ADA Tejas (LCA) News and Discussions

[Kharavela]

yellow journalism & vested interests in the indian defence sector

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[Free Karma]

Pls tell me the source of the content you've written in quotes. If it is written by you, i request your permission to copy the content to my Facebook wall.

I got this through googling
Yellow Journalism & Vested Interests in the Indian Defence sector ~ Indian Defence News

 

[sgarg]

Tejas lacks the teeth IAF needs - The Times of India

NO EW ON SUKHOI SU-30 - MIRAGE-2000 COULDN'T CARRY WEAPONS: BIASED IAF STILL ACCEPTED THE AIRCRAFT: WHY NOT LCA

I have said the same couple of months back (or more) that the current in-production aircraft will be more advanced. I do not think LCA Tejas needs a gun. Gun is outdated weapon. However IAF will keep insisting on stuff to delay the Tejas fighter if nothing else.
Tejas needs electronics warfare, a good radar, and good air-air and air-ground missiles. The guns and rockets are weapons of yesteryears.

 

[ersakthivel]

Im not sure if your question is rhetorical but I'll explain what a DRFM is .. It basically takes in any radio waves that are hitting the aircraft analyses it and then creates noise in that frequency/phase and sends it back at the transmitter in effect blinding it . There are ways to counter it ofcourse especially with AESA radars that continuously shift their frequency . So it becomes an race as to who has the more powerful processor . If the DRFM cannot keep up with the radar the attacker wins .
DRFMs are also used to jam communications . You may know that all encrypted communication happens with frequency hopping radios . I remember studying about "smart" jammers that basically do the same thing, they analyse the spectrum and send a matching jamming system . This caused the development of fast frequency hopping systems ... you know arms race and all that ..
Sometimes jamming is desirable for example this funda is the basis of the CDMA technology used on your everyday mobile phone . Unwanted signals that come to your phone is rejected (only people that dialed your number get connected to your phone). 3G means CDMA (all these methods use a "spreading code" or pseudocode to mask the signal . If the receiver does not have the code it thinks that it is only detecting noise) .
I cannot find the Darin III article but the jammer used on Mig 29UPG..
ELT/568 ..
The self defence suit is not only being integrated on the Tejas but the suit itself is being tested . I would not expect anything for atleast 18 months to 2 years . If it is not satisfactory I suspect that the ELT 568 will be put on all tejas in the future ..
Offtopic : DFRMs are also what make the Akash and KUB missles used by India utterly obsolete .
Also the blog post is wrong both the Mig 29UPG and SU 30MKIs have DRFM jammers already . Tejas will not be the first to have it .Mirage probably has one but I don't know much about that.

What you described------- "but I'll explain what a DRFM is .. It basically takes in any radio waves that are hitting the aircraft analyses it and then creates noise in that frequency/phase and sends it back at the transmitter in effect blinding it ." is simple basic jamming technique.

DRFM is meant to counter the rapid frequency hoping radars who also change their radio wavelength.

.All modern EW suits use the DRFM tech. Any jamming system that can not keep up with enemy's rapid frequency hoping technique loses out. DRFM offers the strongest possible counter measure against enemy radars and of course every thing depends upon processing power.


Akash has no seeker, SO how does DRFM based jaming can tame aksah ?

Aksah has a command guidance and often fired in ripples 2 or more, It too has a sophisticated communication system. And it is not an easy job to jam more than three or four akash missile communication system within a span of few seconds.

tejas will be the first one to carry a fully integrated DRFM based RWRJ and counter measure deployment system all in an internal EW suit was what the article said.

DRFM based jamming is the latest jamming technique used all over the world, french call it passive jamming(some claim it as equal to 5th gen stealth!!!!) system spectra on rafale , Americans call it stealthy powerful jamming mode in F-35 and many people use many fancy names. but the basis is the same , DRFM based Ew suits are the latest . Even on these platforms if processing power falls behind enemy radar's frequency hoping tech then ew suit fails, it is same for all platforms,

No description is given of the processor being used in tejas Ew suit. This suit was dedicated to tejas program. You don't know anything about the rejected DARIN EW suit and the processor on the present tejas Ew suit.

