What is the least violent solution to Kashmir you can imagine?

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by ArmchairGeneral, Jul 1, 2015.

  1. ArmchairGeneral

    ArmchairGeneral Regular Member

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    I think Indians and Pakis need to look to the example of Northern Ireland. Both in peace and in war.

    Now, northern ireland and kashmir conflict bear similarities in countless ways:

    - They involve two countries, with one being a breakaway of the other (UK/Ireland and India/Pak)

    - They involve an element of religion (Catholic/Protestant and Muslim/Hindu)

    - They involve partition on sectarian lines (NI was created as a gerrymandered state for protestant unionists)

    - Both involve militancy between rival groups and state involvement/collusion (IRA/UVF and LeT/Ikhwan)

    - Both were triggered by seemingly innocuous things - The Troubles by a civil rights march, and the insurgency by a rigged election

    Now, the one area where they differ is the sectarian angle. In NI, it was the minority (republicans) fighting against the majority (loyalists with state support) for an end to the occupation. The society of NI is still described as "self-imposed apartheid",with catholic and protestant neighbourhoods being seperated by bunkers, barbed wire and "peace walls".

    Whereas in JK, the people of Jammu and Ladakh although support India, they have never taken arms against the Kashmiris who largely support Pak.

    My solution is in two parts: violent and non-violent.

    The first part is simple. Raise and fund as many pro-Indian militias as possible. Some should be formed of renegade militants, some should be raised by Pandits and funded by RSS (who the IA should arm and hide weapons in their settlements). Some should be ethnic Dogra hindu/sikh/muslim based militias with RSS and IA backing, and there should also be Ladakhi Shia militias, possibly with Iranian Basiji/Hizbollah training.
    These should fight co-ordinated campaigns to put an end to sunni-Kashmiri domination.The aim would be simple: make the cost of anti-India too high to continue. This will also help our army focus more on the LoC, hence also stopping cross-border nonsense.

    Then once the aggressors have no option but to sue for peace, a Northern Ireland-style agreement would be most advantageous to India, one where there are four sets of agreements: Between India-Pak, India-Kashmir, Pak-Kashmir and Cross-LoC-Kashmirs. In an ideal situation (after referendum in each region), Gilgit-Baltistan will be given constitutional status in Pakistan, Jammu and Ladakh will be fully integrated into India, while Kashmir and PoK will continue to hold onto autonomous status in their respective nations. There will be agreements of free trade and semi-free movement within the region (all assuming militancy has stopped). Hence Pakistan will permanently give up claims to Jammu and Ladakh, India will permanently give up claims to Gilgit-Baltistan and the two Kashmirs will be able to join the other country in the future if a majority ever demands it.
     
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  3. Pulkit

    Pulkit Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs" Senior Member

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    Thanks for your post .
    I do have some reservations on your take on this issue.
    I do not like your repetitive reference to RSS for the action you asked.(FYI I am not a member of RSS)
    Ikhwan might have been active in the 90's but is no longer active here.
    If you go through History of partition Kashmir had not joined INDIA till Pakis invaded it then only the Ruler of Kashmir signed accession to India So thinking that it will not happen again is silly .

    To add to it in the last two decades the large portion of Kashmiris have been forced out of Kashmir due to terrorism caused by Pakistan.

    Our DM has already stated what you said as first part of solution .We have no issues making Paki sponsored terrorism a costly adventure for them.
     
  4. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    self delete .................................................................................................
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  5. aliyah

    aliyah Regular Member

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    hahahaha......Kashmir! who even fighting for Kashmir??
    we both r fighting for Baluchistan :)
     
  6. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    No no no no no .......a million times no !

    why shd packland be involved ....? it is our management issue not theirs
    they can concentrate on trying to keep saraikistan and south punjab (both of which prefer independence ) as their colonies ....kashmir is none of their business

    the Hindu Hater ( HH, not to be confused with His Highness ) Mr J Neh., made a gross blunder but that doesnt mean we cant correct it ...

