Why do British people have such a pathetic attitude ?

[Singh]

Strongly disagree.

This is horrible self flagellation, completely unnecessary and false. It feeds the propaganda that "natives" are savages who needed the benevolence of the Brits for their sustenance.

Those who make this argument talk about railways - now, let us look a little beyond that, shall we?

What have we not been able to "match" in 60 years? The Mumbai skyline with dozens of skyscrapers? The metro rapid transit system in Indian cities like Delhi, Bangalore, Calcutta and soon-to-be Mumbai, Chennai, Pune, Jaipur? The nuclear weapons and the space program? The golden quadrilateral and other highways in India? The elevated expressways in various cities? The ring roads, the automobile boom? The green revolution? Self sufficiency in food production?

Heck, people don't die in the millions in famines anymore in India!!!!

I can go on and on. All this talk about "we not having matched the Brits in 60 years" is typical "Churchillian" talk - let us desist from it, because it is completely false. :bs:

My point was, and let me reiterate, at the time British were so advanced that even an economic superpower like India today too is having a tough time matching their past achievements.

I didn't mean it in a self-deprecating manner.

 

[Ray]

The only thing I can say with total confidence, is that inspite of tribulations and designed insults, the Indian Armed Forces continues to hold British traditions that the Armed Forces are subject to the orders of the civil Govt.

Pakistan and Bangladesh may have forgotten, but not the Indian Armed Forces and we are proud and grateful that the British left us this heritage which we cherish will all our hearts and mind!

 

[Bangalorean]

My point was, and let me reiterate, at the time British were so advanced that even an economic superpower like India today too is having a tough time matching their past achievements.

I didn't mean it in a self-deprecating manner.

Yes - the Brits were an unmatched power in their time, no disputing that. Just like the USA was an unmatched power in the latter half of the 20th century....

 

[trackwhack]

It's one thing to be proud about TATA. and yes , no question it is a fantastic success story. But baffling how you compare Ford to Tata.

Ford is what in the top 3 car sellers in the world. Not everything every company touches turns to gold. Shows a naive understanding of business and the world to somehow claim superiority because a product did better under a different organisation.

Ford had 6.6. billion in just profit made last year. and Revenues 128,954.0( millions). The are ranked 25th Largest company in the WORLD! Tata is not even in the top 500 worldwide.

. Fortune Global 500 2011: The World's Biggest Companies - Ford Motor - F

Jaguar and Land Rover are as exquisite a brand as they come. Ford screwed up. The size of the companies have nothing to do with it. wrt JLR Tata humbled Ford and the clowns in ford who handed over JLR on a platter to TATA must feel real stupid. Dont go off on a tangent about how big ford is. The company is running on fumes and if not for a bailout would have closed shop 2 years back.

6.6 units in profit against 126 units in revenue is a margin of 5%. Yeah really awesome!!!

 

[JayATL]

Sure, and I don't think anyone will claim otherwise. There is no disputing the fact that UK = developed and India = developing.

However, I do not agree that the Brit rule was somehow "beneficial" or "benevolent" towards India.

Regarding India's slow pace of development: for the decades of the 50s and 60s, the after-effects of British colonialism can be held responsible.
For the decades of 70s and 80s, flawed economic policies by India, quasi-socialist policies, can be held responsible.

India has seen real development only in the last decade or two, and the real fun starts now.

I'm not claiming the British rule was beneficial for India. How can freedom being taken away fromany country.be beneficial for anyone. On the other hand , again taking away emotion from it- if you look at the infrastructure itself. India had a huge leg up when the birts left, due to them investing in it. It's like Afghanistan today, when the US leaves , infrastructure will be a huge boost over what was and what they would have done sans US up to today. I'm NOT debating the politics of it, just simple looking at the investment and infrastructure.

India being as vast as it was and divided as it was , from purely an infrastructural view benefited from what was invested. The civilian laws, judicial laws and basic laws of governance borrowed and exposed to , helped it's civilian society tremendously to go forth.

 

[Singh]

Since I have been dragged into this

Indian railways
By 1947, the total expanse of Railways was 55000 km now its 114,000. To say we haven't been able to match them is a fallacy. Also, the whole purpose of the Railway Network was to drain resources from India and transport it to the ports from where it was shipped to England. Furthermore, it was our resources that were used to build the railway network, hardly something to be grateful for.

irrespective, their achievement was spectacular for the time.

law
??
If you're referring to the constitution of India, then it draws more form the US constitution than the British one apart from a Parliamentary form of government.

the common law system

buildings
Nothing we couldn't have achieved on our own. The Mughals themselves were no slouches when it came to architecture, we'd have gotten there sooner or later.

I haven't seen anything as spectacular post independence.

But they're not now. They have no right to condescend to us.

Adding salt to the wounds. I am empathetical towards the Nostalgic Brits who have to live with the ignominy of being a second rate power.

