What If Multi-cal Rifle Tender Fails?

What If Multi-Cal Rifle Tender Fails ?


  • Total voters
    39

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
i wonder how hard can it be to make a assault rifle when we are sending rockets to Mars
INSAS cost 25000 and multi barrel rifle will cost almost 4 times that cost. Plus for Indian soldier you need to have Indian made solution with good quality. BTW after this multi barrel rifle trial you will know how difficult to find or make rifle for Indian conditions.
 

Abhijeet Dey

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,735
Likes
2,470
Country flag
come on, they make ICBM and BMD at shoe string budget and you are calling them corrupt.

Those guys can make tons of money if working for military industrial complex in US, but they stayed and worked here on sarkari salaries.
Sorry but still there are many big projects which they should have completed on time such as LCA Tejas.
 

bose

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Messages
4,921
Likes
5,961
Country flag
Maybe ISRO Scientists are not like corrupt officials of DRDO.
I would not say that the DRDO scientists are corrupt... that will be un fair... but definitly DRDO lacks proper project management skills... the golden rules for good project management are 1) Never make assumptions 2) Under promise and over deliver...
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
I think you should ask @ersakthivel over Tejas threads ..

====================

Offtopic >

Also just to point out the project actually begun in late 90s, Since then its a decade and we have operational Tejas in IAF since Dec 2011 ..

====================

Continue discussion over Tejas thread ......

Sorry but still there are many big projects which they should have completed on time such as LCA Tejas.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ersakthivel

Brilliance
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,762
Country flag
Maybe ISRO Scientists are not like corrupt officials of DRDO.
Sorry but still there are many big projects which they should have completed on time such as LCA Tejas.

If it is so why did ISRO scientists fail to get GSLV right after three launches.You should know that our PSLV is a a phantom weight contneder in international launch business,

DRDO has given the country a state of the art road and rail mobile rugged Agni-V which has the capability to hurl 4 or 5 MIRV nukes anywhere on china with single digit meter accuracy effectively stalemating china's string of pearls strategy.

And it's sub launched ballistic missile tech is also proven and placed on Arihant, not an insignificant achievement .

Eventhough peoples were talking about LCA from time immemorial , actual funding for two tech demo was sanctioned only in 1993, The initial 560 cr given to ADA in 1983 was to set up initial infraand test facilities for the program and to do project definition .This was completed by 1989.

But funding was given only in 1993 for two TDs all due to economic crisis of 1990s.

And TDs flew in 2001 with in 7 years of validating all the techs CLAWS for fly by wire, composite tech, inertial navigation system , mission computer,aerodynamics of compound delta .Not an insignificant achievement by any yard stick . That too with all the tech partners washing their hands off after the Nuclear test sanctions.

In 2004 IAF revised it's requirements leading to FSED phase -II which led the fighter to be modeled towards more rounded multi role capability with litening pods and strengthened wing sections to carry more launch stress inducing higher weight missiles.


Also the only part that lagged behind was the kaveri jet engine and even that has made substantial progress in achieving close to 81 Kn (84 Kn is the target ) wet thrust by 2009.

The reason K-9 development was discontinued was due to the newer IAF demands which led to the FSED phase-II of tejas program the weight of the fighter went up by a ton and the engine became underpowered for that.

It's marine version is working successfully and will get naval orders and the much more powerful K-10 development with foreign assistance is on.It is a significant achievement considering that TWR of K-9 is around 6.8, which is what close to western engines of the 1990s tech. Note the GE-404 IN 20 which powers tejas mk-1 too has around 8 as TWR .

In comparison the ISRO is yet to reach the 1990s pay load levels of western launch vehicles in the all critical geo synchronous orbit.I don't mean to belittle their other achievements including 100 successful space launches and INSAT , RITSAT, mangalyan, Chandryan sats.

to put it into perspective both ISRO and DRDO are 20 years behind west in tech development , which is natural when you consider the late start , meager funding(that's why C.N.R.Rao criticized the politicians as fools immediately after receiving bharath ratna ) brain drain and primitive industrial back ground.

SO IOC at 2012 gives you a time line of 20 years which is just five years more than the time it took for grippen which had majority foreign components and even fly by wire from US.

RAFALE and TYPHOON too took the same period as Tejas. it is all explained in tejas IV thread.While DRDO achieved this IOC after ever changing user requirements ISRO with no outside interference is yet to launch GSLV successfully. ofcourse ISRO has done well with chandryiyan and INSATs and PSLVS along with remote sensing satelites.

So both have done as much as possible struggling against brain drain to foreign countries in the back drop of primitive industrial base of the country.
 
Last edited:

Singh

Phat Cat
Super Mod
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
20,311
Likes
8,403
Country flag
INSAS has proven itself in Kargil war and it is made as per Indian army doctrine. Cant say the same for other rifles.
I don't think Army was happy with Insas during Kargil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 

rvjpheonix

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
251
Likes
171
Country flag
If it is so why did ISRO scientists fail to get GSLV right after three launches.You should know that our PSLV is a a phantom weight contneder in international launch business,

DRDO has given the country a state of the art road and rail mobile rugged Agni-V which has the capability to hurl 4 or 5 MIRV nukes anywhere on china with single digit meter accuracy effectively stalemating china's string of pearls strategy.