    Ahhhhh ....no way ..no no no
    northern ireland is none of our business and kashmir is none of anyone else's business but ours
    it is not the business of packland, nor uk nor UN nor ccpchina ..it is the business of India and no one else !

    no no no no ...... my solution is much more simple & straightforward

    those areas in Kash that collectively accept indian sovereignty and are seen to be behaving by the rules then they are no different from anyone else ..they go to whatever university they qualify for anywhere in the nation and they apply for any job including goi jobs - they are a full-fledged citizen and no less, in fact some special positive discrimination can even be extended to them, the residents of those areas of Kash which behave well

    and those areas which do not ......well we do them china-style collective treatment - what they are doing in xinjiang ......and packland cant complain because we are only following the great example of higher than himalayas friend ....
    the world wont complain because they are doing NOTHING about xinjiang !
    most of the world hasn't even hear the word !

    those areas which do not accept indian sovereignty and dont behave , do not need universities nor will they enter the indian system at the administrative levels , hospitals can remain last priority as others areas deserve priority budgeting and the leftovers can go to the rebellious areas

    and those who wave pack flags will be given free military transport to friendly afghanistan and can make their way to through the porous border to become celebrated refugees in packland .

    until and unless the goi does something along the lines i've mentioned, this problem will continue on for ever !

    ps: ive tagged a lot of people because i feel it's our management issue and not pack's, nor ccpchina's , UN or whatever

    @LETHALFORCE@Kunal Biswas @pmaitra @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @Srinivas_K
    @bose @brational @anupamsurey @TejasMK3 @sorcerer @ersakthivel @jackprince
    @Blackwater @Rowdy @indiandefencefan@cobra commando @sanjeeva.rao.100

    @aliyah @hit&run @VIP @Razor @Bangalorean @Blood+ @Sylex21@angeldude13
    @blueblood@DingDong @Zebra @sorcerer
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  7. angeldude13

    angeldude13 Lestat De Lioncourt Senior Member

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    Well the only peaceful solution is India should dissolve the article 370 and shoot the muzzie [email protected] who try to crossover to our territory.
    Kashmiri chicks and boys should be forced to marry Indian muslims. Breeding with Incestous [email protected] from Al Baki land has made them kashmiris terrorist.
     
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  8. anupamsurey

    anupamsurey Regular Member

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    I agree with @roma and @angeldude13, there are many kashmiris who support Indian cause (say some 85-90 pc), some who donot (say 10-15 pc) are concentrated at Valley, they are Instigated by Paki backing hurriats and other Dadhi walas.
    there are few things that can be done with regard to kashmir is to
    1.repeal Art. 371,
    2.Deport, or banish the Paki lovers.
    3.Heavy Industrialization of Kashmir with involvement of Indian firms (so that population becomes dependent on India more and more).
    4.facilitating movement of people from rest of the India to kashmir (Mostly Hindus), like the Pakis did in POK.
    5. kill all intrufding terrorists.
     
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  9. avknight1408

    avknight1408 Regular Member

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    1. Build Great wall of india along LOC. Lay landmines across it. The terrorists should go straight to their 72virgins.
    2. Finish Kashmir Railway. Once all weather link to the rest of country is complete, industries and tourism will grow and economy will prosper.
     
  10. The enlightened

    The enlightened Regular Member

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    Resolve Kashmir dispute in the most non-violent manner with these easy steps

    7. Conduct Plebiscite
    8. Kashmiris vote for India with a near-consensus.
    9. Issue resolved






    But before that, do not forget the preparatory steps
    1. Conduct plebiscite.
    2. Round up those voting for Pukeistan
    3. Give them 3 'days of grace' to self-deport their sorry ass over to Pukeistan, with immediate effect.
    4. Round up those who resist or refuse.
    5. Shoot them.
    6. Shoot the survivors again.
     
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  11. Bangalibaba

    Bangalibaba Regular Member

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    If Kashmir problem would have been solved by us discussing, I sincerely believe it wouldn't have lasted this long. But as we are to discuss how to resolve the issue, we need to understand the backdrop of it all. So here's my take with a small personal experience, which I gained during my visit there, last year.

