Indian Martian exploration program

Kishore032

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Why the Indian Mars mission is more exciting than anyone seems to realize "¦

[Hi all – Greetings. I am a new member to this forum and I am glad to be here. This is my first post].

As a space buff, I've been closely following India's Mars mission Mangalyaan. The media coverage of Mangalyaan – whether it's Indian media, international media, or science and space media – has been largely formulaic. Almost everything I've read seems to fit into one of three formulas: (a) should a poor country like India be "wasting" money on space exploration, (b) is India positioning itself to become a budget player in the $300B space market, or (c) is this the beginning of an Asian space race between India, China and Japan ...


At the expense of sounding snooty, I find the reporting – including those of reputable outlets like the Economist, CNN, Times of India, New York Times, space.com – to be shallow at best, downright incorrect at worst. ISRO's poor communication – which is sciencese translated into bureaucratese – has not particularly helped (more on that later).

I am quite surprised that no one seems to have picked up the REAL technological significance of Mangalyaan "¦

Perhaps I can explain?

Before I get to why the Mangalyaan mission is significant, let me first debunk some of the statements and claims that have been made by media reports and have been quoted in this forum: "At $75M, Mangalyaan is incredibly cheap, compared to say, NASA's MAVEN mission that costs $675M." (Maven launched on Nov 18).


Fallacy: Maven is 10 times more expensive than Mangalyaan.

MAVEN spacecraft's launch weight is nearly twice that of Mangalyaan [2500 Kg 1300Kg]. When it comes to space, the cost-to-weight ratio is not linear; it's exponential. It does not cost twice as much to put a 2Kg craft as a 1Kg craft; but it costs an order of magnitude more than twice to put a 2500Kg craft than a 1250Kg craft. So the blackbox comparison of the cost of one mission against another mission is naïve and silly.
Mangalyaan costs $75M.

Fallacy: Mangalyaan is a bargain at $75M.

I don't know where $75M number came from but it's a completely meaningless number. Here is why:

(a) Launching a spacecraft (much like delivering a baby) is the least of the cost of a space mission. Mangalyaan – which will take 9 ½ months to reach Mars (baby analogy again) – needs a sophisticated infrastructure of for tracking, communication and guidance. The cost of this infrastructure includes people, instruments and strategic geographic locations. So, looking at just the launch cost of $75M is like saying that the cost of a baby is the fee paid to the obstetrician for the delivery. The $75M does not include any of the operational cost after the launch.

(b) But that's minor. Even more egregious omission is the fact that space exploration has a huge fixed cost; Mangalyaan's $75M – wherever that number comes from – does not include any of the fixed costs of building launching pads, command centers, tracking centers, propulsion labs, training centers, creating a supply chain for rare and toxic chemicals, building a deep space communication network, not to mention R&D. So if Mangalyaan's price is fully accounted for (or "costed"), by amortizing and apportioning this fixed cost across missions, MAVEN may even be cheaper than Mangalyaan since NASA flies 10x more missions than ISRO.
In other words, when the media or ISRO says Mangalyaan costs $75M, this is not the same as, say, Apple saying that an iPad costs $399. ISRO did not – and cannot – go and buy a Mangalyaan for $75M like you would go and buy an iPad. Continuing this analogy – With no market for this kind of "iPad", ISRO had to build its own factory to design and manufacture this "iPad". Since NASA has made an order of magnitude more "iPads" from its factory than ISRO, its unit cost is very different than ISRO's and may even be cheaper.

In other words, the variable cost of a single mission is a tiny fraction of the fixed cost. So, talking about the cost of a single space mission is meaningless, bordering on stupidity.

Don't get me wrong. I think Mangalyaan is super-significant; it's likely to change how we think about space, not because this particular mission is cheap, but because Mangalyaan could redefine how we - humanity - think of space exploration in the future.

An uninformed comparison between India and China that almost all media seem to be guilty of: "India will be ahead of China as China failed in their Mars mission." China never launched a Mars mission; China tried to hitch a ride on Russia's super-ambitious Phobos-Grunt that wanted to land on a tiny moon of Mars Phobos and bring back Phobos rock; the Russian launch failed because its Phobos-Grunt failed in one of its ignitions; true, China has not gotten to Mars, but China did not "fail" – the Russian rocket giving China a ride failed].

Stay tuned for Part 2 (hopefully before Mangalyaan enters the transfer orbit tomorrow).
 

pmaitra

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@Kishore032, that is an excellent piece of work. Thank you for sharing. I must say, you have started off with a bang! Keep up the good work.

