Vladimir Putin's visit to India - 2014

[pmaitra]

There was a time when the US officials called Modi a lot of things and refused him VISA. He was completely shut out, and he was squarely blamed for the Gujarat genocide. The moment he became the PM, he turned into, as one US official put it, something like Ronald Reagan. It takes a fraction of a second for the US to change its posture, doesn't it? Faster than Bruce Lee could change his posture.

Anyway, while the US shut its doors on Modi, Russia never did. Modi visited Russia three times while he was being vilified in the west.

P.S.: I am not saying Modi should not be criticized for what happened in Gujarat, but India will not deny VISA to Barack Obama just because the cops in the US can go crazy and murder blacks, or just because Obama hung out with that Ukro-Nazi Arsenic.

 

[Zebra]

"Getting," as in buying off the shelf, with strings attached?

What strings attached to it sir?

Looks like you are not 'getting' it. BTW, India make C-130 here at home.

If numbers are enough, then they can make other things also.

Our deals with Russia are far better. We make Sukhoi-30s in India to a large percentage. Let me know, anytime in the next decade, when we begin to make that much of a US made fighter jet in India.

I doubt it. I saw a report of Minister M M Pallam Raju's answer in house for Su-30 mki.

It says till now India bought kits from Russia and assembled it in India.

UPA's decision was correct that is chose not to buy US made fighters and restricted itself to transporters.

Sir, what you gonna transport on AH-64 Apache, P-8I?

Agreed, Apache is probably better than Mil-28N, but picking Chinook over Mil-26T2 was the stupidest decision made by UPA. The Chinook does not even meet the minimum weight carrying requirements. It is unfortunate that India's national interests are sacrificed to please the US.

Sir, they bought Chinook for troop movement, artillery placement and for other supplies in battlefield.

Mi-26 could be heavier, but won't suit better in battlefield as it is huge and too slow.

 

[Zebra]

There was a time when the US officials called Modi a lot of things and refused him VISA. He was completely shut out, and he was squarely blamed for the Gujarat genocide. The moment he became the PM, he turned into, as one US official put it, something like Ronald Reagan. It takes a fraction of a second for the US to change its posture, doesn't it? Faster than Bruce Lee could change his posture.

Anyway, while the US shut its doors on Modi, Russia never did. Modi visited Russia three times while he was being vilified in the west.

P.S.: I am not saying Modi should not be criticized for what happened in Gujarat, but India will not deny VISA to Barack Obama just because the cops in the US can go crazy and murder blacks, or just because Obama hung out with that Ukro-Nazi Arsenic.

Sir, that was because of UPA fixed spanner in it.

But they forget to do the same in Russia. If I am not wrong.

 

[Zebra]

@pmaitra, sir, why we are not getting these.......

1) Full ToT for FGFA.
2) Full Russian co-operation with 50% finance.
3) Make FGFA in India.

I am only interested in this. Nothing else.

 

[pmaitra]

What strings attached to it sir?

Looks like you are not 'getting' it. BTW, India make C-130 here at home.

If numbers are enough, then they can make other things also.

You said India makes C-130 at home. Please share some pointers. Apparently, I am ignorant about that.

I doubt it. I saw a report of Minister M M Pallam Raju's answer in house for Su-30 mki.

It says till now India bought kits from Russia and assembled it in India.

As I said, let me know, anytime in the next decade, when India "assembles" the F-16 the same way it "assembles" the Sukhoi-30 MKI.

(BTW, till now, HAL procured components from Russia, and other countries too, including India.)

Sir, what you gonna transport on AH-64 Apache, P-8I?

Nothing.

Sir, they bought Chinook for troop movement, artillery placement and for other supplies in battlefield.

Nope. It was bought as a replacement for Mil-26, a heavy lift helicopter. Chinook is not a heavy lift helicopter. I have posted the exact tonnage in the Chinook vs Halo thread. Check up the numbers.

Mi-26 could be heavier, but won't suit better in battlefield as it is huge and too slow.

Really?

Compare the top speeds of the two.
Then, compare the cruise speeds of the two.

Finally, the ferry range.

 

[pmaitra]

Sir, that was because of UPA fixed spanner in it.

But they forget to do the same in Russia. If I am not wrong.

Why only blame UPA? It takes two hands to clap. Why did the US listen to UPA? Moreover, why did they bother to interfere in what happens within India? Do you not feel offended that the US constantly tries to preach everyone what to do and what not to do? I certainly do.

I look at all angles, cultural, historical, ideological, and geopolitical.

India should remain neutral, but if it has to choose, geopolitically, between US and Russia, what answer do I get?

I ask my heart, and I get the answer, Russia.
I ask my head, and I still the get same answer, Russia.

That's probably just me.

 

[Zebra]

You said India makes C-130 at home. Please share some pointers. Apparently, I am ignorant about that.

My bad, I was away from defense news in 2013 and half of 2014. So I missed it.

But LM offered it to India, I was the first member here who posted this news on DFI.

After it, looks like GoI didn't commit for 40 aircrafts and they make only airframe components in India.

Indian Air Force to replace crashed C-130J medium-lift aircraft - Economic Times

India � Lockheed Martin

As I said, let me know, anytime in the next decade, when India "assembles" the F-16 the same way it "assembles" the Sukhoi-30 MKI.

(BTW, till now, HAL procured components from Russia, and other countries too, including India.)

Sir, I already posted the link for that matter. Let me post here again for you. It says Boeing proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners

Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On top of it, India don't use S-92, but they still make airframes here in India.

Nothing.

So UPA preferred much more than just transport aircrafts, which was correct decision.

Nope. It was bought as a replacement for Mil-26, a heavy lift helicopter. Chinook is not a heavy lift helicopter. I have posted the exact tonnage in the Chinook vs Halo thread. Check up the numbers.

Really?

Compare the top speeds of the two.
Then, compare the cruise speeds of the two.

Finally, the ferry range.

They buy Chinook as a replacement of Mi-26 bcz it suits their job, it is more useful.

If I prove the speed of Chinook then it will be second time, I already posted it much before, (at that time also I referred it to you).

The CH-47F Chinook, the fastest military helicopter in the world, has a maximum speed of 315km/h. Image courtesy of Ed Mickley. - Image - Airforce Technology

Chinook is smaller then Mil-26, so it doesn't has that range. But it is suitable for our needs anyway.

 

[ersakthivel]

How dare you to insult Indian women in this forum ? Apologize OR be prepared for the consequence. You should not forget the "Second Strike" capability of India.

cc @Ray; @Kunal Biswas; @ersakthivel; @sgarg;

Where is the footage of indian woman hysteric over Putin?

he pretty much writes first and thinks later. Don't worry. let him have his fun here.

 

[dastan]

There is nothing wrong with FGFA. India wants to increase its design share and industrial share in the project. The negotiations are on. It will be signed. It is a big project so things take time.

Sir i never said there was anything wrong with fgfa i was simply asking if there were any hints at deal materializing anytime soon from both sides during the summit .
Also can anybody explain to me why we chose ka 226t for licensed production and not mi 17 v. And how realistic are the numbers - 400/year quoted by reports

 

[ersakthivel]

I hope you show him how open and working your democratic system is. Maybe also show how different religions and ethnic groups live side by side peacefully. Tell him that it is what also Russians European neighbors want. Nothing else. Ok, you have your own border problems, but at least you could try. Also tell him how you have dealed with your past and have come to terms with UK also.

I think India and Russia share a lot of "national character" regarding mental characteristics and attitude of people. You have a lot of similarities, which I have noticed. I already knew about Russian national character, and you cannot deny that a lot of similarities are there compared to Indian one. In that sense closer ties make a lot of sense and can boost the nationalism in both countries.

Difficult in dealing with the past: India-Colony of Brits, Russia-Fall of the Soviet Union

Long after strong leader instead of strong parliamentary system: India-Modi, Russia-Putin

Like to find outside enemy for internal problems: India-"Brits destroyed our system and we are still down because of that", Russia, "US and EU took our colonies in eastern Europe, they try to weaken us inside".

Emotional thinking instead of pragmatic: India-"We had a great past, we can grow with just our will, not developing education system and equity", Russia-"We bring back Soviet anthem and state controlled media, Nationalism will keep us warm, we do not have to fight corruption and ancient industrial base".

Love for Railroads: India-"We love our railroads", Russia-"We will develop our Siberian railroad".

Love for colorful decorations: India-"Even our truck cabins look like a Parisian doll-house", Russia-"Even our homes look like Indian truck cabins".

Of course there are differences also, Russians love melancholic music and Indians happy music. All in all, I think mentally Russians can do co-operation better with Indians than with Chinese.

Why don't your Finnish or European Ambassadors in Pakistan tell the same to Pakistani rulers by conducing an open free for all press meet?

AFAIK no such mushy sentiments were ever expressed to Pakistani military rulers by NATO or EU partners during or after cold war time.

Only when the terror dog they bred and fed in Pakistan came back to bite them , they are giving some lectures (and F-16s side by side) to Pakistan.

Is this what is your idea of foreign policy?

Remember just six months before Obama was the chief of Hillary-Robin Raphel terror-NGO joint.
http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/11/11/when_russia_told_robin_raphel_to_stop_teaching_india_39639.html

The media is abuzz about veteran US diplomat Robin Raphel getting caught in the counter-espionage net. Many former Indian diplomats blame her for towing the pro-Pakistan line, which prevented New Delhi and Washington from developing their relations with full throttle.

A former Foreign Secretary and India's Ambassador to Washington recently recalled that talking to her was like talking to a Pakistani diplomat.

Whatever is the reality that the probe by the US counterintelligence will show, her pushy anti-India stance had once forced Moscow to tell her to stop 'teaching India.'
Raphel was then Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian Affairs in the Clinton Administration and used to frequently visit Moscow for bilateral consultations with her counterparts in the Russian Foreign Ministry.

It is believed that she had played some role in formulating certain pro-Pakistan statements emanating from Moscow, which raised hackles in New Delhi, casting doubts about Russia's true intentions about India. Russia's pro-West liberal Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev was in power at that time.

Many still remember the 'cryogenic deal' with India, when under the US pressure Moscow backtracked on the agreement signed by the government of Mikhail Gorbachev for the transfer of cryogenic technology to Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), casting a long shadow of doubt on the future of bilateral India-Russia defence and technological cooperation.

However, things changed after President Boris Yeltsin in January 1996 appointed the seasoned Russian scholar-cum-intelligence chief, