Kaveri for Infamous MIG-21 fleet

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@ Roma

The issues maybe greater than changing people or Kaveri engine.
There are lot of burecratic red tape that becomes a big obstacle.
The whole system needs an overhaul. It will take time but I am
Optimistic.
 

sgarg

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thanks to both of you above for appreciating my sarcasm - i agree with both of your closing sentences

unfortunately all that did glitter is proving to be something other than pure gold , but there still is a
chance that it might be something less but still a version of gold - which is still better than what we had
preceding , so we're still to a large extent grateful !




as a general manager one has to make it one's business to know about an area under oneself that is
not delivering ...... that is why an engineering plus mba combination gets a high salary

when a general manager has to handle something technical , they claim the very excuse you have mentioned
that they are non tehnical and so cant be expected to know .....so the problem drags on ?

as for your statement that it is the DM and not PM who made the drdo changes
hah ! apparently you weren't around when it was widely known that the DM Parrikar
learned about the changes at drdo , through the media !:namaste:

nothing against you personally because i only ask for opinion from people whom i respect
and you can easily see that i have included you a number of times

no one is a know all around here except a few who pretend to be ....and i never ask their opinion .

addendum:- IF the kaveri is costing taxpayers money , and large sums of it ,
then it is namo's business to know what's going on and who too - and if he needs to kick
some butt ...then the right ones' please
.....meanwhile it takes more than just kick ...it also takes getting right ones in ....of course !

Your statements are uninformed and misleading.

Check this:

I recommended DRDO chief Avinash Chander's sacking; post should not be on contract basis: Parrikar
I recommended DRDO chief Avinash Chander's sacking; post should not be on contract basis: Parrikar | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis
 

sgarg

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@roma, you are probably aware, we learn not only from our successes, but also from our failures. Failure is a step towards success. This is an inherent part of research. Modi comes from an environment where balancing the annual financial accounts and seeing a positive number is seen as more important. People look at the money spent on research as a total waste if the end result is not good. What people don't realize is that the money spent which is seen as "waste" is actually useful, because that money went in as investment towards capability building. It is not waste. Of course, if things drag on, someone has to pull the plug.

There are too many variables in the scenario you mentioned. Removing and/or shuffling people around, in my opinion, is not a constructive idea.

Whatever Kaveri is today, we cannot discount the immense knowledge gained by the scientists and engineers who have brought the project thus far. Kaveri today might not be useful, but who knows, tomorrow, this very engine might be perfectly fit for a new twin-engined fighter or a small transporter, and if any small tweaks are necessary, GTRE might actually pull it off.

If India really wants to have full control of its foreign policy, then its dependence on imports have to be reduced, even if our products are a little bit inferior to the western counterparts.
Can you be more specific as to which programmes are cancelled? DRDO funds have increased significantly after BJP came to power.
 
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pmaitra

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sgarg

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@pmaitra, Modi does not remove anybody in DRDO. Such a notion is completely false.

Funding for programs in increased or reduced based on performance. If a program is not delivering, the program may be cancelled or its funding may be reduced.

Milestones are important in every project. Non-achievement of milestones is an indicator that program is not going well.

It is better to import technology than to keep on struggling indefinitely.
 
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pmaitra

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@pmaitra, Modi does not remove anybody in DRDO. Such a notion is completely false.
Ok.

Funding for programs in increased or reduced based on performance. If a program is not delivering, the program may be cancelled or its funding may be reduced.
Ok.

Milestones are important in every project.
Agree.

Non-achievement of milestones is an indicator that program is not going well.
Disagree.

I disagree, because, what you are saying is sometimes true, and sometimes false. The milestones should be realistic. If you have been following the Arjun threads, the initial milestones were ridiculous, and impossible without violating the laws of physics. Non-achievement of milestones can also indicate unrealistic milestones in the first place.

It is better to import technology than to keep on struggling indefinitely.
Agree.
 
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sgarg

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Overall funding may go up or down. There is a system of budgeting. A budget is not personal wishes of finance minister. MOF issues only guidelines and proposals for funding are received from different ministries. Each ministry review programs under it and sends proposals accordingly.

There is a preference for performance in this government. I have seen the same in the USA when I was there, where performance was rewarded and non-performance was punished. Why people based abroad criticise the same principle when applied in India?

The gross numbers do not tell much. The difference comes from efficiency of spending.