====

I don't disagree with the premise of your post but if you are looking at it objectively and on economic terms . you have UK = developed country and India = developing. The 'numbers' are pretty clear setting aside nationalism, pride and emotion. India is ways away from being at par with UK standard. Your standard of living is much lower, your infrastructure is lower, your civilian services are lower, your social safety networks are much lower, your citizenry live expectancy is much lower....

Our numbers are improving y-o-y, they are in a steady decline. And if you have money in India, you can certainly enjoy all the amenities and luxuries.

 

[nrj]

The civilian laws, judicial laws and basic laws of governance borrowed and exposed to , helped it's civilian society tremendously to go forth.

Its nothing that British invented or did favor by drafting some laws. Nizam/Mughal-era laws were also carried forward by British during their Raj and many Nizam-era laws are still honored & practiced in India today.

 

[JayATL]

Jaguar and Land Rover are as exquisite a brand as they come. Ford screwed up. The size of the companies have nothing to do with it. wrt JLR Tata humbled Ford and the clowns in ford who handed over JLR on a platter to TATA must feel real stupid. Dont go off on a tangent about how big ford is. The company is running on fumes and if not for a bailout would have closed shop 2 years back.

6.6 units in profit against 126 units in revenue is a margin of 5%. Yeah really awesome!!!

Once again you are showing a very narrow understanding of how business is run and a complete lack of facts. Ford was never bailed out, they never took any bail out money, it was GM who did. According to your narrow understanding of business and wins, if TATA sells off one it's assets , and it does well elsewhere. It TATA is quote" Fools who should feel really stupid" .

 

[Bangalorean]

I haven't seen anything as spectacular post independence.

You can't be serious.

Visit any Indian infrastructure/skyscraper forum, and you will change your notion. Though I'm sure you know of all the important buildings/structures developed...

Our numbers are improving y-o-y, they are in a steady decline. And if you have money in India, you can certainly enjoy all the amenities and luxuries.

Yes, this is perfectly right :thumb:

JayATL - a person living a "middle class" existence in India, lives a better life than a Brit living a "middle class" existence in Britain. That's how it is today, when the middle classes are compared. Of course, by "middle class", I am referring to the modern urban Indian, usually young.

 

[The Messiah]

op: op:

 

[trackwhack]

Once again you are showing a very narrow understanding of how business is run and a complete lack of facts. Ford was never bailed out, they never took any bail out money, it was GM who did. According to your narrow understanding of business and wins, if TATA sells off one it's assets , and it does well elsewhere. It TATA is quote" Fools who should feel really stupid" .

You're right about them not accepting government money. They raised money through debt equity swaps - wise. Anyway back to Ford feeling stupid. Tata paid 2.3 billion to Ford for JLR. They have since made consolidated profits of close to 4 billion. Would Ford feel stupid. Of course yes. Why - Because in the last 2 years, Fords net profir is less than 10 billion and much of that has come from dilution or complete sales of many of its units like Hertz Mercury etc.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Once again you are showing a very narrow understanding of how business is run and a complete lack of facts. Ford was never bailed out, they never took any bail out money, it was GM who did. According to your narrow understanding of business and wins, if TATA sells off one it's assets , and it does well elsewhere. It TATA is quote" Fools who should feel really stupid" .

Jaguar and LandRover where rescued by TATA other wise they where loseing makeing even when white skin people where running it.

EDIT

Who edited?

 

[JayATL]

JayATL - a person living a "middle class" existence in India, lives a better life than a Brit living a "middle class" existence in Britain. That's how it is today, when the middle classes are compared. Of course, by "middle class", I am referring to the modern urban Indian, usually young.

A middle class Indian compared to brit:
- how much he yearn on average?
- what was his life expectancy at birth and now later post 5 years old
- what kind of health insurance does he have provided by the govt
- what kind of infrastructure surrounds him and its quality?
- What is the standard of environmental protections his govt provides?
- what is state of security apparatus or civilian emergency services available for him and its quality, response times?
- What safety net does his govt provide in terms of welfare and income in case of loss of jobs?
- how regulated are the food standards ?
- what is the corruption Index?
- what kind of religious freedom he can expect


Compare your thoughts and answers to Brits. You made the claim that a brit middle class enjoys a LESS standard than an Indian middle classer.

 

[trackwhack]

You know whats funny? I drive a Ford Mondeo in India. The car is marketed by Ford but it has a Jaguar XJR engine. This car was selling when JLR was still owned by Ford.

 

[JayATL]

You're right about them not accepting government money. They raised money through debt equity swaps - wise. Anyway back to Ford feeling stupid. Tata paid 2.3 billion to Ford for JLR. They have since made consolidated profits of close to 4 billion. Would Ford feel stupid. Of course yes. Why - Because in the last 2 years, Fords net profir is less than 10 billion and much of that has come from dilution or complete sales of many of its units like Hertz Mercury etc.

Of course I'm right. That is not a shocker. Congrats to Tata, it does help have inexpensive labor and a market like India. But making " Ford" to be incompetent is naive. Good day...don't forget to tweet that you were blessed to have been replied to by me.

