Indian Navy ASW discussion: capabilities, tactics and equipment

Kunal Biswas

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@aditya g ,

We also should involve strategy and terrain with respect to ASW that IN has vs PLAN and PN submarine force, Enemy sub specs are most welcome here such as noise level of PLAN nuclear sub and E&D subs incidents ..
 

bipin

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Ideally we need at around 35 to 45 subs to completely dominate Indian ocean. Around 27 to 35 conventional and 8 to 10 nuclear.

GOI's old 2030 plan is to reach 24 subs,18 conventional + 4 nuclear + 2 on lease. Last DM has indicated that this number is not enough so this can change.

Best way to achieve numbers is by investing lots of money in domestic shipbuilding industry and speeding up process of JV.


PN sub fleet is a joke. Growing presence of PLA N in IOR is our main concern.

Patrolling in SCS shouldn't be our priority. We have much greater role in IOR.

Taiwan is a vessel state of US and HongKong is part of China. They don't need our assistance.
PN will get subs from China. They will sooner or later have a nuclear triad. This means that we need more subs against PN to play nuclear chicken. Ignoring them will really hurt us.

Having just ICBMs or strategic bombers is not enough for nuclear deterrence. Which is why subs are so important.
Either send your subs or your allies do it for you. China is doing both, sending their subs in IOR and selling Pakistan some.Maybe If we send subs in SCS it will deter them from such aggression. Assisting Taiwan would be a cover like China assisting Pakistan. Any suggestions to this are welcome.

I agree this is not a priority but more of a vision. Sailing in stranger seas is what makes the navy a blue water navy. Our navy has to go beyond IOR like China is going beyond SCS.

I think all of us agree that our sub fleet is growing far too slowly. By one account China will have 99 subs in 2030, they already have about 70 now which means they plan to build as many additional subs as India's projected sub fleet in 2030.

Source:
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ica-china-may-have-415-warships-by-2030-12979
 

Cutting Edge 2

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PN will get subs from China
PN's current sub fleet is almost non existent. China is selling old noisy diesel subs to Pak so no big issue. Our scorpions can easily outclass them.

we need more subs against PN to play nuclear chicken
Numbers alone mean nothing. We need properly toothed subs. eg: single Ohio class can carry 288 warheads enough to hold an entire country hostage. In our case minimum 4 nuke subs are enough (2+2 permenent cycle). For a credible tried we need 8 nuke subs. 4+4 permanent cycle(2 in AS and 2 in BoB). Maybe 2 more with CVBG but Anything more than 10 would waste our uranium reserves. (sub reactors need highly enriched uranium.)

Having just ICBMs or strategic bombers is not enough for nuclear deterrence. Which is why subs are so important.
We are already working on nuclear triad with Arihant class. First ship was commissioned last year, second sub is almost finished and S4 and S5 are under construction.

If we send subs in SCS it will deter them from such aggression
We have nothing to gain from making hostility with China in SCS. Engaging diplomatically is a wiser move.

Taiwan would be a cover like China assisting Pakistan
Taiwan isn't pak nor it will ever be. Pak is more of a willing servant of China. Pak's hatred for india outweighs their sovereignty. Our best bet is to join a military alliance with JP, Aus and US to keep China in check.

Our navy has to go beyond IOR
IN is already semi-bluewater navy. Our ships do sail in foreign waters including SCS. Putting IN's focus beyond IOR would require massive naval expansion.(lots of money)

China will have 99 subs in 2030
IN can't match PLA N equipment with 1:1 ratio because of massive economic gap. We need to deter China with quality equipment and intelligent strategy.
 

Spectribution

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PN's current sub fleet is almost non existent. China is selling old noisy diesel subs to Pak so no big issue. Our scorpions can easily outclass them.


Numbers alone mean nothing. We need properly toothed subs. eg: single Ohio class can carry 288 warheads enough to hold an entire country hostage. In our case minimum 4 nuke subs are enough (2+2 permenent cycle). For a credible tried we need 8 nuke subs. 4+4 permanent cycle(2 in AS and 2 in BoB). Maybe 2 more with CVBG but Anything more than 10 would waste our uranium reserves. (sub reactors need highly enriched uranium.)


We are already working on nuclear triad with Arihant class. First ship was commissioned last year, second sub is almost finished and S4 and S5 are under construction.


We have nothing to gain from making hostility with China in SCS. Engaging diplomatically is a wiser move.


Taiwan isn't pak nor it will ever be. Pak is more of a willing servant of China. Pak's hatred for india outweighs their sovereignty. Our best bet is to join a military alliance with JP, Aus and US to keep China in check.


IN is already semi-bluewater navy. Our ships do sail in foreign waters including SCS. Putting IN's focus beyond IOR would require massive naval expansion.(lots of money)


IN can't match PLA N equipment with 1:1 ratio because of massive economic gap. We need to deter China with quality equipment and intelligent strategy.
^ This is what's the exact response. BTW PN subs will never match us. in future we will have 8 (current fleet) + 6 (Scorpene) + 3 (Arihant) + 2 (SSN)

Possibly

3 (Scorpene +)
6 P 75I
6 SSN
2 Arihant +
 

aditya g

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To start off the conversation, lets consider how ASW strategy has to compare b/w PN and PLAN;

Pakistan Navy has diesel electric submarines which work very well in the Arabian Sea. To counter this we need to induct the Shallow Water ASW Craft that was planned some years back. Nothing has moved on this procurement. Ofcourse PN could try to send a sub to BoB on a sniper mission.

PLAN has both, but I doubt their diesel subs will move to IOR. Instead, the main threat comes from their SSNs in IOR. To hunt these we need a very different and strategy including P-8Is, Project-28 corvettes etc Hunting their SSBNs in SCS is going to be impractical imho.

@aditya g ,

We also should involve strategy and terrain with respect to ASW that IN has vs PLAN and PN submarine force, Enemy sub specs are most welcome here such as noise level of PLAN nuclear sub and E&D subs incidents ..
 

kstriya

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P8i fly very high so that it is not in range of Anti aircraft systems, but we cannot afford P8i in required quantity. How about having indigenous SARAS doing the same role for shalow water ASW with light weight torpedo's and P8i's can do the long range ASW hunting.
 

aditya g

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.... How about having indigenous SARAS doing the same role for shalow water ASW with light weight torpedo's and P8i's can do the long range ASW hunting.
You already have Do-228 in IN and ICG service that could potentially be converted to the role. Dorniers also have hardpoints for payloads. However, it is not just weapon delivery, the aircraft will also need sensors to detect and identify the submarine.



 

Kunal Biswas

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I think talwar class have littoral capabilities along with deep sea, These frigates are attached with western fleet, Vikramaditya is presently attached with western fleet with sea king ASW helicopter as well, Though at western sector PN can not have any real strategic victory ..

In case of PLAN, SCS is their back yard and if Indian went into offensive operation it have to go into SCS but in practical world its Andaman sea ( Littoral zone ) which is the real frontier for us..

In case of War PLAN will try to push inside and capture Andaman island chain if not all then some, For this they need to insert D&E subs through Andaman sea ( Littoral zone ) as these will act as scouts and if they get into Bay of Bengal ( Deep sea ) they an put a halt to supply chain of IN to support Andaman Island defenders, No island static defense can survive with support of fleet, If i recall PLAN has a intel post at north of Andaman island chain ..

To counter such measures, IN eastern fleet has Jalashwa ( Helicopter carrier ) and Shivilik frigates which are consider the best in IN, IN deployed most technological advance vessels at eastern sector ..

To start off the conversation, lets consider how ASW strategy has to compare b/w PN and PLAN;

Pakistan Navy has diesel electric submarines which work very well in the Arabian Sea. To counter this we need to induct the Shallow Water ASW Craft that was planned some years back. Nothing has moved on this procurement. Ofcourse PN could try to send a sub to BoB on a sniper mission.

PLAN has both, but I doubt their diesel subs will move to IOR. Instead, the main threat comes from their SSNs in IOR. To hunt these we need a very different and strategy including P-8Is, Project-28 corvettes etc Hunting their SSBNs in SCS is going to be impractical imho.
 

aditya g

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If you think about it, Indian Navy has a reasonably sized ASW force. Unfortunately most of the media discourse is mostly rants because of delay in helicopter acquisition and submarine delays. Popular perception is, "we have to counter X submarines with Y submarines" - in reality you cannot really counter one submarine with another submarine.

Hunter Killer role in subs is really for SSNs, who would "hunt" SSBNs far off from friendly shores in deep Atlantic and Pacific waters. Even if, say a Shishumar could hunt for a Agosta technically speaking, will IN really send her subs on a wild good chase in middle of sea? No, because you would rather send your subs to bottle up PN in Karachi and look our for PLAN ships in Malacca straits.

