p2prada
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Nope. They will be second. L&T is our first full fledged private defence company. Making Nuclear submarines isn't just for anybody.
INSAS Indian Small Arms System
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gogbot
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Yes, but TATA and Mahindra can come out with everything from light tactical transports., to radar and Helicopters.
L&T is limited in that regard. It may be our first defense company.
but i think TATA and Mahindra can offer more.
mehrotraprince
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It is too early to comment, since development of any project (Aircraft, Tank, Guns etc) need several round of trials, so need time to develop.
So one possibility could be that Indian Army wants to replace INSAS with better assault rifle through export in order to save those precious time,
and other possibility could be that DRDO is working on future assault rifle.
So one possibility could be that Indian Army wants to replace INSAS with better assault rifle through export in order to save those precious time,
and other possibility could be that DRDO is working on future assault rifle.
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I would like to direct you all to an in-depth piece by someone who has actually examined the rifle, without poignantly extolling its virtues:
Last week I was given an opportunity to fiddle and inspect a bunch of INSAS rifles in detail by the local police.
I thought it'd be a good opportunity to dissect the INSAS and dispel some myths and misconceptions about it.
So with the two line preamble, I take great pleasure in presenting to the gun community a modest Technical Treatise of the INSAS Rifle 5.56mm 1B1 The specimen in this study was factory fresh and manufactured by the R.F.I (Rifle Factory Ishapore), West Bengal.
To start with, we shall touch up a bit on its pedigree. Common misconceptions of the INSAS's origins and designs range from it being a Galil clone to a hotch-potch of the FAL, M-16, AK & G3... none of these are in-fact entirely accurate.
The evolution of the INSAS, in fact, closely follows the development of FN 5.56mm Rifles/Carbines with an added Kalashnikov flavor to aid cheap and mass production.
I think one can clearly see why the notion of an FAL gas system clone appeared and stuck on. The early developmental versions of the INSAS sported a gas block and fore sight assembly very similar to the FAL and the SLR1A. The Gas plug design is a common to all. However one should remember that the ill fated FN CAL 5.56mm Rifle was a developmental design that included numerous design features from the FAL. Thus in relation to the scale involved (7.62mm to 5.56mm), the more obvious conclusion would be that the early to mid developmental INSAS rifles borrowed the Gas block/plug/Fore sight assembly from the FN CAL...and not the FAL. The picture below, which I cobbled together, was sourced from various net sources- you can see the obvious relations.
However, since then, they incorporated a few changes, most probably (as I see) with a view to simplify manufacture. The current FNC is essentially a very simplified FN CAL, with improvements and design elements altered to suit quick and less expensive manufacture. The gas block & fore sight assembly was simplified to be made from simple forgings or investment castings with the minimum possible machining operations. The current production INSAS 1B1 sports a virtual 100% clone of the assembly. Take a look at the picture below for a comparison of the FNC and the INSAS... also note the general similarity of the entire fore end and the muzzle piece.
The FNC in the above picture is a civilian version with no grenade launching facility or a bayonet lug. Below is a comparison of the muzzle end of the standard military FNC and the INSAS IB1. Note the identical NATO standard 22mm diameter muzzle brakes and grenade launching split rings on both the guns. This seems to be an entirely export oriented feature on the INSAS as I'm not aware of the Indian Army using rifle grenades of this type. The muzzle brake with a radial series of 3 circular ports is common to the INSAS, FNC the CAL and the FAL...
The gas blockage for grenade launching is achieved by rotating a sheet metal bracket/latch that folds away behind the fore sight post. This is called an "Alidade". Rotation is approximately 90 degrees. This is identical in the FNC and the INSAS. The one on the INSAS is made of a very flimsy half mm sheet... it's actually flimsy enough to deform slightly every time you rotate it. The pictures below illustrate the Alidade in both positions.
The top edge of the Alidade has a "v"notch that becomes visible when it is raised to the gas-blocked (grenade launching) position. This can be aligned with a 'foresight' bead on the grenade to 'aim' the projectile. The picture below illustrates the V notch.