And it's sub launched ballistic missile tech is also proven and placed on Arihant, not an insignificant achievement .

Eventhough peoples were talking about LCA from time immemorial , actual funding for two tech demo was sanctioned only in 1993, The initial 560 cr given to ADA in 1983 was to set up initial infraand test facilities for the program and to do project definition .This was completed by 1989.

But funding was given only in 1993 for two TDs all due to economic crisis of 1990s.

And TDs flew in 2001 with in 7 years of validating all the techs CLAWS for fly by wire, composite tech, inertial navigation system , mission computer,aerodynamics of compound delta .Not an insignificant achievement by any yard stick . That too with all the tech partners washing their hands off after the Nuclear test sanctions.

In 2004 IAF revised it's requirements leading to FSED phase -II which led the fighter to be modeled towards more rounded multi role capability with litening pods and strengthened wing sections to carry more launch stress inducing higher weight missiles.


Also the only part that lagged behind was the kaveri jet engine and even that has made substantial progress in achieving close to 81 Kn (84 Kn is the target ) wet thrust by 2009.

The reason K-9 development was discontinued was due to the newer IAF demands which led to the FSED phase-II of tejas program the weight of the fighter went up by a ton and the engine became underpowered for that.

It's marine version is working successfully and will get naval orders and the much more powerful K-10 development with foreign assistance is on.It is a significant achievement considering that TWR of K-9 is around 6.8, which is what close to western engines of the 1990s tech. Note the GE-404 IN 20 which powers tejas mk-1 too has around 8 as TWR .

In comparison the ISRO is yet to reach the 1990s pay load levels of western launch vehicles in the all critical geo synchronous orbit.I don't mean to belittle their other achievements including 100 successful space launches and INSAT , RITSAT, mangalyan, Chandryan sats.

to put it into perspective both ISRO and DRDO are 20 years behind west in tech development , which is natural when you consider the late start , meager funding(that's why C.N.R.Rao criticized the politicians as fools immediately after receiving bharath ratna ) brain drain and primitive industrial back ground.

SO IOC at 2012 gives you a time line of 20 years which is just five years more than the time it took for grippen which had majority foreign components and even fly by wire from US.

RAFALE and TYPHOON too took the same period as Tejas. it is all explained in tejas IV thread.While DRDO achieved this IOC after ever changing user requirements ISRO with no outside interference is yet to launch GSLV successfully. ofcourse ISRO has done well with chandryiyan and INSATs and PSLVS along with remote sensing satelites.

So both have done as much as possible struggling against brain drain to foreign countries in the back drop of primitive industrial base of the country.
About the kaveri part. It only produced 71 KN and not 81 KN when tested in gromov in rusiia. I know it is flat rated but I guess we can expect it to drop a bit more in our conditions. When did it get 81 KNs?
 

sayareakd

Mod
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,952
Country flag
I don't think Army was happy with Insas during Kargil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
Ask @Ray sir, he has said so many times, he was satisfied with the rifle and those who complaint about it, have never used it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

mehrotraprince

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2010
Messages
198
Likes
348
Country flag
About the kaveri part. It only produced 71 KN and not 81 KN when tested in gromov in rusiia. I know it is flat rated but I guess we can expect it to drop a bit more in our conditions. When did it get 81 KNs?
Kaveri-Special Characteristics
Air-mass flow : 78 kg/s
By-pass ratio : 0.16
Overall pressure ratio : 21.5
Turbine entry temperature : 1487-1700 K
Maximum dry thrust : 52 kN (5302 kg)
Maximum dry SFC : 0.78 kg/hr/kg
After burner maximum power thrust : 81 kN (8260 kg)
After burner maximum power SFC : 2.03 kg/hr/kg
Thrust-to-weight ratio : 7.8
http://drdo.res.in:8080/alpha/drdo/English/kaveri.html

I hope this will help.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Ask @Ray sir, he has said so many times, he was satisfied with the rifle and those who complaint about it, have never used it.
To be frank, we had received no complaints about the INSAS.

There is always a tendency amongst people to create controversies for the sake of it just to focus attention on themselves or to pursue some agenda.

Now, if there was any problem with the INSAS, why was it not mentioned in the After Action Reports?

I have not seen any such complaints at the DIv HQ either.

Are there better rifles in the world than the INSAS?

I am sure they are.

But what of it?

Would INSAS have problems?

I am sure that there is the possibility.

But then which weapon or weapon platform is ideal and perfect?

Everything in life is a compromise.

Personally I would like a rifle that can detect the enemy, cock itself, aim itself, fire on its own, hit result being 100% and all I have to do is loll around and drink coffee sitting not in a trench, but in a bunker that is as good as the Queen's bedroom at the Buckingham Palace.

