistani mentality, the way they see India now.

Now, for the link I posted - This is a new video released by the GoI, just before the High Court verdict in the 26/11 case. Maybe to influence the Judges! There was no malicious intent playing on in my mind, when I posted that link.

I feel sad that my post evoked extreme reactions from both of you engaging me on a personal level, which clearly was not my purpose. I have no ill will, nor did I intend to create one. My bad!
 
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Singh

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Pakistan esp Lahore has a very vibrant "theatre" scene aka "stage drama" scene. Before the Islamisation of Zia it was an important medium of creative expression and public enlightenment.

Zia and his mullah cronies realized that the theatre walas, film walas, tv walas, press walas were liberals and many were socialists so they curbed
them.

Later, there came a point where the stage dramas/theatre shed their social message and instead became a form of light comedic entertainment. They became very popular with the young and old alike.
With the advent of cable television, dvds etc. the Indian media juggernaut knocked the socks off Pakistani media. Pakistanis were glued to Indian movies, music, tv shows and slowly and slowly Pakistani cinema, tv shows, and stage shows stopped being relevant.

Perhaps to combat this declining popularity, Mujras inspired by bollywood item songs and adult vulgar jokes were introduced to regain popularity.
Slowly and slowly the stage dramas became nothing more than an x rated stage shows where obscene dances and vulgar jokes took over and their connoisseurs from the elites became lowbrows.

Today infact the Mujras are so popular that the 1st 20 channels on local cable all show mujra dances, most Pakistani movies produced are downright vulgar and obscene (they being financed by rural gujjars also has a lot to do with it)

I believe to combat this vulgarity and obscenity the LAC (Lahore Arts Council) is trying to ban bollywood item songs and dances. I however, believe this is an exercise in futility. One can't stop Indian films and music from entering as most of the e-pirates are Pakistanis and secondly after seeing the liberal culture of India, the lower class Pakistanis might get frustrated with the very closed society (at least for those classes) so these stage shows are a way off release for them.
 

Vinod2070

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We should not.

We are owning them culturally and you want to give what the mullah brigade in pakistan wants.
Well, it was more rhetoric. I do get pissed off with the hypocrisy sometimes but I agree with you.
 

Rage

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Rage/Ritesh, you got me wrong. When I said 'Agree with Rage and Ritesh!', I did mean it. Both of your posts and the points contained helped me realize trade or no trade, Pakistan will continue to support terrorism. So, if in between, our people earn some bucks, it's not that evil. We need money from wherever we can, as we need huge investments in our Infrastructure. Maybe growing trade will help change Pakistani mentality, the way they see India now.

Now, for the link I posted - This is a new video released by the GoI, just before the High Court verdict in the 26/11 case. Maybe to influence the Judges! There was no malicious intent playing on in my mind, when I posted that link.

I feel sad that my post evoked extreme reactions from both of you engaging me on a personal level, which clearly was not my purpose. I have no ill will, nor did I intend to create one. My bad!
Well, then I must apologize. I jumped the gun. And for that, I am sorry.

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I just want to make one thing clear. I don't consider Oracle's position extreme at all. In fact, if anything, I consider my position extreme. Because, it involves a taking of something from some one else, and using it to my own benefit. It involves the exploiting of talents, undeveloped and under-developed because of the sheer incompetence and impotence of others, and utilizing it to my own advantage. It involves the taking of my culture to them, and making it theirs for the long haul. Because it involves, in opposition to the complete ignorance of the other, a complete subsumption of their culture.
 

Oracle

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Well, then I must apologize. I jumped the gun. And for that, I am sorry.

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I just want to make one thing clear. I don't consider Oracle's position extreme at all. In fact, if anything, I consider my position extreme. Because, it involves a taking of something from some one else, and using it to my own benefit. It involves the exploiting of talents, undeveloped and under-developed because of the sheer incompetence and impotence of others, and utilizing it to my own advantage. It involves the taking of my culture to them, and making it theirs for the long haul. Because it involves, in opposition to the complete ignorance of the other, a complete subsumption of their culture.
It's ok Rage, you don't have to apologize. My post started the confusion in the first place.

I agree with you point. We should suck whatever talent is there in Pakistan, dry. Also, more business means more and more Pakistanis depending on India for their livelihood. Not a bad idea after all.
 

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