Milestones - some projects are strategic projects where milestones are adjusted. Arjun project may be called a strategic project. However some renewable energy project in IIT which is not delivering for years cannot be called strategic.
 
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pmaitra

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@sgarg, the debate is not whether a project is strategic or not strategic. Also, the debate is not whether milestones should be adjusted for strategic project. The debate is, what determines non-performance?

My argument is, not meeting the milestone is not an indicator of non-performance. If we want long term self sufficiency, we have to allow for expenditure, which to a pure businessman will look like loss, when it is not. This is one debate that one can never explain to an accountant, and Modi's past performance shows he is inclined to rely heavily on financial numbers instead of actually building the foundation so that we can have a long and sustained series of innovations that will require less imports.

Take for example the Mars Orbiter Mission. So many universities contributed. How much did those research students and faculty get paid? How much would researchers get paid in western countries? The costs are already cheap, so what is the justification for cutting the overall research budget? If certain researches are not delivering results, one can divert that fund to some other project or some new research, but an overall decline in the funding has what justification?
 
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sgarg

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@pmaitra, can you give specific examples. The argument cannot be on the basis of a budget number.

If you say a specific project was shut down maliciously, then I am willing to accept your logic.

I have heard several cases in IIT when project is running only as a means of publishing papers in foreign journals so that somebody can use it to find a foreign placement.

It is important to link projects to performance. Why government money should be wasted. Review is very important.

A number of new initiatives are planned for research. DRDO is providing money to universities. People just hang on to a piece of news they do not like while ignoring the good news.
 
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sgarg

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My view (not the government view) is that civilian research should happen mostly in the private sector. India is a capitalist economy in practical terms and it is important to apply capitalist principles. The engine of growth of this country is private industry.
 

smestarz

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totally agree !

i believe you read me correctly in that i wasnt asking for changes, just for the sake of it - i was
just countering another members point of view that a pm doesnt get involved at that ("lower" ) level

i was making the point that if public finances are used and wastage is perceived as happening
then any pm cant claim to be too high up to get involved

and if, yes only if personnel changes are needed , well then it has to be done
but in many cases , as you have said , it is a mater of learning and wastage did not take place .

well if that is so, then obviously no necessity for changes .....hope that clarifies
Kaveri is not half done job, Kaveri is functioning engine but it is not able to reach the required thrust. And that is why GoI wanted to have a tie up with some engine maker to offer the assistance on developing it further, am I wrong?
 

smestarz

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Interesting article

Indigenous Kaveri Engine Clears Flight Tests in Russia

Earlier this year, the Indian Government had admitted that there has been a ten-fold increase in the cost of the indigenous Kaveri engine programme which has been delayed by 15 years. The sanctions imposed by the US and lack of skilled manpower and infrastructure has led to this scenario. In the last two decades, India has spent close to $ 455 million on the development of the Kaveri engine. India had developed the Kaveri engine for its homegrown 'Tejas' Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) but the lack of its thrust deemed it unfit for the fighter aircraft. In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 70-75 Kilo Newton but what the Indian Air Force and others desire is power between 90—95 KN. Hence, India decided to develop production version Kaveri engine on a collaborative basis with Snecma, France.

Thus the engine is working,
Military thrust (throttled): 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)

but IAF wants the Kaveri engine to have a power of 90-95 kN


This is the performance of GE F404 Engine General Electric F404 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner

Thus Kaveri is in a way has better thrust than F404 engine being used on Tejas 1,

GE F414 is
Maximum thrust:
13,000 lbf (57.8 kN) military thrust
22,000 lbf (97.9 kN) with afterburner

Thus this is what has to be achieved.

Please note that SNECMA might not part with its knowledge about engines as then it might lose a big chunk of business, so our hope is Russia or maybe Eurojet
 

smestarz

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INTERESTING ARTICLE A YEAR OLD

Saurav Jha's Blog : An 'engine' for India's growth

As India and China build their respective aerospace industries, the one glaring gap remains their inability to mass produce wholly indigenous modern aircraft engines. It is that one major area where both countries remain dependent on foreign support to varying degrees. In the next few years, India however has the potential to create a major domestic industrial and technological base in the arena of aero-propulsion by leveraging its diverse military aviation purchases.