If you don't mind a little criticism, try to keep the ending quotes after the ending comma, full-stop, etc.. I know, we are all attuned to thinking in the way Microsoft Excel or .csv does ("apple","banana","cantaloupe"). Here is a comparison:

With no market for this kind of "iPad", ISRO had to build its own factory to design and manufacture this "iPad". (Microsoft Excel style)
With no market for this kind of "iPad," ISRO had to build its own factory to design and manufacture this "iPad." (English Grammar style)
"At $75M, Mangalyaan is incredibly cheap, compared to say, NASA's MAVEN mission that costs $675M." (You got it right here.)


Looking forward to Part II.
 
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Free Karma

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Why the Indian Mars mission is more exciting than anyone seems to realize "¦

[Hi all – Greetings. I am a new member to this forum and I am glad to be here. This is my first post].

As a space buff, I've been closely following India's Mars mission Mangalyaan. The media coverage of Mangalyaan – whether it's Indian media, international media, or science and space media – has been largely formulaic. Almost everything I've read seems to fit into one of three formulas: (a) should a poor country like India be "wasting" money on space exploration, (b) is India positioning itself to become a budget player in the $300B space market, or (c) is this the beginning of an Asian space race between India, China and Japan ...


At the expense of sounding snooty, I find the reporting – including those of reputable outlets like the Economist, CNN, Times of India, New York Times, space.com – to be shallow at best, downright incorrect at worst. ISRO's poor communication – which is sciencese translated into bureaucratese – has not particularly helped (more on that later).

I am quite surprised that no one seems to have picked up the REAL technological significance of Mangalyaan "¦

Perhaps I can explain?

Before I get to why the Mangalyaan mission is significant, let me first debunk some of the statements and claims that have been made by media reports and have been quoted in this forum: "At $75M, Mangalyaan is incredibly cheap, compared to say, NASA's MAVEN mission that costs $675M." (Maven launched on Nov 18).


Fallacy: Maven is 10 times more expensive than Mangalyaan.

MAVEN spacecraft's launch weight is nearly twice that of Mangalyaan [2500 Kg 1300Kg]. When it comes to space, the cost-to-weight ratio is not linear; it's exponential. It does not cost twice as much to put a 2Kg craft as a 1Kg craft; but it costs an order of magnitude more than twice to put a 2500Kg craft than a 1250Kg craft. So the blackbox comparison of the cost of one mission against another mission is naïve and silly.
Mangalyaan costs $75M.

Fallacy: Mangalyaan is a bargain at $75M.

I don't know where $75M number came from but it's a completely meaningless number. Here is why:

(a) Launching a spacecraft (much like delivering a baby) is the least of the cost of a space mission. Mangalyaan – which will take 9 ½ months to reach Mars (baby analogy again) – needs a sophisticated infrastructure of for tracking, communication and guidance. The cost of this infrastructure includes people, instruments and strategic geographic locations. So, looking at just the launch cost of $75M is like saying that the cost of a baby is the fee paid to the obstetrician for the delivery. The $75M does not include any of the operational cost after the launch.

(b) But that's minor. Even more egregious omission is the fact that space exploration has a huge fixed cost; Mangalyaan's $75M – wherever that number comes from – does not include any of the fixed costs of building launching pads, command centers, tracking centers, propulsion labs, training centers, creating a supply chain for rare and toxic chemicals, building a deep space communication network, not to mention R&D. So if Mangalyaan's price is fully accounted for (or "costed"), by amortizing and apportioning this fixed cost across missions, MAVEN may even be cheaper than Mangalyaan since NASA flies 10x more missions than ISRO.
In other words, when the media or ISRO says Mangalyaan costs $75M, this is not the same as, say, Apple saying that an iPad costs $399. ISRO did not – and cannot – go and buy a Mangalyaan for $75M like you would go and buy an iPad. Continuing this analogy – With no market for this kind of "iPad", ISRO had to build its own factory to design and manufacture this "iPad". Since NASA has made an order of magnitude more "iPads" from its factory than ISRO, its unit cost is very different than ISRO's and may even be cheaper.

In other words, the variable cost of a single mission is a tiny fraction of the fixed cost. So, talking about the cost of a single space mission is meaningless, bordering on stupidity.

Don't get me wrong. I think Mangalyaan is super-significant; it's likely to change how we think about space, not because this particular mission is cheap, but because Mangalyaan could redefine how we - humanity - think of space exploration in the future.

