Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by SHASH2K2, Apr 12, 2011.

  1. SHASH2K2

    SHASH2K2 New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,711
    Likes Received:
    723
    Location:
    Bihar, BanGalore , India
    Women in face veils detained as France enforces ban



    At least two women have been briefly detained in France while wearing Islamic veils, after a law banning the garment in public came into force.
    Police said they were held not because of their veils but for joining an unauthorised protest, and they were later released.
    France is the first country in Europe to publicly ban a form of dress some Muslims regard as a religious duty.
    Offenders face a fine of 150 euros (£133; $217) and a citizenship course.
    People forcing women to wear the veil face a much larger fine and a prison sentence of up to two years.
    The two women detained had taken part in a demonstration outside Notre Dame cathedral in Paris. Police said the protest had not been authorised and so people were asked to move on. When they did not, they were arrested.


    One of the women, Kenza Drider, had arrived in Paris from the southern city of Avignon, boarding a train wearing a niqab, and unchallenged by police.
    "We were held for three and a half hours at the police station while the prosecutors decided what to do," she told AFP news agency.
    "Three and a half hours later they told us: 'It's fine, you can go'."
    Under the law, any woman - French or foreign - walking on the street or in a park in France and wearing a face-concealing veil such as the niqab or burka can be stopped by police and given a fine.
    It is a small fine, but symbolically this is a huge change, says the BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris.
    Guidelines issued to police say they should not ask women to remove their veils in the street, but should escort them to a police station where they would be asked to uncover their faces for identification.
    The French government says the face-covering veil undermines the basic standards required for living in a shared society and also relegates its wearers to an inferior status incompatible with French notions of equality.
    The ban on face coverings - which does not explicitly mention Islamic veils, but exempts various other forms - has angered some Muslims and libertarians.


    A French Muslim property dealer, Rachid Nekkaz, said he was creating a fund to pay women's fines, and encouraged "all free women who so wish to wear the veil in the street and engage in civil disobedience".
    Mr Nekkaz said he and "a female friend wearing the niqab" were arrested at a separate demonstration in front of President Nicolas Sarkozy's Elysee Palace.
    "We wanted to be fined for wearing the niqab, but the police didn't want to issue a fine," he told AFP.
    But opposition protests by Islamists and libertarians are unlikely to make much of an impression, our correspondent says.
    What is more open to question, he says, is whether an out-and-out legal ban is necessary when, on most estimates, only 2,000-or-so women in France actually wear the niqab or burka.
    Critics of French President Nicolas Sarkozy say it suits him to play up the Muslim question because he is an unpopular president in need of an easy vote-winner.
     
  2.  
  3. AOE

    AOE Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    23
    I think it's understandable to ban anything that covers the face, including those in the islamic faith. Would you allow someone into a bank with a balaclava? Would you trust someone who walks around in the street, or into a shop, or around in public with the same item of clothing? I wouldn't think so.
     
  4. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    8,120
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Location:
    Bangalore, India
    I don't know if wearing face veils is a must in Islam and OR is quoted in the Quran or in the Hadith's. Members with adequate knowledge can point it out. But if you have the freedom to see other people, they too should have the same freedom to see who they deal with in day to day life. This is a concept prevailing from the medieval world and has no place in today's society. Wherever one lives, integration with the society is a must, and for that dropping age old customs is a necessary evil - even if it is being quoted in the Quran or in the Hadith's.
     
  5. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,317
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Location:
    Hyderabad
    We in India do, and it's turned out pretty fine so far. I think the new French law has little to do with the security risks of people with veiled faces. It's more to do with social ethics. I hope France really knows what it's getting itself into. It could attract attention of terrorists, and that will inturn have a cascading effect on treatment meted out to moderate Muslims in France.
     
  6. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    Muslims in France have divided opinion over this. Some oppose it and some support it.

    One would argue that they didn't ask others to be free show like that and that its upto the inidivdual. Yet I feel these things should come from your own gray matter, as to what you want to wear and why. Nothing should dictate that (even if it is Kuran). Change is the only constant, a healthy religion accomodates change.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
  7. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    8,120
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Location:
    Bangalore, India
    /\/\/\ Security is the biggest issue in here when we talk about face-viels/hijab or burkha.
     