Clever use of the offsets that will mandatorily follow with most imports will not only allow the domestic aerospace industry to integrate itself with global supply chains but should also facilitate the timely transfer of technology in critical areas. In this context, the Ministry Of Defence (MoD) must act ruthlessly by not allowing foreign majors to offload yesterday's technology. Nothing should however stop heightened domestic research and development (R&D) in propulsion technology as that is the best guarantee to hold foreign companies to their promises as it were.

According to estimates, India's aero-engine market alone (summing over various acquisition and upgrade programs) will amount to at least 15 billion dollars for the next ten years. Since a lot of this will be met via imports a very large offset opportunity exists for India's emerging aerospace industry in this domain. These opportunities span the entire spectrum from supplying engine components to providing maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) services.

In fact MRO related expenses can often exceed the initial procurement cost of an engine. Maintenance which includes dismantling, inspecting, assembling and testing aircraft engines is however the single largest MRO segment. Engine Maintenance constitutes 35 percent of the overall cost of maintaining an aircraft. More than two thirds of engine maintenance is taken up by the cost of materials, with labour accounting for another 22 percent. India's MRO segment is expected to grow to 3 billion dollars by 2020.

Now, aero engine components that are likely to be sourced domestically include casings, blisks, shafts, housings, stators, pump housing bushing, sleeves and sub-assays. This would mean that there will be ample business for existing tier-2 and tier-3 players. The tier-3 segment in particular (theoretically any company which has some casting and forging capability and can build fasteners, bearings, wiring harness and machine structural sheet metal can become a tier-3 supplier) is likely to see a major influx of new companies.

However getting these potential suppliers many of whom are small firms to conform to aerospace standards will require a degree of handholding from the sourcing firms and the government. In that sense the emerging aerospace special economic zones (SEZs) in Peninsular India are likely to play an important role.

Tier-2 players i.e those who will build engine hydraulic systems, electrical power systems etc will of course also be subject to competition from new entrants. For instance, Wipro Infrastructure Engineering has in place an agreement with Spanish company CESA (Compania Espanola de Sistemas Aeronauticos SA), a subsidiary of the global aerospace and defence corporation, EADS, for the manufacture of precision engineering components including hydraulics.

Ultimately however a lot of the business is likely to emanate from sub-contracts issued by India's only existing end to end company in the aerospace business - Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). HAL is also the only real Indian tier-1 player in the domain of aero-engines. And HAL, whose engine division has a long history of license producing various imported designs, is set to be by far the biggest beneficiary of the acquisition push.

Currently HAL is building engines under transfer of technology for all aircraft acquired from Russia in the recent past like the AL-31 FP for the India's Air force's Su 30MKI and the RD-33 MK for the Indian Navy's Mig 29K.

Further cementing its tier-1 status in the engine space in India, HAL has also been entering into key joint venture partnerships in this domain since the nineties. The most recent of these is International Aerospace Manufacturing Limited (IAML), a 50-50 joint venture between HAL and Rolls-Royce which inaugurated a Rs 135 crore production facility in Bangalore last year.

The unit, with a strength of about 100, incorporates Rolls Royce's newest manufacturing techniques for making aero-engine components and some 130 different compressor parts for the company's Trent family of civil aero engines, as well as for a number of other marine and energy gas turbines. IAML is starting with a vendor base of about 225 small and medium enterprises vendors and this is expected to rise quickly over the next decade.

The Bangalore facility is also likely to help Rolls Royce discharge offset obligations that will arise out of the supply of the IAF's Hawk advanced jet trainer's Adour Mk871 engine and the C-130J's Royce AE 2100D3 engines.

Meanwhile, Honeywell was issued a request for proposal (RFP) by the IAF in 2012 to completely re-engine 125 Jaguars and provide 270 F-125IN turbofan engines.

After Rolls Royce pulled out from the Jaguar re-engining tender, the IAF was allowed to take things forward with Honeywell on a single vendor basis and it seems that the aforementioned deal valued at around 800 billion dollars is likely to go through. Once again, HAL will use its existing JV with Honeywell to garner a share of the offsets from this deal.

HAL's engine division has also been executing component orders for other American tier-I suppliers like Pratt & Whitney (P&W). P&W sources components for rotating and static engines from HAL Koraput and could ride this existing agreement for discharging any offset obligations arising out of the supply of F117-PW-100 engines as a part of the Boeing C-17 purchase by the IAF. GE may look to do the same for its own extant offset obligations given that it is now the beneficiary of a 558 million dollar contract for supplying 99 F414-INS6 engines to power the LCA Mk-2.