You know whats funny? I drive a Ford Mondeo in India. The car is marketed by Ford but it has a Jaguar XJR engine. This car was selling when JLR was still owned by Ford.

I wouldn't know, I drive a Porsche. Yes, that make me smart , good looking and also fairly well off.

 

[trackwhack]

Of course I'm right. That is not a shocker. Congrats to Tata, it does help have inexpensive labor and a market like India. But making " Ford" to be incompetent is naive. Good day...don't forget to tweet that you were blessed to have been replied to by me.



I wouldn't know, I drive a Porsche. Yes, that make me smart , good looking and also fairly well off.

Speechless

 

[Ray]

I don't know if driving a Porsche is having arrived.

I have a Mercedez but I was trifle embarrassed since the car is a common taxi in Malaysia!

 

[JayATL]

Speechless

My postings are copyright protected , don't post them in other forums. I impart my wisdom to only a few . consider yourself blessed. Jitai Raho bata.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

A middle class Indian compared to brit:
- how much he yearn on average?

Enough to have an Maid to do our dishes. Do they?

- what was his life expectancy at birth and now later post 5 years old

For middle class? Same as Britian, we have good hospitals staffed by the same indians who work in UK. Why go there then?

- what kind of health insurance does he have provided by the govt

Its very affordable for middles class famalies to have health security, we even borrow from our extended family.

- what kind of infrastructure surrounds him and its quality?

Roads are bad, congested but i can hire a driver for my small car.

- What is the standard of environmental protections his govt provides?

Say what? You mean we are not the largest polluter in the world for our population? Which nation is?

- what is state of security apparatus or civilian emergency services available for him and its quality, response times?

Not bad but yes must improve but USA has no health care.

- What safety net does his govt provide in terms of welfare and income in case of loss of jobs?

We have family net, we have siblings who work etc., No one is bothered about that a lot.

- how regulated are the food standards ?

Excellent, i eat every where never get sick.

- what is the corruption Index?

Yup got us.. but WE ARE INDIAN, let us bother about staying here and correcting it no work of an sell out to lecture us on.

- what kind of religious freedom he can expect

Not bad, I am an open Atheist and no one ostracizes me like in USA.

Compare your thoughts and answers to Brits. You made the claim that a brit middle class enjoys a LESS standard than an Indian middle classer.

O right, you could not answer so you sold out and tried to paint yourself. No cracker will mess with me.

 

[Bangalorean]

A middle class Indian compared to brit:
- how much he yearn on average?
- what was his life expectancy at birth and now later post 5 years old
- what kind of health insurance does he have provided by the govt
- what kind of infrastructure surrounds him and its quality?
- What is the standard of environmental protections his govt provides?
- what is state of security apparatus or civilian emergency services available for him and its quality, response times?
- What safety net does his govt provide in terms of welfare and income in case of loss of jobs?
- how regulated are the food standards ?
- what is the corruption Index?
- what kind of religious freedom he can expect


Compare your thoughts and answers to Brits. You made the claim that a brit middle class enjoys a LESS standard than an Indian middle classer.

There is a reason that I chose to make my career in India, rather than trying to emigrate to the West. I have no reason to regret my decision, so far. There is a reason that lots of people are making the same choice as I did, and this percentage keeps increasing.

I live a better life than my contemporary Brits of similar standing in society.

I earn more than Brits at my age do - there is something called "purchasing power parity", you know - converting the earning of a Brit in pounds into rupees and saying that he earns more, makes no sense at all. I do earn a better sum than most Brits.

The life expectancy of a middle class Indian is the same as that of a middle class Brit. The average expectancy of an Indian is in the high 60s, because of the huge number of poor masses in India. Compare the stats for the "middle classes" alone, and there is no difference. My grandparents are still alive, and they are more than 80-85 years old. Most of my peers have very old parents and grandparents.

Healthcare, you say? Heh - the amount of moaning that Western citizens raise about healthcare is legendary.

I had to get a wisdom tooth extracted recently - it came out too late, for some reason. I walked over to my regular dentist, whom I have been visiting for nearly a decade now. He extracted it for 300 rupees, and the antibiotics/painkillers cost less than 100. I was just browsing the internet for information on wisdom teeth, necessity for extraction, etc. I noticed an abnormally high number of questions/discussions from Westerners (mainly US and UK of course) about how to avoid it, how to pull it at home , how to tie a string to a doorknob (and the tooth) and slam the door to get it removed (yikes).

All of them had the same story - my insurance doesn't cover it, I cannot afford it, my dentist is insisting that I get a $1400 cleaning done first - things like that...

No, I am better off in terms of healthcare. Do you know that super-specialty, high-quality healthcare is actually cheap here? Don't even compare healthcare in the US/UK vs. what we have here in India, for a reasonably well-off middle class guy. Health insurance? It hardly costs anything to get it here - it is a very small part of my salary.

Loss of jobs - are you kidding me? As though the state in the UK/US provides a complete 100% dole in case of job loss! Had that been the case, there wouldn't have been so much whining against outsourcing.

"Religious freedom" - this is getting laughable now.