An uninformed comparison between India and China that almost all media seem to be guilty of: "India will be ahead of China as China failed in their Mars mission." China never launched a Mars mission; China tried to hitch a ride on Russia's super-ambitious Phobos-Grunt that wanted to land on a tiny moon of Mars Phobos and bring back Phobos rock; the Russian launch failed because its Phobos-Grunt failed in one of its ignitions; true, China has not gotten to Mars, but China did not "fail" – the Russian rocket giving China a ride failed].

Stay tuned for Part 2 (hopefully before Mangalyaan enters the transfer orbit tomorrow).
Agreed with point 1, obviously increasing the size of the satellite is going to increase the cost (fuel, more instruments etc), and the launch cost.

The cost of putting it into space really does just come down to the launch vehicle used right?
PSLV puts 1400kg rockets to orbit at 75 crore rupees and a GSLV puts satelites of upto 2500kg and costs about 160 crores from the last flight details.

With regarding to the price of R&D,testing facilities, tracking and ground station and operating costs, the price tag includes everything. Wikipedia has a paragraph that summarizes all the costs of the project from various sources.

roughly..
R&D = 125 crore rupees
Satellite cost=153 crore rupees
Ground stations,relays launch etc= 176 crore rupees.

As mentioned a lot of the relays and upgrades will be reusable for future projects like the venus orbiter and so forth.
The government of India approved the project on 3 August 2012, after the Indian Space Research Organisation completed INR125 crore (US$19 million) of required studies for the orbiter. The total project cost may be up to INR454 crore (US$69 million). The satellite costs INR153 crore (US$23 million) and the rest of the budget has been attributed to ground stations and relay upgrades that will be used for other ISRO projects.[20]
Mars Orbiter Mission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ISRO actually did go and buy themselves a mangalyaan for 75 million :p :p
 

Kishore032

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R&D = 125 crore rupees
Satellite cost=153 crore rupees
Ground stations,relays launch etc= 176 crore rupees.

As mentioned a lot of the relays and upgrades will be reusable for future projects like the venus orbiter and so forth.

ISRO actually did go and buy themselves a mangalyaan for 75 million :p :p
Yes, Wikipedia does say that and may even be technically correct, but is completely misleading. To illustrate, let me ask you "how much does it cost to run a train between Delhi and Mumbai?" This is essentially an unanswerable question. You can add up fuel costs, the cost of the driver's salary, everything you can think of. But there is also the track, the electrification line, the salaries of the station masters along the way, the cost of installing and operating the signalling system and a million other things.

The $75M often quoted is at best the incremental cost of this mission; but there is a huge fixed cost infrastructure that's needed to support this: let me give you two examples.

The SHAR launch center - the space, the machinery and the people - are all ongoing costs whether there is a launch or not - much the same way the cost of the railway infrastructure cannot be easily calculated per train, the cost of these facilities cannot be estimated per mission.

When Wikipedia quotes an R&D cost, they are referring to the "incremental" R&D costs of this mission, not the total R&D costs which includes the recruiting and training of the scientists, their salaries in between missions, the cost of building and running standing facilities like the propulsion lab in Mahendragiri etc etc. To the extent that ISRO did not hire the scientists for this mission after the government approved the project and did not fire them after the Mangalyaan took off, the 125 crore R&D cost is a meaningless number.

And as a simple mental exercise: if you had $75M of spare change, will you be able to send a mission to Mars?
 

Free Karma

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Yes, Wikipedia does say that and may even be technically correct, but is completely misleading. To illustrate, let me ask you "how much does it cost to run a train between Delhi and Mumbai?" This is essentially an unanswerable question. You can add up fuel costs, the cost of the driver's salary, everything you can think of. But there is also the track, the electrification line, the salaries of the station masters along the way, the cost of installing and operating the signalling system and a million other things.

The $75M often quoted is at best the incremental cost of this mission; but there is a huge fixed cost infrastructure that's needed to support this: let me give you two examples.

The SHAR launch center - the space, the machinery and the people - are all ongoing costs whether there is a launch or not - much the same way the cost of the railway infrastructure cannot be easily calculated per train, the cost of these facilities cannot be estimated per mission.

When Wikipedia quotes an R&D cost, they are referring to the "incremental" R&D costs of this mission, not the total R&D costs which includes the recruiting and training of the scientists, their salaries in between missions, the cost of building and running standing facilities like the propulsion lab in Mahendragiri etc etc. To the extent that ISRO did not hire the scientists for this mission after the government approved the project and did not fire them after the Mangalyaan took off, the 125 crore R&D cost is a meaningless number.

And as a simple mental exercise: if you had $75M of spare change, will you be able to send a mission to Mars?
If I had 75 million and approached ISRO they would probably do it for me.