In the absence of such information it is irrelevant to ask whether tejas DRFM based Ew suit is the same as that of the rejected DARIN jag Ew suit or mig-29 suit,

http://www.fas.org/asmp/resources/govern/109th/Pakistan_06-09.pdf

Pakistan – F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft

On 28 June 2005, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign
Military Sale to Pakistan of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft as well as associated equipment and
services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

Major Defense Equipment (MDE)

36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased
Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs);
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;

36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio
Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without
DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187
Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection
Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM and

I came across this document which says the American f-16 blk 52 upgrade for pakistan "does not involve DRFM based Ew suit. "

Why?

My opinion is Americans did not want such a sensitive tech to be given to pak, considering their close friendship with china.

Some DRDO material ,

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Electronic Warfare.pdf

Generally, radars operate at narrow bands of electromagnetic spectrum because of
operational constraints. The radar frequency bands range from 3 MHz to 300 GHz, but
most of them operate in what are commonly called 'Microwave Frequency Bands',
designated as L (1-2 GHz), S(2-4GHz), C (4-8 GHz), (8-12 GHz) and Ku (12-18 Ghz)
bands.

Very High Frequency (VHF), 50-300 MHz and Ultra High Frequency (UHF),
300-1000 MHz are generally used for long distance surveillance, because of their ability
to provide over-the-horizon coverage.

Search radars and tracking radars are most often
found in one of the higher radar bands, with S, C and X bands being the widely used
ones. The higher frequency bands like, Ku (12-18GHz) K (18-27GHz), Ka (27-40 GHz)
and millimeter (40-100 + GHz) frequencies are finding increasing use in mapping, fire
control, and missile guidance applications.

Some terms or concepts which are associated with radar and frequently quoted are radar
cross-section, , radar clutter, radar signature, radar silence, and the radar warning receiver .

It is quite evident from the above discussions that in the intervening years between 194l
and 1982, EW technology has advanced by giant steps. Nevertheless, those historic air
combat operations in World War II over the English Channel revealed the same basic
lessons as did the conflicts employing more complex systems at a much later time in
history.
"¢ No countermeasure is effective for ever. It is time-sensitive and time-perishable.

"¢ Countermeasures are more effective when used in a 'surprise' mode, The wise
battle planner should act accordingly.

"¢ Men make the ultimate difference in an EW engagement. A good system with an
unskilled operator will always lose to a marginal system with an alert,
knowledgeable technician at its controls.

"¢ Countermeasures, in themselves, are useful in military operations. Coupled with
imaginative tactics, countermeasures are decisive factors for victory.

In conclusion,the ability of a nation to control the three 'R's (recognition, reaction,
resolution) will tip the ECM/ECCM balance.

One must 'recognise' surprises and correctly
estimate their effect, 'react' immediately by alerting corrective forces to respond and
'resolve' the situation by a military/scientific group effort geared towards a dynamic
solution-motivated mission.

4.1 ACTIVE ECM
This involves degradation of the effectiveness of the enemy system by generating an
transmitting electromagnetic energy .This may be achieved either by noise jamming or by
deceptive jamming.
4.2 Noise Jamming

The objective of noise jamming is to inject an interference signal into the enemy's
electronic system such that the actual signal is completely submerged by interference.

This type of jamming is also called 'denial jamming' or 'obscuration jamming'. The
primary advantage of noise jamming is that only minimal details about the enemy
equipment need be known.

Within the general class of noise jamming, there are three different techniques for
generating noise-like If interference.

4.3 Spot jamming.

In this type of jamming, also called 'point jamming' or 'narrow-band jamming', all the
power output of the jammer is concentrated in a very narrow bandwidth, ideally identical
to that of the radar. Spot jamming is usually directed against a specific radar and requires
a panoramic receiver to match the jamming signal to the radar signal.

4.4 Barrage jamming.

In this type of jamming, all the power output of the jammer is spread over a bandwidth
much wider than that of the radar signal. In other words, it involves the massive and
simultaneous jamming of the whole of the frequency band. 4.5 Sweep jamming.

This is also similar to barrage jamming. In this case,.the power output of the jammer (i.e.,
jammer frequency) is swept back and forth over a very wide bandwidth, sometimes as
much as an octave (a 2: 1 band).

It is generally true that the bandwidth of sweep jamming
is wider than that of the barrage jamming, but the relative bandwidth is often determined
by the hardware used.

4.6 Deception Jamming

The objective of deception jamming is to mask the real signal by injecting suitably
modified replicas of the real signal into the victim system.

In other words, this type of
jamming is used to introduce false signals into the enemy's system in order to deceive or
confuse, and hence, to degrade that system.

This is in contrast to noise type of jamming,
whose objective is to obscure the real signal by injecting a suitable level of noise-like
interference into the victim system.