    ********************************************************

    Well, I've read a thing or two about Kashmir and been there last year for a long tour.Please be specific about the thread. Is it about only Kashmir valley, comprising Indian Kashmir and Azad Kashmir (PO Kashmir) or the entire state of J&K? J&K is not a monolith rather a completely diverse land.Jammu people are mostly Hindus thus prefer to stay in India and so are Ladakhis who are mainly Buddhists. WIth Jammu region and Ladakh out of the equation let's come to the other side of the Jawahar Tunnel, the Valley of Kashmir.

    The Valley of Kashir too is again diverse, though mostly Sunnis but has Shia dominated pockets. Shias are equally indecisive about the fate of Kashmir.If you cross Sonamarg, the Muslims there speaks Gujjari due to their origin from Himachali side. Historically too,even Gilgit-Baltistan is way more closely related to Ladakh region than Kashmir Valley itself. But majority of the Kashmiris of both sides see themselves as Kashmiris rather than Indian or Pakistanis. Last year during my extensive tour mixed with lot of poor downtrodden people there. And found them confused to the last bit. They need India, in their words, so that their food and other materials supplies are not hampered and they feel closely knit with Pakistanis due to their religion. That's a tough choice no doubt. If you are a tourist, they'll virtually indicate that they stand with India and one of the SBI Branch manager, I had dealt with indeed said "Kashmir to Kanyakumari, we are one", I was delighted to hear it, but actually he was trying to be nice and wanted to make me comfortable, and that's it.

    So, basically they have been caught between a rock and a hard place. Kashmiris for sure know that we wouldn't take our hands off them (until a UPA3UPA4 type comes with a full majority in both Loksabha and Rajyasabha, and I even shudder to think that) and also it would be much difficult for them to survive in a Pakistani Kashmir, but religion is a strong attachment and the likes of Geelani, Mirwaiz Omar Farooq and Yasin Malik still has considerable clout among the masses and youth. But deep inside they want freedom from both India and Pakistan but favorable doles from Indian side, preferably.

    The youth in Kashmir are a complete confused state of limbo you can definitely say. Their parents, who have mostly seen the hard days of late eightees and nineties, inculcate a deep sense of antipathy towards the State of India. Mistakes after mistakes of the past State Governments and Union Govt. (barring AVB period from 1998 to 2004) enhanced this state of limbo and created a deeper paranoia among the masses. Starting from Nehru's self-defeating UN intervention call to the famous (or INFAMOUS) Lal Chowk declaration (http://www.kashmirawareness.org/Article/View/5804/nehrus-promise) to massively rigged/subterfudged election of Abdullah in 1987 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir_Legislative_Assembly_election,_1987#cite_note-12) and to keeping the people of Kashmir in abject poverty. Infact a rabid India hater like Geelani too participated in Indian election system and won from Sopore seat. But in Union there was Rajiv Govt., who thought he can browbeat them all and instill his friend, Abdullah into the throne! And man he WAS WRONG!

    ********************************************************

    In Azad Kashmir (PO Kashmir Valley) I'm using the term just to corroborate that I'm taking only about Pakistan occupied Kashmir valley and not of Gilgit Baltistan, people too are exploited, kept in abject poverty but they still have a strong bond with the Pakistani establishment and Pakistanis themselves,that's their religion and that transcends to our side of the valley too. First if India needs to winover the Kashmir (as well the people of Kashmir) then it has to get on with a massive developmental plan, in an unprecedented scale. A scale that cannot be matched by the other side or LOC, then we can merely hope the situation may change. That may as well create the urgency amongst the people on the other side of the LOC, to crossover, and IMHO, that won't be such a bad thing at all. But the Union Govt. cannot go in a massive development spree because it'll be obstructed by Article 370, as private players wouldn't be able to acquire land required for such a massive development project and it simply does not have enough bandwidth to cater. So basically it's a lose-lose situation. Also for long enough Kashmir issue was kept alive by Congress Govts after Govts, as a pot boiler, so that it can be milked, as and when required and the Kashmiris haven't yet forgotten it, nor the old/middle aged Kashmiris would allow the next generation to forget it.

