C-17 Globemaster III (IAF)

[Gessler]

See, this is quite typical forum/fan boy thinking- you can get 3/4/5/6Y for the same price of X

It certainly is, but what else can we do if we don't have any other options on the table? If the possibility of purchasing USAF stocks is available, we would obviously go for that - but if and when it's not, the Il-476 is the only viable option left.

As I said, it's nowhere near an equivalent, but certainly is the 'next best' option. Unless they actually formulate a place for the turboprop A400M within IAF.

 

[Zebra]

Boeing said it, if I am not wrong, that they still got one aircraft.

At least something is better than nothing (I mean better than no more brand new aircrafts, at all).

What say .....................!

 

[Blackwater]

Boeing said it, if I am not wrong, that they still got one aircraft.

At least something is better than nothing (I mean better than no more brand new aircrafts, at all).

What say .....................!

Q is not be or to be Q is is Boeing making new generation of heavy lift aircraft ?????

 

[Zebra]

Q is not be or to be Q is is Boeing making new generation of heavy lift aircraft ?????

Not in near future,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think.

 

[Blackwater]

Not in near future,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think.

but they will definitely come up with new gen heavy lift plane amerika and NATO needs it.

wait and watch

 

[Zebra]

but they will definitely come up with new gen heavy lift plane amerika and NATO needs it.

wait and watch

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...her-nextgen-tactical-transport-project-03230/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

HAL was producing gud number of Hawker Siddeley HS 748, After it ceased the IAF and Goverment should have gone for BAe 146M or Russian AN-22 for same license production, There would be lesser stress now ..

 

[Zebra]

HAL was producing gud number of Hawker Siddeley HS 748, After it ceased the IAF and Goverment should have gone for BAe 146M or Russian AN-22 for same license production, There would be lesser stress now ..

OR
Now Ukrainian........................................................!

 

[AnantS]

HAL was producing gud number of Hawker Siddeley HS 748, After it ceased the IAF and Goverment should have gone for BAe 146M or Russian AN-22 for same license production, There would be lesser stress now ..

India is acquiring Airbus C 295 for replacing Avro. C 295 also is quite comparable to AN 32. Moreover, as part of the order they are going to be assembled in India

 

[Kunal Biswas]

That deal is hanging as these C 295 are replacement for AVROs, Which have life in them ..

MTA is meant to replace AN32 and reinforce C-130J fleet, But that too is now uncertain ..

India is acquiring Airbus C 295 for replacing Avro. C 295 also is quite comparable to AN 32. Moreover, as part of the order they are going to be assembled in India

 

[AnantS]

That deal is hanging as these C 295 are replacement for AVROs, Which have life in them ..

MTA is meant to replace AN-32 and reinforce C-130J fleet, But that too is now uncertain ..

I think C 295 bid is already undergoing evaluation under DPP. C295 meets and exceeds most of AN 32 Characteristics(Baring Top Speed, which is slightly less). I think one on one, C 295 can replace AN 32. However MTA was in different class. And I think, its shortsightedness of IAF that they have given up on an excellent proposal. I think next thing could be if India could partner with Brazil to produce KC 390 in India or Ukranine for AN-74TK-300

 

[abingdonboy]

Q is not be or to be Q is is Boeing making new generation of heavy lift aircraft ?????

but they will definitely come up with new gen heavy lift plane amerika and NATO needs it.

wait and watch

The USAF's needs are met for the next 30 years at least. The next generation transport a/c is a very low priority item for them (and NATO). The IAF needs something today, not 25-30 years from now. Like I said, the real crisis will be 10-15 years from now when the IL-76 fleet starts to be phased out and there is no a/c in development (Western or Eastern) that fills the requirement perfectly.

The MoD/GoI has royally screwed the IAF but they don't care because it will be the some future government's problem. Such is politcs.

HAL was producing gud number of Hawker Siddeley HS 748, After it ceased the IAF and Goverment should have gone for BAe 146M or Russian AN-22 for same license production, There would be lesser stress now ..

This wouldn't have addressed the problem at hand ie the heavy lift fleet's woeful state.

That deal is hanging as these C 295 are replacement for AVROs, Which have life in them ..

MTA is meant to replace AN32 and reinforce C-130J fleet, But that too is now uncertain ..

The C-295 deal will be signed this year from what I hear, the MTA is offcially dead.

I think C 295 bid is already undergoing evaluation under DPP. C295 meets and exceeds most of AN 32 Characteristics(Baring Top Speed, which is slightly less). I think one on one, C 295 can replace AN 32. However MTA was in different class. And I think, its shortsightedness of IAF that they have given up on an excellent proposal. I think next thing could be if India could partner with Brazil to produce KC 390 in India or Ukranine for AN-74TK-300

The IAF is not at fault for the MTA mess, the Russians refused to listen to the Indian side and given India is footing 50% of the development costs it had the right to demand the latest tech (FADEC). You can't blame the IAF for the regressive mindsets of the Russians.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The best case scenario is if the production line actually re-opens. But it won't reopen for just 10-16 aircraft, the USAF itself will have to table a requirement for additional C-17s, as should some NATO partners. PKSG had said a while ago that the line will re-open, as the US itself will need more C-17s in the future.

One of the problems I see is that we are always lacking when it comes to making our ultimate requirements (total projected numbers) clear to the vendor beforehand. If we had made a clear-cut statement to Boeing at the time of the initial purchase (or during the deliveries) that we have a total projected requirement of 26-30 Globemasters, it may have just been possible that they keep the line on hold - while we work up the payment issues & methods. Not saying that this approach would have been fool-proof, but atleast we would put in a word.