The Immediate area behind the Gas block & Fore-sight assembly houses a gas regulator (Circled area in image below) It operated in the same way the FNC does but the lug and locking plunger has been shifted to the front. In the FNC this is in an extension of the breech trunnion just above the chamber. It has two positions Low and High. Default setting is Low.(11'oclock as in the picture below)
It is commonly believed that the cocking/charging handle of the INSAS is a copy of the H&K G3/HK33/53 series of rifles. The H&K influence goes only as far as the positioning of the cocking handle - i.e. Ahead of the breech, left side 11 o'clock position with the muzzle away from you. In execution, the design is a virtual lift of the charging handle assembly of the 7.62mm SLR 1A. This has been achieved by extending the AKM type trunnion about 4 inches forward. The 'T'-slots for the cocking slide is machined on to this trunnion extension. In my opinion this seems to have complicated the manufacturing process because of the added machining operations. Also you cannot rotate the cocking handle to lock back like in the H&K rifles. In its rear most position the slide interferes with the opening and closing of the pivoted receiver cover. The picture below illustrates the relationship between the three rifles types.
Moving on rearward to the mid section of the INSAS, one can see an unmistakable AKM/Kalashnikov influence. The receiver is of pressed sheet metal of approximately 1mm thickness. It follows the traditional boxy AKM type receiver design with the prominent dimple over the magazine well. The dimple on the INSAS is more angular than that of the AKM. Below is the right hand side of the receiver. With a prominent SLR type carrying handle that's redundant and hardly ever used. Personally, I think this feature is a useless money sink in a 5.56mm rifle. Also missing in the INSAS is the large AK type selector lever. This has been substituted by a virtual clone of the FNC selector lever on the left side of the receiver.
...Continued...
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-Part II-
Unlike the 7.62mm SLR-1A, the carrying handle in the INSAS is an elaborate spring tensioned type. This greatly increases the number of parts and machining operations for a part that's next to being a useless appendage. See the image below.
Below is a picture of the left side of the receiver. Also note how crude the lettering is- looks to be scratched on by hand!!
The primary difference in the receiver design is with the trigger axis hump in the INSAS. The Trigger mechanism is a virtual copy of the FNC. That being said, the FNC mechanism is very loosely based on that of the Kalashnikov. The FNC trigger mechanism design necessitates a lower trigger axis and thus a greater depth of the receiver. This would however have resulted in an awkwardly bulky receiver. The downward hump probably resulted from this need. The picture below gives an idea of the receiver design and the position of the trigger axis of the three rifles.
The INSAS 1B1 has three modes- Safe, Semi and 3round Burst. The selector lever is identical in position to that of the FNC and is a well though out adaptation on an AKM type receiver. The design of the thumb piece is based more on the SLR design rather than that of the FNC. However, it is still not as ergonomic as planned and unless you have thumbs like E.T., you'll need relinquish your firm hold on the grip to actuate the selector. Very similar to the SLR, the safety position is top most, down about 30 degrees and you have semi, then to activate the tri-burst mechanism you'll need to rotate it almost 180 degrees. Take a look at the image below.
The three round burst mechanism is a sheet metal encased module that sits on the left side of the trigger/sear shoulder. It works by way of a ratchet and pawl lock-work. It is a vitual clone of the FNC/CAL module and at least in theory, independent of the basic functioning of the trigger mechanism. i.e. in case it buggers up, semi will continue functioning. The red circle in the picture below shows the 3 round burst module.
The rear sights on the INSAS are a generic two position peep type with windage adjustment. This is housed in an investment cast cradle with typical rounded protective ears. The windage adjustment is effected by a knurled windage knob one the left side, and is held in position by a spring loaded plunger on the bottom. A short 3 inch dovetail rail on the top of the receiver ahead of the rear sight assembly serves as a 0.5" interface for mounting scopes and other optical sights. The images below show a detail view of the rear sight assembly.
Also note that unlike the AKMs the INSAS makes extensive usage of rivets. The inner receiver rails(race ways for the bolt) are also riveted on rather than spot welded.
Field stripping is very similar to AK, albeit ,with some needless complications....no doubt adding to the cost of the rifle. Like any other weapon, ensure that it is indeed empty and there is no round chambered and that the magazine is removed. Cycle the action and visually eyeball the chamber. The cycling action is very scratchy and uneven. Many specimens bind for no apparent reason while manually cycling the action.
The blue circle in the picture below shows the standard AK type receiver cover locking stud. But you can't simply operate it like a normal AK... you'll have to first press the lock out button (red circle) which is usually very badly fitted and stiff. You'll be able to get the AK type stud moving only when you do so. I can't think of any reason why this unnecessary feature was included....another money sink. Also note in this and earlier pictures, the re-enforcing cap in the rear end of the receiver cover. This is usually a very poorly formed and fitted piece.