Any rifle like that for sale? Or such a bunker for the asking?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Twinblade

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
1,578
Likes
3,231
Country flag
About the kaveri part. It only produced 71 KN and not 81 KN when tested in gromov in rusiia. I know it is flat rated but I guess we can expect it to drop a bit more in our conditions. When did it get 81 KNs?
It hasn't.
 
Last edited:

rajsking

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2013
Messages
190
Likes
230
Country flag
kunal sir figure would be 1 billion which means 1,000,000,000 USD and in INR it is 55,000,000,000 which is 5500 crores
so cost per unit is 8,59,375



INSAS cost about 25000 INR :tsk:
In one of the promotional videos - they talked about it being priced at around 2000USD. Even if we consider they overshot it by 100%, it should not cost more than 4000 USD. This translates into about 2.5 lakhs per piece.
There is still a huge unexplained gap of Rs 6 lakhs.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,042
Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective



The much higher figures reported for IA's purchase plans are therefore either incorrect or point to the massive royalty payments that international arms manufacturers are seeking for technology transfer obligations. It is at this point that IA needs to ask itself whether replacing an INSAS rifle costing between Rs 15-20,000 at last count with an imported rifle quoted at 6-8 times that figure is really worth the trouble. Do note, that the civilian version of the Beretta ARX-160, the ARX-100, retails at a starting price of $1950 in the United States.
Now imported designs don't always fare as well as they are touted to under Indian conditions and product support from foreign sources can also be iffy. For instance, the Home Ministry's import of over 34000 Beretta MX4 storm sub-machine guns hasn't exactly panned out too well with numerous defects and corrosion marks being found in delivered batches leading to disquiet amongst Border Security Force troops issued with these weapons.
There is no denying that the INSAS rifle family needs development but then that also falls within the lookout of IA itself, which is a key stakeholder in the entire process. As Major General (retd.) Bhupendra Yadav, who has long years of experience with the Department of Defence Production (DDP) in the Ministry of Defence and has a PhD in Operations Management to boot, says 'At the time of introduction in the 1990s it was universally felt that we had a good design on our hands.'
'The issues with the INSAS are known to be on the production side of things,'he continues.'Even there the defects have been identified and should simply have beenrectified with the Army taking the necessary initiative to make the other stakeholders work on this path.After all what exactly are the Master General of Ordnance(MGO) and Director General of Quality Assurance (DGQA) there for anyway? The Army can't suddenly take a standoffish attitude on this and just look abroad.' General Yadav adds emphatically.For those who came late, on OFB's special/extended board are included the MGO and DGQA who are senior serving officers appointed by IA specifically'to represent the users and their interest on quality aspects.' These two gentlemen are supposed get the job done on quality control aspects related to production by OFB.




As per General Yadav, the time already spent in the process of 'downselecting' imported types since 2011, was more than adequate to develop the next iteration of the INSAS and fix issues with it provided there was sufficient will. '3-4 years gives you enough time to upgrade the INSAS to satisfactory levels,' General Yadav remarks. Although hypothetical, a re-look can be taken at something like the Excalibur, a modernized development based on the INSAS which IA has been rather lukewarm too.
Interestingly, as yet another import tender drags along, one finds articles beginning to make their way into the media exhorting the military to expedite the process, such as this piece in the Hindu the other day (The big deal about the Army's small arms - The Hindu). But such articles often make somewhat outlandish claims about performance of indigenously developed weapons that naturally does not go down well with DRDO. Indeed in reply to the Hindu article which claimed that the INSAS apparently doesn't do so well in the Himalayas and hot deserts, DRDO had this to say.
'The trials covered all possible scenarios that a gun of this kind(i.e. INSAS) could encounter or could be imagined to encounter and included sub-zero temperatures at the world's highest located battlefields, the most humid wetlands as well as extreme hot deserts. The gun is available in four variants namely rifle and light machine gun, each in fixed and fold-able butt versions, and offers the option of attaching an Under Barrel Grenade Launcher (UBGL) for launching high explosive grenades upto 400 metres away. The gun makes extensive use of engineering plastics and high strength alloys to withstand boththe rigors of the battlefield as well as varied climates.By 2010, more than a million such guns and more than 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition had been produced and supplied to India's armed forces. It is important to note that while the project cost was merely Rs 3.5 crores, INSAS system had turned over business worth more than Rs 6000 crores by 2010 itself.'
There's no denying that the return on investment on indigenous weapons produced in bulk can be very significant owing to much lower developmental costs. This is precisely one of the reasons why indigenous options in general tend to be cheaper than foreign ones. It should also be noted, that IA wants the very same OFB units to produce the final downselected imported design that have had quality control issues with the INSAS line. It really begs the question as to exactly how OFB units will produce these new next gen imported designs requiring superior machining and finer tolerances to IA's exacting quality standards when they apparently did not always do the same when it came to the INSAS?

Source : Saurav Jha's Blog : Putting the Indian Army's desire to import assault rifles in perspective
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top