But we can neither count on the line re-opening, nor just sit by watching. In the meantime, it does seem a good idea to request the purchase of some Globemasters that the US keeps in reserve/stand-by. They really wouldn't have clocked many hours and even if they do it really doesn't matter, these transports are long-serving platforms.

But we also have to look at alternatives. As you said, the Il-476 (also called Il-76MD-90A) is little more than a refurbished Gajraj with new engines. But the saving grace would be that eventhough it doesn't offer an airlift capability near that of C-17, we may actually be able to buy twice as many of these with the same money we would otherwise keep aside for C-17s. We already operate the type so getting used to it won't take as much time...as long as we can keep the spares supply lines clear and localize the maintenance as much as possible.

For some reason, the A400M in IAF looks so out of place - as if it wasn't meant to be.

I don't agree if India had placed an order for any decent amount the order would have been fulfilled.

This is a lot of bs after orders are placed many deals are changed or cancelled etc

I don't believe all the news about anything ordered until it is inducted


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[abingdonboy]

I don't agree if India had placed an order for any decent amount the order would have been fulfilled.

This is a lot of bs after orders are placed many deals are changed or cancelled etc

I don't believe all the news about anything ordered until it is inducted


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True but once the first payment is made then the order is all but a certainty. There is little scope for controversy around these birds and thus if the funds had been there at the time more C-17s would have been ordered that's for sure.

The IAF was just very very unlucky in its timing, already it was the last large customer of the C-17 and made its order after USAF orders had been fulfilled meaning the Long Beach plant was already on borrowed time at that point. As such, the IAF was always going to find themselves facing the possibility of not having their long term requirements met unless they placed orders very very soon after first delvieries were made. And this is where procedures and the inability of the Indian beaucracy to be responsive to its enviroment really hurt the IAF in the long term. Decsions needed to be made in a quick period of time, clearances needed to be recieved from the very top and funds released. Usually there is a 1-2 year gap from last delivery to the next contract for follow-on units (if any are needed/wanted) within the Indian Mil but in this instance the clock simply ran out, the plant closed and the remaining "white tails" were snatched up by more aggressive and intelligent customers.

Usually the Indian Mil isn't facing these kinds of time pressures when it comes to procurements and we all know how efficent the babus are but in this instance a perfect storm was created and the inability of those babus and the civlian "leaders" to recognise the crisis for what it was led to the mess we know see.

 

[AnantS]

The IAF is not at fault for the MTA mess, the Russians refused to listen to the Indian side and given India is footing 50% of the development costs it had the right to demand the latest tech (FADEC). You can't blame the IAF for the regressive mindsets of the Russians.

The complaint is not about the requirement. But timings of creating a new requirement. This is not DRDO, where IAF can suddenly demand new requirements, when drawings/specs have been frozen. IAF is highly immature when it comes to plan well for future and then having confidence to stick to those plans till end. Like a kid in candy/toy shop, IAF dithers a lot.

 

[Bahamut]

The complaint is not about the requirement. But timings of creating a new requirement. This is not DRDO, where IAF can suddenly demand new requirements, when drawings/specs have been frozen. IAF is highly immature when it comes to plan well for future and then having confidence to stick to those plans till end. Like a kid in candy/toy shop, IAF dithers a lot.

The present engine meant all the demand and there were talks of FADEC engine in joint upgrade but IAF wanted it immediately and no one had the money or resources for another engine so it went cold.

 

[abingdonboy]

The complaint is not about the requirement. But timings of creating a new requirement. This is not DRDO, where IAF can suddenly demand new requirements, when drawings/specs have been frozen. IAF is highly immature when it comes to plan well for future and then having confidence to stick to those plans till end. Like a kid in candy/toy shop, IAF dithers a lot.

Actually the FADEC requirement had existed from day one, I don't know why the Russians entirely ignored that demand for the entire span of the "partnership". It's easy to blame the IAF but I will give them the benefit of the doubt here. They are the end users and are the ones who are being asked to cover 50% of the development costs out of THEIR budget, they have every right to make requests to tailor the end product to their needs. They are not some two bit African AF, they are world class proffesionals and know what they want and why they want it. There's nothing unreasonable about what the IAF did here, the Russians simply thought they could take India on another ride and milk them for all they could- it's a story that is repeated in almost ever Indo-Russian defence deal; Vikramditya, T-90S, Talwars, Kilo upgrades, PAK-FA/FGFA etc etc.

Since the collpase of the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation has been taking advantadge of the fact that they had a near unchallenged monoply in the Indian defence market, now the Indian Mil has other options and is (finally) standing up to the Russians who themselves are unable to delvier on their part of the deal.

 

[abingdonboy]

Anyway @AnantS @Bahamut let's not drag the MTA into this matter, it is seperate to the heavy lift fleet of the IAF and even if it had been developed as planned would not have addressed the issues I have outlined in my first post. The C-295/Avros/An-32/MTA are for the IAF's internal transport obligations and whilst the C-17s and IL-76 contribute to this, their main role is increasingly extra-regional operations/out of area operations beyond the Indian skies. As India's economy and interests grow with time the need for more high end platforms like the C-17 is only going to grow and grow but there seems to be no real awarness of this from the current "leaders" in the MoD or GoI.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I sometimes think the orders are altered because Russians call upset? Sounds silly but I would not doubt it


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[abingdonboy]

I sometimes think the orders are altered because Russians call upset? Sounds silly but I would not doubt it


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Which orders? Care to expand sir?