For deception jamming, an exact knowledge of not
only the enemy radar frequency, but all other transmission parameters is required. This
technique, in away , is spot or point jamming of a more intelligent nature.

Deception
jamming is generally used for self-protection applications against terminal threat weapon
types which employ tracking radars.

Deception jamming can either be manipulative, where friendly emissions are altered or
simulated to mislead the enemy, or imitative, where false information is introduced into
enemy receivers by imitating his signals.

Within the general class of deception jamming, three main electronic techniques to return
false signals have been developed. These signals have characteristics similar to those of
the radar, thereby deceiving the radar into erroneous conclusions about range, velocity or
azimuth.

4.7 Range deception.

Range deception jamming is used to foil missile guiding radar systems where the tracking
radar guides the missile (or other defensive measures) to the target in range by locking a
range gate on to the target. This range gate delays the target echo and its position is
relayed to the missile to be used for intercept information.

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-BVR-AAM.html

The latest Russian technical literature on the Su-35BM/Su-35-1 Flanker series shows that the KNIRTI Sorbstiya wingtip jamming pods are being replaced with a new design, which most closely resembles the G to J band TsNIRTI MSP-418K DRFM (Digital RF Memory - Цифровое устройство анализа и формирования радиосигнала (ЦУАФР)) based jamming pod, displayed at MAKS in 2003. The inclusion of DRFM capability is important, insofar is it is the current state of the art in Western defensive jamming equipment. A DRFM allows the equipment to digitally capture the hostile radar waveform with good fidelity, and then replay altered copies to deceive the victim radar. Refer MSP-418K URL: http://www.cnirti.ru/catalog-10-18.htm and 6-bit DRFM module URL: http://www.cnirti.ru/catalog-11-24.htm.

 

[Kharavela]

I got this through googling
Yellow Journalism & Vested Interests in the Indian Defence sector ~ Indian Defence News

Thank you, Sir.

 

[grampiguy]

DRFM jammers are making life difficult for other prominent missiles too. American AIM-120 AMRAAM is an example of it...

4 U.S. Weapons of War That Need to Be Retired Now

Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM

The Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM was the world's most advanced air-to-air missile when it was originally introduced in the early 1990s at the end of the Cold War. Compared to its AIM-7 Sparrow predecessor, the AIM-120 was a massive improvement with its combination of inertial guidance and active radar homing. However, as time has gone by, potential enemies have learned how to defeat the AMRAAM.

The missile is very vulnerable to digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jammers—which are found on the most advanced Russian and Chinese fighters like the Sukhoi Su-35S Flanker-E. American pilots say they expect they will have to fire several missiles to hit a single target. "Even with my six AIM-120's in the F-22, sometimes it is not enough," one senior Air Force pilot told the National Interest. "The Pk [probability of kill] of those missiles is low against a DRFM jamming fourth gen+ threat."

The AMRAAM must be replaced sooner rather than later—it's great to have the world's best fighters, but it's a huge problem if their weapons can't hit the broadside of a barn.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tejas is meant to have Cannon and it will be, Almost all Tejas carry GSH-23 ..

Its matter of time in few months this will go under test ..

Gun is outdated weapon. However IAF will keep insisting on stuff to delay the Tejas fighter if nothing else..

 

[karn]

Easy on language, It does not make it nice to read ..

The funny thing about this is All aircraft are meant to be in FOC config when it archives, Including the onces handed to IAF now, Old birds will be re-equipped have FOC config ..

This is something common in all nation who makes their own Fighters ..

Semantics .. Call it what you want training squadron / development squadron . It doesn't matter, today the airforce uses a lot of third party subsystems .All of which need to be qualified as well as pilots trained .

What you described------- "but I'll explain what a DRFM is .. It basically takes in any radio waves that are hitting the aircraft analyses it and then creates noise in that frequency/phase and sends it back at the transmitter in effect blinding it ." is simple basic jamming technique.

DRFM is meant to counter the rapid frequency hoping radars who also change their radio wavelength.

.All modern EW suits use the DRFM tech. Any jamming system that can not keep up with enemy's rapid frequency hoping technique loses out. DRFM offers the strongest possible counter measure against enemy radars and of course every thing depends upon processing power.


Akash has no seeker, SO how does DRFM based jaming can tame aksah ?

Aksah has a command guidance and often fired in ripples 2 or more, It too has a sophisticated communication system. And it is not an easy job to jam more than three or four akash missile communication system within a span of few seconds.

tejas will be the first one to carry a fully integrated DRFM based RWRJ and counter measure deployment system all in an internal EW suit was what the article said.

DRFM based jamming is the latest jamming technique used all over the world, french call it passive jamming(some claim it as equal to 5th gen stealth!!!!) system spectra on rafale , Americans call it stealthy powerful jamming mode in F-35 and many people use many fancy names. but the basis is the same , DRFM based Ew suits are the latest . Even on these platforms if processing power falls behind enemy radar's frequency hoping tech then ew suit fails, it is same for all platforms,

No description is given of the processor being used in tejas Ew suit. This suit was dedicated to tejas program. You don't know anything about the rejected DARIN EW suit and the processor on the present tejas Ew suit.

In the absence of such information it is irrelevant to ask whether tejas DRFM based Ew suit is the same as that of the rejected DARIN jag Ew suit or mig-29 suit,

http://www.fas.org/asmp/resources/govern/109th/Pakistan_06-09.pdf



I came across this document which says the American f-16 blk 52 upgrade for pakistan "does not involve DRFM based Ew suit. "

Why?

My opinion is Americans did not want such a sensitive tech to be given to pak, considering their close friendship with china.

Some DRDO material ,

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Electronic Warfare.pdf


The Russian Philosophy of Beyond Visual Range Air Combat

I know all that .. But thank you for the links .
It is good to know that Pakistan does not have DRFM jammers on their F 16s unless they use pods from China .
Also the mig 35 was offered with the the ELT 568. Which is the same one used on the Mg 29UPG upgrade . Had the Drdo suit been ready we would have to import this from Italy now would we .
I thought the vulnerability of the Akash would be obvious . The EW suit reads the radar signal painting it as well as the command signal coming to the Akash . As the missile comes closer to the aircraft the the beam from the radar widens as well as weakens . At this point is becomes matter of the signal to noise ratio . IF a lot of noise is sent out in the band the missile is operating in it is unable to decipher the command and then its finished . Semi active missiles have a similar problem but for different reasons . That is why active seeker missiles are considered state of the art . All missiles are commmand guided to an extent but the end game is always with the active radar seeker or an IR seeker . @Kunal ..At this point we are discussing the merits of the LCA EW suit and the different threats it faces . I think the discussion is appropriate.

 

[ersakthivel]

Semantics .. Call it what you want training squadron / development squadron . It doesn't matter, today the airforce uses a lot of third party subsystems .All of which need to be qualified as well as pilots trained .

I know all that .. But thank you for the links .
It is good to know that Pakistan does not have DRFM jammers on their F 16s unless they use pods from China .
I thought the vulnerability of the Akash would be obvious . The EW suit reads the radar signal painting it as well as the command signal coming to the Akash . As the missile comes closer to the aircraft the the beam from the radar widens as well as weakens . At this point is becomes matter of the signal to noise ratio . IF a lot of noise is sent out in the band the missile is operating in it is unable to decipher the command and then its finished . Semi active missiles have a similar problem but for different reasons . That is why active seeker missiles are considered state of the art . All missiles are commmand guided to an extent but the end game is always with the active radar seeker or an IR seeker . @Kunal ..At this point we are discussing the merits of the LCA EW suit and the different threats it faces . I think the discussion is appropriate.

On the contrary active missiles that switch on their smaller active seekers from 18 Kms or so stand no chance against DRFM based jamming. SImply it is a waste of time for ECCM of the puny active seeker which may weigh around 20 Kg or so to try to burn through DRFM based jamming or spoofing by tejas Ew suit.

You should also remember that active missiles will also need to be guided closer to target by the same command guidance that akash uses. In future missiles will use combination of both of them. However the evolution of DRFM based tech will pose challenges to both of them pin pointing on their peculiar vulnerabilities. in future no missile can compete against much more powerful EW suits because the processing and emitting power disparities will get higher and higher.

that is precisely the reason why ubber costly fighters like F-35 , rafale, F-22 are ridiculed by fighter mafia , in favour of agile lesser costly more in number single engine fighters like tejas. Because F-22 which does not even have a HMDS will be a sitting duck if , say in ten years time few nations achieve mastery in DRFM based jaming and spoofing of missiles .

Then after its six or so BVR missiles are spoofed, what will F-22 pilot do with his 400 million dollar craft? Scenario is possible, not science fiction. Because in any law of nature the defender has the advantage. because he can remain silent , the onus is on the offender to radiate , give away his location and try to shoot him from long distance with some puny little seeker based missile. the defending fighter has the advantage of massive DRFM based jaming and spoofing.

meanwhile the communication between Akash and command guidance radar is not tougher to jam, simply because by the time enemy fighter gets any inkling of the frequency type it may be very close , say within four KM(if the fighter has advanced maws). And a bevy of akash missiles approaching the enemy fighter within 4 Km warning is very difficult to jam for the fighter.

But active seekers illuminate the target from 20 Kms or so, it is much easier to jam them and they are vulnerable for a longer time. I am not saying that command guidance Akash is more advanced than active guidance SAMs. Just saying DRFM based suit makes it much harder fro both of them as both have different vulnerablities..

As time goes on the much more advanced EW suits using DRFM tech will easily overcome active seeker or command guidance missiles. having an ASEA radar can not guarantee sure fire BVr hit. because the smaller active seeking electronic components of a BVR missile and its communication links can never hope to beat these DRFM based suits.

Seekers that don't radiate and rely on reflected energy (passive seekers)from radar may appear as a boon. But since those radar signals themselves can easily be spoofed by DFRM based suits , then how can they get track of the target?

Even QWIP based Ir seekers will have to encounter DIRCM based suits which will blind them as well.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Semantics .. Call it what you want training squadron / development squadron . It doesn't matter, today the airforce uses a lot of third party subsystems .All of which need to be qualified as well as pilots trained .

I know all that .. But thank you for the links .
It is good to know that Pakistan does not have DRFM jammers on their F 16s unless they use pods from China .
I thought the vulnerability of the Akash would be obvious . The EW suit reads the radar signal painting it as well as the command signal coming to the Akash . As the missile comes closer to the aircraft the the beam from the radar widens as well as weakens . At this point is becomes matter of the signal to noise ratio . IF a lot of noise is sent out in the band the missile is operating in it is unable to decipher the command and then its finished . Semi active missiles have a similar problem but for different reasons . That is why active seeker missiles are considered state of the art . All missiles are commmand guided to an extent but the end game is always with the active radar seeker or an IR seeker . @Kunal ..At this point we are discussing the merits of the LCA EW suit and the different threats it faces . I think the discussion is appropriate.

singling out aakash facing threat from DFRM suits is not ok

you know as aakash (guided / without seeker ) is vulnerable so is the fire & Forget type radar seeker missiles vulnerable

the only difference is the link / ground based radar signal ebing jammed in aakash

the missiles own radar seeker signlas being jammed on other missiles

and so the algorithms used to filter the wheat from the chaff is more important

 

[cobra commando]

LCA Tejas to be Star Attraction at Aero India 2015

India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas which was handed over to the Indian Air Force (IAF) yesterday is expected to be the star attraction at the Aero India 2015 event in Bangalore. The aircraft which had enthralled crowds at Aero India 2013 with its breath-taking aerobatics may put up an even more impressive show, now that it has completed its flight test program or Initial Operational Clearance –II which signifies that it is airworthy in different flying conditions. At least three versions of the LCA Tejas, the IAF version, the Naval version and the trainer version will either fly at the show or will be displayed on the ground, informed sources told defenseworld.net. The LCA has completed over 3000 flying hours without any hitch which makes it one of the most elaborate test programs of any aircraft manufacturer in the world. The Tejas Series Production-1 (LCA-SP1) was handed over by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar to IAF chief Air Marshal Arup Raha, yesterday marking its entry into the IAF service. A news agency report said quoting HAL sources that the production of LCA Tejas will be 20 aircraft by 2017-2018, to make the first squadron of the aircraft. HAL's LCA Project Group has been upgraded to a full- fledged division to look after production in a systematic way with more investments.
LCA Tejas to be Star Attraction at Aero India 2015

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Pls tell me the source of the content you've written in quotes. If it is written by you, i request your permission to copy the content to my Facebook wall.

Yellow Journalism & Vested Interests in the Indian Defence sector ~ Indian Defence News

 

[karn]

On the contrary active missiles that switch on their smaller active seekers from 18 Kms or so stand no chance against DRFM based jamming. SImply it is a waste of time for ECCM of the puny active seeker which may weigh around 20 Kg or so to try to burn through DRFM based jamming or spoofing by tejas Ew suit.

You should also remember that active missiles will also need to be guided closer to target by the same command guidance that akash uses. In future missiles will use combination of both of them. However the evolution of DRFM based tech will pose challenges to both of them pin pointing on their peculiar vulnerabilities. in future no missile can compete against much more powerful EW suits because the processing and emitting power disparities will get higher and higher.

that is precisely the reason why ubber costly fighters like F-35 , rafale, F-22 are ridiculed by fighter mafia , in favour of agile lesser costly more in number single engine fighters like tejas. Because F-22 which does not even have a HMDS will be a sitting duck if , say in ten years time few nations achieve mastery in DRFM based jaming and spoofing of missiles .

Then after its six or so BVR missiles are spoofed, what will F-22 pilot do with his 400 million dollar craft? Scenario is possible, not science fiction. Because in any law of nature the defender has the advantage. because he can remain silent , the onus is on the offender to radiate , give away his location and try to shoot him from long distance with some puny little seeker based missile. the defending fighter has the advantage of massive DRFM based jaming and spoofing.

meanwhile the communication between Akash and command guidance radar is not tougher to jam, simply because by the time enemy fighter gets any inkling of the frequency type it may be very close , say within four KM(if the fighter has advanced maws). And a bevy of akash missiles approaching the enemy fighter within 4 Km warning is very difficult to jam for the fighter.

But active seekers illuminate the target from 20 Kms or so, it is much easier to jam them and they are vulnerable for a longer time. I am not saying that command guidance Akash is more advanced than active guidance SAMs. Just saying DRFM based suit makes it much harder fro both of them as both have different vulnerablities..

As time goes on the much more advanced EW suits using DRFM tech will easily overcome active seeker or command guidance missiles. having an ASEA radar can not guarantee sure fire BVr hit. because the smaller active seeking electronic components of a BVR missile and its communication links can never hope to beat these DRFM based suits.

Seekers that don't radiate and rely on reflected energy (passive seekers)from radar may appear as a boon. But since those radar signals themselves can easily be spoofed by DFRM based suits , then how can they get track of the target?

Even QWIP based Ir seekers will have to encounter DIRCM based suits which will blind them as well.

All Missiles are command guided upto a point . That is when end game seekers take over . Relying on the home radar to guide to missile right upto impact is significantly worse than having active seekers on the missile . The command guided missile is far more vulnerable to the jammer than one that has an onboard seeker .
.Any EW suit worth its salt will know the moment the search radar of the akash or any SAM picks it up not when the missile is within 4 Km .
What do you mean in the future missile will have both command guidance and active seekers ?The Barak is ready now Aster and many more missile use active seekers whereas initial targetting is done by the ship land/radar .Even BVR missiles are guided for a time by the radar on the aircraft .
DFRMs are not a magical shield that make all aircraft invulnerable. It depends solely on the qualtity of the product . It is field where the west is far far ahead . If this was not so Russia would not need to use western jammers on their new export aircraft .
Akash represents very old technology .)Look at any class of missile command guided missiles represent the oldest generation of guided missiles .Precisely for this reason the Barak 8/LR SAM will be the SAM of the future for the Airforce and army not any akash 2 (which supposedly has a semiactive seeker)
Also the F 35 is single engine aircraft and was supposed to be cheap they just screwed it up . If by fighter mafia do you mean the interview of the designer of the f 16 ?
On the last point technology advance for both the sword and the shield . Newer seekers are designed all the time as well as missiles with better processing power that can reject noise better , Things don't stay static.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is interesting, Can you elaborate how that so ..

They are indeed Vulnerable but not from jamming afaik ..

The command guided missile is far more vulnerable to the jammer than one that has an onboard seeker .

 

[ersakthivel]

All Missiles are command guided upto a point . That is when end game seekers take over . Relying on the home radar to guide to missile right upto impact is significantly worse than having active seekers on the missile . The command guided missile is far more vulnerable to the jammer than one that has an onboard seeker .
.Any EW suit worth its salt will know the moment the search radar of the akash or any SAM picks it up not when the missile is within 4 Km .

same applies to active seeker missiles, since they too rely on search radar and communication link with them for more than 70 percent of their flight path. That was what I was saying.Only in the last few Kms active seeker kicks in and it can easily be jammed by modern DRFM based Ew suits.

What do you mean in the future missile will have both command guidance and active seekers ?The Barak is ready now Aster and many more missile use active seekers whereas initial targetting is done by the ship land/radar .Even BVR missiles are guided for a time by the radar on the aircraft .

ready active seeker missiles also can be janmmed by DRFM jammers.