    The one way to integrate Kashmir is the way of development and to help them in their needs of troubled times, I can bet the way Indian Army helped the people of Kashmir during the flood last year, have changed some peoples' views about them even if it is 5%, its a positive start still.And mind you in Kashmir all the Pakistani news channels are broadcasted, which spews venom towards the State of India almost all the time and runs humongous propaganda on their channels, so to believe all of them will turn favorable towards India overnight is just plain and simple stupidity. Also no question of an all powerful 'Plebiscite' comes into the picture as Pakistan never observed the first requirement of the 1948 UN Charter to move all of its troops out of Gilgit Baltistan and Azad Kashmir (http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=S/RES/47(1948)) the pdf file is uploaded as well and after the Shimla Agreement of 1972 (http://www.mea.gov.in/in-focus-article.htm?19005/Simla+Agreement+July+2+1972) the requirement of UN has been practically nullified. But I am a strong votery of the Policy failure of Mrs. Indira Gandhi regarding this. In my view any sane nation, which would have had ~94,000 POW, would have gotten back their lost territories, but not India. But I'm not sure what went wrong and why a 'Nationalist Pime Minister' did not take back the entire territory of lost Kashmir is baffling, we simply lost the best opportunity we had to get back what is RIGHTFULLY ours.

    The other way is that incase of a big Terrorist attack, we use the Cold start and cross the LOC and hit where it hurts most, yes in their jugular vein. If it happens within Modi's Prime Ministership, I think he would not hesitate in giving the marching orders to our Forces to cross over LOC, which Bajpayee didn't during Kargil 1999. Although I know I am putting my neck in the line in saying this, but IMHO Bajpayee did see himself more of a wide hearted statesman than a pragmatist, which is not the case with Modi, who has all signs of being an outright Pragmatis. There may be severe collateral damages, but I'm doubtful whether Pakistan would want to use their Nukes, even if Tactical, for Gilgit Baltistan region, where Shia is majority and I doubt the local Shia Balti people would oppose it. But if Pakistan uses it's Tactical Nukes on Indian assets for salvaging Gilgit Baltistan,India should reign hell upon them and although there can be a massive destruction on Indian sides, but we can make sure that they are annihilated. It may be ruthless and senseless to sound for sure, but it's about time to call their bluff, with a poker face.

    :dude:
     

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  12. prohumanity

    prohumanity Regular Member

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    Most practical and realistic solution....Make the line of control international border....open trade routes with Pakistan and China....business corridors and silk routes....massive program to educate people and provide health care to masses. When people are smart and prosperous, borders will become irrelevant as the hearts will be open and receptive. Lets march to future with positivity and hope...towards win win win situation.(India,China plus Pakistan..all together) Vasu Deva Kutumbakam ...in practice.
     
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  13. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Will you stop with your hypocritical aman ki asha crap? If you can't you can comment this WKK bull shit on this thread

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...d-jihad-council-chief-salahuddin.68170/unread

    :rolleyes:

    And showe that red part up your American.... Thanks
     
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  14. Dovah

    Dovah Untermensch Senior Member

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    The least violent solution would be to let capitalists run amok there.

    Money trumps religion every time.
     
  15. angeldude13

    angeldude13 Lestat De Lioncourt Senior Member

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    Not in the case of muzzies.
    Those muzzies have everything in britain (atleast they've three time food) and look how they turned out to be.
    I've never read quran but I can say it's an open architecture because every single muzzie interpret it in his own way and those who are too dumb to interpret follows others for the fun sake.
    So your argument about money trumping relegion is flawed else we would be having strip club in dubai with muzzie chicks giving lap dance and fellatio to their customer :wink:
     
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  16. Dovah

    Dovah Untermensch Senior Member

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    Britain's example is a peculiar one. The radical nature of immigrants over there could be a consequence of a more socialistic approach of welfare that they enjoy.
    Capitalism does not mean giving people free stuff, the ideology is directly opposite to it. You have to work for money. Case in point, USA.

    How can you call Quran an 'open architecture' when you have not even read it?

    Any one can misinterpret anything. For example, the whole idea of Social Darwinism steps from a misinterpretation of the Theory of Evolution, would you call the Theories of Evolution an open architecture?