The contract also has the option for another 100 engines in the future. HAL and GE have an evolving relationship in the components space since 2009 and it would be interesting to see if the F414 like the Adour Mk 811 for the Hawk is produced in India. In any case GE's technology transfer proposition made under the offset obligations for the contract will also be interesting to see.

It could be that HAL's Shakti engine experience with Turbomeca (part of Safran) is providing the template at some level for these JVs wherein HAL has increasingly moved towards full assembly of engines and even limited co-development. The Shakti engine which powers the HAL Dhruv, HAL Rudra and will also power the HAL Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is an up-rated version of the Turbomeca Ardiden and was developed under the aegis of a HAL-Turbomeca joint venture.

HAL's tie-up with Safran also includes Snecma HAL Aerospace Pvt. Ltd. (SHAe), based in Bangalore which manufactures high-tech components for aircraft engines.

However not everything is hunky dory between HAL and Safran. In November 2012, HAL looked at commercial bids for 240 engines (plus another 240 as offsets) for the Light utility helicopter (LUH) program. The international tender had followed the breakdown of talks between Turbomeca and HAL when the former had asked for a rather high fee to convert the existing Shakti engine for use in the LUH forcing HAL to float a global tender. Turbomeca however emerged as the lowest cost bidder while LHTEC, the joint venture between Honeywell and Rolls-Royce, offered the CTS800 at a cost 33 percent higher than Turbomeca's bid.

The fact that HAL can now effectively re-negotiate for better deals is also indicative of the fact that the Indian aerospace sector now has more options than it did in the wake of 1998 Pokhran tests. Early in 2013 the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), DRDO's jet engine design laboratory, revealed that the MoD had discontinued discussions with Snecma on bringing it as a partner for improving GTRE's GTX-35VS Kaveri engine. Although de-linked from the Tejas program, India needs to keep building on the Kaveri program for newer programs like the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project.

Given the specifications of the AMCA a much higher thrust engine than the designed output of the Kaveri will be required for the AMCA even though it is envisioned as a twin engine aircraft. Accordingly, tender documents show that GTRE's next turbofan is in the 110 KN wet and 75 KN dry thrust category. An engine of this capability will certainly require GTRE to master single crystal blade(SCB) technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt. The Kaveri currently uses directionally solidified blade technology and neither that nor even first generation SCBs which can now be fashioned in India will suffice for the new engine. Snecma far from agreeing to transfer any relevant technologies was instead offering that the Kaveri's Kabini core be replaced by a Snecma ECO core which is the heart of the Snecma M88 that powers the Dassault Rafale.

While the Kaveri project has been the subject of much derision by various quarters, the fact remains that it has strengthened India's hand enough in the turbofan space to resist being a dumping ground for yesterday's technology. A lot of the delays in the development of the Kaveri project can also be attributed to the fact that India's industrial base has only now come up to speed to provide the necessary components for prototyping complex devices like modern low bypass turbofans. All the new activity detailed above however means that engine development can now be speeded up using domestic resources itself and this will naturally make foreign partners more amenable to offering better terms of trade.

In fact it is now time that India move quickly to set up a High Altitude Engine Test Facility at the earliest to reduce India's dependence on Russia's Glomov Flight Research Institute (GFRI) and expedite the process of development. It is also time to integrate the Kaveri as it exists onto one of the Tejas demonstrators because it is only when an engine actually flies in the relevant aircraft that designers gets the best feedback about the design. There is simply no short cut in this matter.

Even as India moves forward with domestic R&D, all eyes will be on the engine related offsets that flow from the mother of all aircraft acquisition programs - the MMRCA contract. The MoD, the IAF and DRDO must ensure that Snecma is not allowed to manoeuvre around technology transfer obligations this time over as it has tried to do for the Kaveri improvement contract. In fact given the massive order that Snecma will get from the MMRCA contract it in any case makes no sense to bring it in separately for improving the Kaveri. The MMRCA contract itself if it indeed comes to pass this year should give GTRE and HAL what they need by way of next generation engine technology.
 

roma

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even though dissatisfaction was shown by pm in august, so in that sense everyone knew something
was brewing ......nevertheless DM showed signs
of surprise at the actual timing of the event when told by reporters that it had already occurred.

i am aware the notice of the event was on the defense ministry website .