Once you've got through hurdle of the locking stud, simply lift the cover. It is captive (i.e. remains on the gun) and pivots upwards like the AK74U. The receiver cover attached to the pivot by a pair of rivets and this joint may be critical to the long term accuracy of the rifle as the rear sights are mounted on the receiver cover. Often this is badly fitted, often bearing on the trunnion locking shoulder. This either results in bent receiver covers or big gaps in the area.
See picture below and take note of the poor plastic to metal fit.
Once you've done this push the recoil spring guide rod forward, up and rearward. Then pull back and up, the bolt carrier/ piston assembly.
...Continued...
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-Part III-
From: 'cottagecheese' of IFG.
This is probably the most illuminating piece on the INSAS you will ever read. Temper your judgment.
The bolt carrier and bolt is an AK clone scaled to suit the 5.56mm cartridge take a look at the picture below.
Next, you remove the upper hand guard. This is a flimsy piece of plastic this is always getting lost or breaking in two. The front end has 'PULL' embossed on it and you simply grasp the projections on the front end and ...well...pull.
It has two pairs of rounded steel spring tongues that simply clamp over the gas tube. Its either too tight ot too loose... both with individual headaches - too tight and the plastic usually breaks, too loose, it usually gets lost or rattles and dances all over the place.
Once this is out of the way and hopefully you haven't broken the hand guard, you now prepare to remove the gas cylinder. The short gas cylinder is retained in the trunnion extension by a very AK flavored latch... which is often too tight. Many rifles have poorly fitted gas cylinders that really prevents the half-cut cross pin and thus prevents the locking latch from closing smoothly. I saw five brand new broken examples. One was missing the latch.
Above- The gas tube retaining latch in open position. Note that the Lower hand guard is a direct lift of the CAL/FNC design albeit with an AKM type retaining interface.
Below- The gas tube removed.
Now you've stripped the blasted gun!
Here's the INSAS with its basic complement of three magazines. 20x3=60 rounds.
A pair of Steyr AUG inspired waffle ribbed transparent magazines.
My camera doesn't have decent macro...so I couldn't photograph the cartridge head stamps. Anyway the fodder below is KF 5.56mm....
Here's how the magazines come packed from the factory.
I noted at least three different manufacturers of INSAS magazines, and goodness are they flimsy.
There were several INSAS rifles made by SAF(Small Arms Factory) Kanpur- They exhibited several badly fitted parts.
Take a look at the picture below. The upper one is and RFI made INSAS and the one in the bottom is and SAF specimen. The RFI rifles appear to be zinc phosphated as they sport a very light grey finish while SAF INSAS rifles are darker and presumably iron or manganese phosphate finish. Take note of the white splotches on the SAF rifle- I noticed all the SAF rifles had these. I found out that they wanted to have white paint filled lettering, but the crude scratching that passed off as lettering was too shallow and the lazy buggers at the factory simply squished some white enamel over the general areas and didn't even bother to wipe off the excess!!
Over all the INSAS rifle is a major disappointment and while this study is purely academic and has no bearing on the end user, I think it's all I've been calling it all these years- An over weight, complicated, over priced, mediocre rifle.
In the end it shoots- fairly accurately and with reasonable reliability but its plagued by shitty quality and needless refinements of dubious value.
Bottom line - we could have done so much better.
For the shooting report- Check the threads that carry Jonah and Devs reports.
regards,
CC
From: 'cottagecheese' of IFG.
This is probably the most illuminating piece on the INSAS you will ever read. Temper your judgment.
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Bring something to the discussion other than rants.
plugwater
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Indian army wants INSAS series of rifles replaced
New Delhi, May 25 (PTI) Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an "urgent need" to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured INSAS series of rifles.
"There is an urgent need to develop rifles, carbines and light machine guns of 5.56mm calibre to replace the existing INSAS class of weapons," it said in the Defence Ministry?s ?Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap? document.
The INSAS rifles, designed by the DRDO, were inducted into the Armed forces in the 90s and have been used in the Kargil war and counter-insurgency operations also.
In its early days with the Army, the rifles faced reliability problems in the cold climate in places such as Kashmir valley and Siachen glacier.
Due to the cold weather, the rifles would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.These problems were later corrected by the manufacturers.
http://www.ptinews.com/news/666881_Army-wants-INSAS-rifles-replaced
New Delhi, May 25 (PTI) Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an "urgent need" to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured INSAS series of rifles.