So you say include the land cost, cost of setting up the space center,etc to get the "real" cost. How would you compute the cost of maven then? Both the quoted costs I think are "incremental" then.

What is the cost of sending an email from your computer? Would you have to include the cost of the computer, the internet costs, the electricity costs, the cost of your house......

by this logic the "true" cost of anything can be extended indefinitely to the beginning of time tbh...you might as well include the cost of ww2 for maven as thats where most of the initial tech for space travel came from.
 
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happy

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Guys, ISRO website is not updating anything about the impending trans-martian injection. Getting tense. Few hours more I guess.
 

Kishore032

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If I had 75 million and approached ISRO they would probably do it for me.

So you say include the land cost, cost of setting up the space center,etc to get the "real" cost. How would you compute the cost of maven then? Both the quoted costs I think are "incremental" then.

What is the cost of sending an email from your computer? Would you have to include the cost of the computer, the internet costs, the electricity costs, the cost of your house......

by this logic the "true" cost of anything can be extended indefinitely to the beginning of time tbh...you might as well include the cost of ww2 for maven as thats where most of the initial tech for space travel came from.
Actually, I agree that Maven's quoted cost is also quite meaningless.

Maybe it'll help if I summarize my main point: when the fixed cost in producing something is disproportionately large compared to its unit cost and the number of units produced is small, talking only about the unit cost is misleading.

By the way what do you mean when you say "If I had 75 million and approached ISRO they would probably do it for me."?
 

tramp

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An interesting comparison of Mangalyaan and Maven missions.

Topics: Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM), mission status, explaining technology, MAVEN, trajectory diagrams, rockets

Two spacecraft launched for Mars this month: Mars Orbiter Mission on November 5, and MAVEN on November 18. But MAVEN is already on an interplanetary trajectory, while Mars Orbiter Mission is still in Earth orbit and will not depart for Mars until the end of the month. A lot of people are asking me: why the difference?

I knew it was related to their different launch vehicles, but to get a more informed answer I turned to David Doody, a senior engineer at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and author of the really awesome JPL online resource called "The Basics of Space Flight." Dave periodically teaches courses on how interplanetary navigation works; registration opens in April for his next one.

Dave confirmed that the different approaches were related to their launch vehicles and to the different spacecraft masses. For MAVEN, the trip to Mars is straightforward. That's because its Atlas V rocket was able to deliver both MAVEN (with a mass of 2500 kilograms, fully fueled) and an attached, powerful Centaur upper stage into Earth orbit. While already orbiting Earth, Centaur was able to kick MAVEN directly on to Mars. Dave explained:

On Monday the MAVEN spacecraft, stacked atop a Centaur upper stage, enjoyed a flawless launch, rising from Earth on an Atlas 5. The Centaur fired its engine to place itself and the spacecraft into a more or less circular Earth orbit. After twenty-seven minutes, it had coasted around to just the right point to start the trip to Mars: tangent to Earth's solar orbit on the midnight side. There the Centaur fired again, injecting it into its interplanetary trajectory. The spacecraft then separated from the Centaur and deployed its solar panels for cruise. (This is a familiar sequence, by the way. The Cassini spacecraft started out from Earth using two burns from its Centaur.) From here to Mars, it's just a long coasting free-fall, with the exception of a few very brief propulsive events to make trajectory corrections as needed.
Why are MAVEN and Mars Orbiter Mission taking such different paths to Mars? | The Planetary Society
 

tramp

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Let us try to stick to Mangalyaan in this thread.... let us not deviate. This is a seminal moment in Indian space history and let us respect the moment.
 

Free Karma

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Forward rotation of the spacecraft, to put it into the right orientation to fire, has commenced.
https://www.facebook.com/isromom
and so the preparations have begun !!

It's all totally computerised! so the scientists are just monitoring now, the total burn time quite long in comparison (1300 seconds!)

:scared2:::cool2:


Edit:
Forward rotation of the spacecraft has been completed successfully
:cool2:
 

tramp

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The 440 N Liquid Engine has commenced its 23 minute long firing for Tran-Mars Injection.

This will impart an incremental velocity of 648 m/s consuming 198 kg of fuel.
Good show!
 

tramp

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Guess what is critical now will be whether the spacecraft attains the requisite 11.4km/sec velocity.
 

Free Karma

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Tonight's manoeuver has been completed, imparting the required incremental velocity of 648 m/s.

The orbit determination team will get us the orbit details soon.
!!! :) :) :):cool2:

Yaay, lets wait for the orbital team to give us more details!
 

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