  8. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    Somehow it hasn't been a big threat in India.
     
  9. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    8,120
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Location:
    Bangalore, India
    You're going off-topic. We are talking about France right? Muslims who have been living in France for decades have integrated with the society there and are progressive. They speak French, eat French and do not wear Hijab etc. Problem is with refugees and Asylum seekers from countries like Somalia, Pakistan etc who seek citizenship in the West. They come from a background where rituals, rites and killings are a everyday show. They come from countries which tops the list of failed states index. One more example would be Albanians. I'll let you do a google on that list.

    During the Mumbai blasts in 1993, some terrorists were in Burkhas doing a recce & planting bombs in Mumbai.

    Everybody has the right to do whatever he/she wants and OR wear whatever he/she wants. But when it comes to National Security, people should be willing to co-operate. It is the State they belong to after all and have certain responsibilities as a citizen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2011
  10. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Messages:
    21,001
    Likes Received:
    11,842
    Location:
    Akhand Bharat
    Head scarf is ok but burka is big no no..........
     
  11. AOE

    AOE Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    437
    Likes Received:
    23
    It has to do with a range of issues, but yes social ethics play into it as well. Here in the west we require people to show their faces in public for security as well as social reasons. I don't think that requires further explanation. As for France banning it, well I would think it is about time that Europeans grew a spine and banned these symbols of religious oppression. Kudos to the French for being some of the first.
     
  12. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    If I'm not going OT again, there was a swiss ban to minarets couple months back. It was done by a resolution where people voted in favor of it.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
  13. Phenom

    Phenom Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    878
    Likes Received:
    401
    Govt should not tell people what to wear and what not to wear.

    This is no different from groups in India who want to stop girls from wearing mini-skirts.
     
  14. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,317
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Location:
    Hyderabad
    But what about women who choose to wear it? Why infringe upon their liberty to cover, when others are at liberty to bare?

    Why should non-Muslims be the ones to decide what's "religious oppression" and "religious practice"?

    Again, the law France passed has nothing in fineprint to show that security threats were behind the veil ban. The law in its current form is draconian and is a steaming pile of shit.
     
  15. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    Rights of liberty and national security have to go hand in hand. You cannot have a one sided dictum here.
    If you say I'm a part of this country and I should be protected, then you have to follow some rules to help everyone (including you) be safer.

    That said, there has to be some consensus and such bans should be bought in after much debate in the senate and the society. Otherwise, rifts and misunderstandings. The multi cultural society looses its color then.


    Regards,
    Virendra
     
  16. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,317
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Location:
    Hyderabad
    Once again, security has NOTHING to do with the veil ban in France.
     
  17. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    8,120
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Location:
    Bangalore, India
    What is it for then? Is it Islamophobia?
     
  18. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,317
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Location:
    Hyderabad
    Go read the fineprint yourself. The rationale behind the ban does not mention security issues anywhere.
     
  19. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    4,674
    Likes Received:
    2,923
    Location:
    Delhi, India, India
    No, the question of social ethics and cultural integration of migrants with the native (French) way of life. Am I right Tarun?

    Though may be not in this context, still we cannot put security out of the way. It does deserve consideration.


    Regards,
    Virendra
     
  20. tarunraju

    tarunraju Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,317
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Location:
    Hyderabad
    In principle, yes. Though the reasoning is flawed. It does not provide provisions to people who voluntarily choose to wear the veil as part of religious practice.

    If you apply the very same reasons the French gave to ban the veil, Christian nuns and clergy should give up their attire.
     
  21. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2010
    Messages:
    8,120
    Likes Received:
    1,541
    Location:
    Bangalore, India
    Why would French pass a law in which it explicitly states 'This ban is only for Muslims and for the insecurity French people have towards people who migrate to France and do not integrate with the society and are seen in clothes that covers them from head to toe'? That would be racism, is not it?

    The main concern is security and the secondary concern is integration in French society. Read between the lines. It is Islamophobia and it is very much prevalent in the West.


    If you want to live in a state, you have to live by some rules. Sometimes, it's hard, but then you have to accept this for the greater good.

    Exactly. But Nuns and clergy do not cover their face.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2011

Share This Page