"There is an urgent need to develop rifles, carbines and light machine guns of 5.56mm calibre to replace the existing INSAS class of weapons," it said in the Defence Ministry?s ?Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap? document.
The INSAS rifles, designed by the DRDO, were inducted into the Armed forces in the 90s and have been used in the Kargil war and counter-insurgency operations also.
In its early days with the Army, the rifles faced reliability problems in the cold climate in places such as Kashmir valley and Siachen glacier.
Due to the cold weather, the rifles would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.These problems were later corrected by the manufacturers.
http://www.ptinews.com/news/666881_Army-wants-INSAS-rifles-replaced
bhramos
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Indian Army wants INSAS rifles replaced urgently
Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an "urgent need" to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured INSAS series of rifles.
"There is an urgent need to develop rifles, carbines and light machine guns of 5.56mm calibre to replace the existing INSAS class of weapons," it said in the Defence Ministry's 'Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap' document.
The INSAS rifles, designed by the DRDO, were inducted into the Armed forces in the 90s and have been used in the Kargil war and counter-insurgency operations also.
In its early days with the Army, the rifles faced reliability problems in the cold climate in places such as Kashmir valley and Siachen glacier.
Due to the cold weather, the rifles would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.These problems were later corrected by the manufacturers.
To do away with the problems posed by the indigenous rifles, Army wants that "the hall mark of new weapons should be reliability, robustness, night firing capabilities and modular cum inter changeable parts.
In the document, the Army states that the weapons would be of little use unless supported by compatible and indigenously manufactured ammunition.It also wants to develop a 5.56 mm Medium Machine Gun (MMG) to be developed for its troops.
The Army is working on the F-INSAS project, under which it wants troops to be equipped with equipment such as safe and effective grenades, surveillance and night vision devices, personal protection suites and providing net connectivity to soldiers.
These are more than six different rifles of the INSAS series, which were also exported to Nepal and Oman.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Army-wants-INSAS-rifles-replaced/H1-Article1-548220.aspx
Gearing up its soldiers for future warfare, the Indian Army feels there is an "urgent need" to replace the indigenously developed and manufactured INSAS series of rifles.
"There is an urgent need to develop rifles, carbines and light machine guns of 5.56mm calibre to replace the existing INSAS class of weapons," it said in the Defence Ministry's 'Technology Perspective and Capability Roadmap' document.
The INSAS rifles, designed by the DRDO, were inducted into the Armed forces in the 90s and have been used in the Kargil war and counter-insurgency operations also.
In its early days with the Army, the rifles faced reliability problems in the cold climate in places such as Kashmir valley and Siachen glacier.
Due to the cold weather, the rifles would jam occasionally and the polymer magazines would crack.These problems were later corrected by the manufacturers.
To do away with the problems posed by the indigenous rifles, Army wants that "the hall mark of new weapons should be reliability, robustness, night firing capabilities and modular cum inter changeable parts.
In the document, the Army states that the weapons would be of little use unless supported by compatible and indigenously manufactured ammunition.It also wants to develop a 5.56 mm Medium Machine Gun (MMG) to be developed for its troops.
The Army is working on the F-INSAS project, under which it wants troops to be equipped with equipment such as safe and effective grenades, surveillance and night vision devices, personal protection suites and providing net connectivity to soldiers.
These are more than six different rifles of the INSAS series, which were also exported to Nepal and Oman.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Army-wants-INSAS-rifles-replaced/H1-Article1-548220.aspx
Tamil_Canuck
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I agree Tavor is very expensive especially for a huge army like the Indian army, I think India should get a license copy for M4 or even Canadian C8 and produce it locally could even use cheaper material.
or Carbine version of AK series.
gogbot
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Rahul Singh
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.303 rifle.when my father was in IMA , he was warned about the possible malfunction of INSAS rifle( the phenomenon was called "chalti ,rookti ") , they even suggested how to overcome such situation.
and about the ammunition , i believe that most of the gun battle IA soldiers are fighting are with terrorist ,they do not care if one of their commrades are injured ,so maybe thats why IA is asking for larger calibre weapon
and about the ammunition , i believe that most of the gun battle IA soldiers are fighting are with terrorist ,they do not care if one of their commrades are injured ,so maybe thats why IA is asking for larger calibre weapon
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Insas is a excellent rifle, I have used it many time and i never got any complains..
But Insas replacement can only be Insas, Perhaps a new bullpup variant..
But Insas replacement can only be Insas, Perhaps a new bullpup variant..
so why is IA asking for replacement ? is weight an issue ?
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