DFRMs are not a magical shield that make all aircraft invulnerable. It depends solely on the qualtity of the product . It is field where the west is far far ahead . If this was not so Russia would not need to use western jammers on their new export aircraft .
Akash represents very old technology .)Look at any class of missile command guided missiles represent the oldest generation of guided missiles .Precisely for this reason the Barak 8/LR SAM will be the SAM of the future for the Airforce and army not any akash 2 (which supposedly has a semiactive seeker)

If aksah is old, why is IAF and IA are saying they don't need maitri and aksh itself is enough for their needs. Why did they give tens of thousands of crores of orders to akash. Akash is far more cheaper than fancy active seeker missiles so it can be fired in numbers and it's ramjet propulsion means its powered on till the end game.

Also the F 35 is single engine aircraft and was supposed to be cheap they just screwed it up . If by fighter mafia do you mean the interview of the designer of the f 16 ?

Once world catches up in DRFM based jaming effectiveness of those 5th gen platforms that rely solely on stealth and BVR missiles will diminish.

On the last point technology advance for both the sword and the shield . Newer seekers are designed all the time as well as missiles with better processing power that can reject noise better , Things don't stay static.

things wont stay static on DRFM based Ew suit's processor power evolution either. No missile seeker will ever match that.
DRFm evolution will make aircrafts more or less immune from missiles in future as puny electronics of the seeker or communication link in the missile will never win over the sophisticated DRFM based Ew suit.

 

[sgarg]

things wont stay static on DRFM based Ew suit's processor power evolution either. No missile seeker will ever match that.
DRFm evolution will make aircrafts more or less immune from missiles in future as puny electronics of the seeker or communication link in the missile will never win over the sophisticated DRFM based Ew suit.

I think ground based radar can have more power compared to airborne radars. Any airborne tech can be trumped by ground based tech. An Akash will always be relevant. The SAM is more meaningful if guided by ground based radar.

Akash needs to be inducted in great numbers. Akash concept is sound.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas can fly supersonic with external loads, the sea level top speed of tejas mk1 is the same as that of SU-30 MKI and mig-29.

Tejas has the lowest clean config RCS among all IAF planes. It can beat mirage-2000 and mig-29 to pulp BVR engagement.

Due to the combo of high TWR and lowest wingloading among all the combat aircrafts its high ITR of 30 deg plus means it will always get a first look, first lock,first shoot solution against any modern fighters.

tejas mk2's TWR will exceed 1.2 with half fuel weight calculation mode and will have 9Gs making invincible in close combat.

F-16 versus Saab Gripen - F-16 versus XYZ

Read toan's post below.

A few years ago, SWAF made an interesting comparison among JAS-39A, F-16C/D Block40/42, F/A-18C/D, and M2000-5:

Gripen's acceleration in sub-sonic and trans-sonic domains: faster than F/A-18C/D and M2000-5, but slower than F-16C.

Gripen's instaneous turn rate: significantly better than F-16C, F/A-18C/D, and M2000-5.

Gripenss sustaneous turn rate: worse than F-16C, F/A-18C/D, but better than M2000-5.

The Gripen achieved the AoA of more than 100 degrees during the flight test, but due to the reason for flight safety, the normal setting of the upper limit of the AoA for the Gripen?s FCS is 50 degrees now.

Gripen's frontal RCS: about 1/5 of F/A-18C/D's, 1/3 of F-16C/D Block40/42's, and 1/2 of Mirage-2000-5's.

Detective range of PS-05A radar (JAS-39): a little shorter than AN/APG-65/73 (F/A-18C/D), but 20% longer than RDY (M2000-5), and 40% longer than the AN/APG-68 for F-16C/D Block40/42.

While combating with the basic type of MIG-29 (MIG-29G??) in BVR engagement:

JAS-39A: the effective range for Gripen to detect MIG-29 is 60 km longer than the effective range for MIG-29 to detect Gripen.

M2000-5: the effective range for Mirage to detect MIG-29 is 32 km longer than the effective range for MIG-29 to detect Mirage.

F/A-18C/D: the effective range for Hornet to detect MIG-29 is 25 km longer than the effective range for MIG-29 to detect Hornet.

F-16C/D: the effective range for Falcon to detect MIG-29 is 5 km longer than the effective range for MIG-29 to detect Falcon.

COme to defenceforumindia's tejas thread to know more about tejas,

Tejas has lesser clean config RCS than gripen. SO this demonstrates what is the deadly combo of low clean config RCS and 650 mm dia radar combo of tejas is capable of. Even gripen has just 600 mm dia radar, rafale has 550 mm dia radar, mirage has just 500 mm dia radar and typhoon alone equals the tejas radar size. Only SU-30 MKI has the bigger radar at 900 mm dia.

F-16 versus Saab Gripen - F-16 versus XYZ

Yeah the F-16 has a higher TWR, but have you ever considered drag or wing loading at all? The Gripen has much lower drag. And far lower wing loading. It can reach supersonic speeds on dry thrust while carrying a full armament of four AMRAAM's two Sidewinders and an external fuel tank. Even though the Gripen lacks the TWR of the F-16 it can nearly match it in climb rate thanks to low drag. The Gripen has positive lift on all control surfaces at all times. The F-16 needs to kill lift in order to turn by forcing the tail down. The Gripen just adds lift in front of the CG with the canards and the aircraft turns by itself. The canards then stabilize the turn rate, creating minimal drag. The IRIS-T is now being integrated for the Gripen. And with its modern infrastructure it can make much better use of it than the F-16.

The Gripens ITR is much better than the F-16's and will therefore get its weapons on the F-16 first. The Mirage 2000 for example wins 9 times out of 10 against the F-16 in WVR, and nearly always kills the F-16 during the first turn. This is thanks to its higher ITR. And the Gripen has a higher ITR than the Mirage 2000.

Tejas has better thrust to weight ratios and lower wing loading than mirage-2000. So it will be more effective in close combat ITR specs.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ersakthivel

Are we making our own Quartz radome while waiting for the Cobham radome

And why did not DRDO order this Cobham Quartz radome earlier

We have wasted ONE full year because of this radome delays

 

[sgarg]

@ersakthivel

Are we making our own Quartz radome while waiting for the Cobham radome

And why did not DRDO order this Cobham Quartz radome earlier

We have wasted ONE full year because of this radome delays

So the logical thing is to make Tejas with Carbon Fiber radome and replace radome later. It is not that the carbon radome does not work.
Quartz radome is an optional item. Mig-21 does not have quartz radome which Tejas is supposed to replace. Even Mirage 2000 does not have quartz radome.

IAF is imposing quartz radome on ADA. These are last minute requirement changes, which are being accommodated.

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel

Are we making our own Quartz radome while waiting for the Cobham radome

And why did not DRDO order this Cobham Quartz radome earlier

We have wasted ONE full year because of this radome delays

I too don't know why tere was a delay in ordering quartz radome. bt tamil Mani has said that the responsibility for the delay lies with Cobham and not with ADA. I will try to find the link and post it.

Also there was actually no delay as you think, Serial production goes on. And the composite radome cn be replaced with quartz as and when it is available. tejas is good enough to replace mig-21 even with 63 km range for 5 sq meter target with composite radome . It can validate derby for that range and enter service. through out its service mirage-2000 had lesser radar range and BVR missile range than this.

In 1979, the Swedish government began development studies for an aircraft capable of fighter, attack and reconnaissance missions to replace the Saab 35 Draken and 37 Viggen. A new design from Saab was selected and developed as the JAS 39, first flying in 1988. Following two crashes during flight development and subsequent alterations to the aircraft's flight control software, the Gripen entered service with the Swedish Air Force in 1997. Upgraded variants, featuring more advanced avionics and adaptations for longer mission times, began entering service in 2003

The first gripen which entered service in SWAF with

no BVRAAM
no HMD
no LDP
no in-flight refueling
no Aim-9M (only old Aim-9Ls)
no trainer variant (that came in Batch 2).

compared to that tejas is much more complete product in induction time. For many years t after induction the IAf mirage-2000s had nothing but gun as their main weapon , with weapons integrated later.Also first three or four years on initial new fighter squadron is spent exclusively on developing tactics using their specs.

IAf has given only a low volume order of 40 that too 20 in IOC specs and 20 in FOC spec. Soone year FOC delay wont delay fighter induction as HAl wont finish delivering 20 IOC tejas mk1 for the next two years.

After 100 F-35s in USAF reports are now emerging it wont be able to use its gun till some more time into the future!!!. It is also flying with much lower top speeds and lesser fly by wire envelope.

PAKFA is going to join Russian airforce with older Su-35 engines and its original engines are yt yo be developed to full potential.

People blew up things with vested interests only. because most of the two bit journos who write so and so things are not ready in tejas should have known these facts.No fighter arrives in any air force with full maturity of all its faculties.