- i have no way of proving this unless i go for a thorough internet search - dont have time for that
neither do i have the desire to prove it as i do prefer the present government and other than one or two
decisions where i might disagree i hold out the possibility that it is i who could be incorrect

if you like ask around this forum - people you trust
It's a dead topic as far as im concerned and im done with it ...
- a good gov put a good man out
i feel sorry for both, the way it was done .
regards,
r & nathan .


Interesting article

Indigenous Kaveri Engine Clears Flight Tests in Russia

Earlier this year, the Indian Government had admitted that there has been a ten-fold increase in the cost of the indigenous Kaveri engine programme which has been delayed by 15 years. The sanctions imposed by the US and lack of skilled manpower and infrastructure has led to this scenario. In the last two decades, India has spent close to $ 455 million on the development of the Kaveri engine. India had developed the Kaveri engine for its homegrown 'Tejas' Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) but the lack of its thrust deemed it unfit for the fighter aircraft. In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 70-75 Kilo Newton but what the Indian Air Force and others desire is power between 90—95 KN. Hence, India decided to develop production version Kaveri engine on a collaborative basis with Snecma, France.

Thus the engine is working,
Military thrust (throttled): 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)

but IAF wants the Kaveri engine to have a power of 90-95 kN


This is the performance of GE F404 Engine General Electric F404 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner

Thus Kaveri is in a way has better thrust than F404 engine being used on Tejas 1,

GE F414 is
Maximum thrust:
13,000 lbf (57.8 kN) military thrust
22,000 lbf (97.9 kN) with afterburner

Thus this is what has to be achieved.

Please note that SNECMA might not part with its knowledge about engines as then it might lose a big chunk of business, so our hope is Russia or maybe Eurojet
can you therefore help me answer the other question i had asked ?
which is , at this stage of development of the K engine, are we therefore ahead of china ?
most grateful for your or others' replies

invite comments from :-
@Ray @LETHALFORCE @sorcerer @Kunal @sgarg @pmaitra @Singh @ersakthivel @sayareakd
 
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sgarg

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We need all components of the machine - DRDO, OFB, PSUs, and private companies to work well and work together to deliver the military readiness.

The challenge is big. China has crossed the critical mass and is now raising its military potential very fast. India does not want to be in a situation when it is caught by surprise.

The only way for India is to increase its military production in a sustained and significant manner.

All must trust and support the government in this.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Yes we are, Kaveri engine is pure home design, Their is alot of knowledge gained thought this project unlike China which strives on reverse engineering ..

But where kaveri is in peril is lack of commitment by IAF and inter-conflict within DRDO departments, This is all due to lack of proper administration from Government side, In practice, making world class turbine research and manufacturing infrastructures is far from reality ..

Thanks to corruption and anti-national & Self interest elements withing Gov sectors and within Government of past ..

can you therefore help me answer the other question i had asked ?
which is , at this stage of development of the K engine, are we therefore ahead of china ?
most grateful for your or others' replies

invite comments from :-
@Ray @LETHALFORCE @sorcerer @Kunal @sgarg @pmaitra @Singh @ersakthivel @sayareakd
 
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akshay m

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we may see a three engined shukhoi soon????????????



Read more at: Sukhoi for Bengaluru? DRDO hunts for a supersonic Flying Test Bed - Oneindia
The current requirement for a supersonic FTB is being explored for the primary use of Gas Turbine and Research Establishment (GTRE). Although GTRE's capabilities in developing a desi power plant for Light Combat Aircraft Tejas have run into a rough patch, efforts are being made to carry forward the technical expertise for other engine programmes. Sukhoi is being tipped as the best choice with a price tag of around Rs 400 crore. DRDO officials are of the opinion that with HAL's MiG Complex in Nashik already rolling out, they have the advantage of making the modifications with less fuzz. "It's a huge process to make modifications if the aircraft is imported from abroad. We have to save time and money and Sukhoi could be the answer. Even certification too becomes easier in India," an official said.

Read more at: Sukhoi for Bengaluru? DRDO hunts for a supersonic Flying Test Bed - Oneindia
DRDO officials say that the modification work on Sukhoi done for launching the air version of BrahMos will come handy for DRDO. "The BrahMos missile weighs around 2.5 tonnes while a Kaveri engine is around 1.22 tonnes. There are two pilots in a Su-30 MKI and one can easily monitor the engine and independently operate it," the official said.

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/sukho...for-a-supersonic-flying-test-bed-1685485.html
 
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