I think talwar class have littoral capabilities along with deep sea, These frigates are attached with western fleet, Vikramaditya is presently attached with western fleet with sea king ASW helicopter as well, Though at western sector PN can not have any real strategic victory ..

In case of PLAN, SCS is their back yard and if Indian went into offensive operation it have to go into SCS but in practical world its Andaman sea ( Littoral zone ) which is the real frontier for us..

In case of War PLAN will try to push inside and capture Andaman island chain if not all then some, For this they need to insert D&E subs through Andaman sea ( Littoral zone ) as these will act as scouts and if they get into Bay of Bengal ( Deep sea ) they an put a halt to supply chain of IN to support Andaman Island defenders, No island static defense can survive with support of fleet, If i recall PLAN has a intel post at north of Andaman island chain ..

To counter such measures, IN eastern fleet has Jalashwa ( Helicopter carrier ) and Shivilik frigates which are consider the best in IN, IN deployed most technological advance vessels at eastern sector ..
 

aditya g

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https://thewire.in/64410/the-scorpenes-sting/

....

The aim of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) is to deny the enemy effective use of his submarines. This can be achieved by adopting tactical as well as material measures. The former is achieved through intelligence gathering, surveillance, detection and localising the submarine, before destroying it with stand-off weapons that permit the hunter to remain out of the kill range of the submarine.

It involves adopting doctrines for coordinated operations, setting up dispositions that inhibit freedom of submarine manoeuvre and tactics that trap it into a ‘destruction-zone.’ Material undertakings, on the other hand, are largely driven by advances in technology that keep platform design, sensors and weapons in a progressive state of change that enhance effectiveness in ASW operations. A marriage of intelligence, efficient tactics and resourceful doctrines, with capabilities of contemporary sensors and weapons, lie at the core of successful anti-submarine operations. Within this framework, for intuitive foreknowledge to be confirmed by information leakage boosts both probabilities of submarine detection, as well as destruction.

Anti-submarine operations begin with establishing a submarine probability area. This area is based on intelligence or on inputs from a wide area of surveillance networks, which include remote sensing satellites and sea-bed sensors, and indeed it may be based on electronic or capability indiscretions (surfacing, use of active sensors, communications and the like) of the target submarine. Then, the search phase, which involves a systematic and continuing investigation of the area, commences. The area may be demarcated to confirm the absence of a submarine or the search may be launched to locate and destroy it. In the latter instance it is centred on a datum (the last known position of a submarine, or suspectedsubmarine, after contact has been lost) that is based on the last or best known position of the target submarine. The choice of scouts is determined by the search rate and the degree of vulnerability to submarine counteraction. For obvious reasons ‘time-late’ at datum is a critical factor that can enlarge the search area to an extent when probability of detection diminishes geometrically as it follows an inverse cube law.

For this reason the preferred scouts for ASW are anti-submarine aircrafts using sensors such as sonars, sonobuoys, magnetic anomaly detectors, radar and infra-red sensors. Inherent in the detection concept is sensor ‘sweep width’, which uses a definite detection law — no probability of detection outside specified range capability, while targets within the specified range are detected with increasing probability.

Clearly, successful operations are critically founded on knowledge of enemy capabilities, the specification of adversary weapons and sensors, combat systems, acoustic signature, magnetic profile, and infra-red characteristics. Thoroughness of the search, technically termed as the ‘coverage factor,’ is heightened if operating parameters along with design features of the submarine, are known.

Planning an anti-submarine search is a complex craft. It is based on the search theory and the discipline of operations research, both of which were born at the same time and indeed share a common lineage: the necessity of securing the survival of allied naval shipping against submarine attacks during the second world war.

The passage of time has not changed the need, though ASW is conducted differently today than during the second world war. Search techniques used in ASW have potentially remained unchanged in concept, structure and application. Where changes are apparent, is in the use of advanced analysis methods and data processing systems using computers, wide-area networks and databases with provision for processing, identification and cueing located ashore. Target characteristics form an important consideration in modelling for simulation and combat preparation.

The first determination in planning and deploying ASW searchers is the probability of contact necessary for accomplishment of the mission, from which the coverage factor is obtained. Armed with this and knowing the sweep width of the sensor to be used, scouts are disposed at mathematically determined spacing and move along computed tracks such that early detection is rapidly followed by localisation and destruction.

This, theoretically, is how ASW works, but in the real hydrosphere many factors remain unknown. ASW is a complicated warfare discipline and proficiency can only develop through extensive simulation and training. Destroying a submarine is the hardest task in naval warfare; it can never be the submariners’ case to make this task easier.

...
 

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