    And name calling is just crass.

    Of course it is not a perfect solution. But the idea behind it is in fact correct.

    Dubai is peaceful, don't you agree? Unless, you don't consider a state to be peaceful until you can get a blowie at a titty-bar, in which case I would say no part of India is peaceful.

    In any case, Dubai is oil-rich, not capitalism-rich in a meaningful sense.
     
  17. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    You are using words too liberally to suit your points(in this case Socialism, Capitalism and wealth). In that case India is capitalist too - since muzzies here have to work for their food. Has it made them less barbaric?

    And what about the hundreds of middle class terrorists? Poverty and economics solving Islam is the weakest argument anyone can present
    Calling a spade a spade is not name calling.

    And One need not need read all of quran to know what it is. there are plenty of passages that can prove it is a barbaric cult which has no p[lace in modern world. Of course same can be said about Xtians but they dont take their Bible anymore. If muslims can do that, then there would be no islamic terrorism in the world. And of course the intrepretation of Islam to be peaceful requires so much somersaults and mental gymnastics, while even bible can be easily intrepreted to be peaceful - a simple way being differentiating old and new testaments(since most of the barbaric parts of bible are in old testament)

    And of course , just because they can do that does not mean we can give a free pass when they dont citing future possibilities .ie, A loser with high Iq who wont earn his food and is a parasite on a society is still a parasite on the society even if he has the potential to be not.


    More jiggling of the words capitalism to suit your point, but that aside this whole reasoning is flawed. Dubai is not a civilised world by any measure and your defn of it being peaceful is flawed. Can you criticise quran there and come out alive? And also with your defn of being "peaceful" even North Korea would be peaceful :p
     
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  18. indiandefencefan

    indiandefencefan Regular Member

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    The only way to resolve the Kashmir issue is to pursue full integration Kashmir valley with mainstream Indian culture by improving infrastructure and connectivity of the kashmiri people with India.
    This can be accomplished by establishing schools and universities with curriculum the same as what a student in any other Indian student will learn.This will help integrate the Kashmiri youth with what it means to be an Indian and prevent any chances of their hostility towards India which may be caused by non-state agents.
    We also must give a reason for the people of Kashmir valley to appreciate Indian occupation by developing services there and decreasing any possibilities of any extra-judicial killings being carried which alienate people there against India.
    I also agree with @roma on collective treatment and it can be an effective way to manage this crisis.

    We all have to accept the fact that the only way to quickly way this issue is war and barring that, no method will give us results quickly and we must wait if we want this issue to be resolved in a peaceful manner.
     
  19. angeldude13

    angeldude13 Lestat De Lioncourt Senior Member

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    With those freebies they also gets opportunities. While people from dharmic religion gets benefit and grow with those opportunities why is that only muslims be it bengalis or pakistanis like to live on the welfare??

    With so many interpretation out there for ex. wahabism,salafism,deobandis etc one can use logic to tell it's an open architecture.

    It is peaceful only because of the death penalty and those medieval shariah penalty. People there know that they'll get decapitated if they try anything funny. Do you consider medieval era laws to be a recognition of a peaceful country.
    And you do know that these arabs are the one who are supporting and funding terrorist in the world. Actually the ideology of wahabism(which most of the terrorist have) generated in the Arab world.....
     
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  20. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    Kashmir is a lost case as long as the Muslim population is in majority they will remain vulnerable to their usual derailment from the main stream. It takes one mullah to make 10,000 Muslims venomous, and it take 100 Hindus to make next Hindu i.e. 101st Hindu venomous. I have my own unscientific calculations for other religions as well.
     
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  21. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    You are right except for the part about Hindus. Have you seen intercaste violence in Hindus? Hindus today are tolerant of barbarians out of ignorance rather than actual inherent "weakness, or softness". They are tolerant because of their mistaken belief(taught to them by leftist education) that all religions are equal and same. For a hindu worshipping Vishnu as prime deity, a muslim worshipping allah is no different than a Hindu worshipping Siva as prime deity, so long as he does not know what the muslim actually thinks about him
     

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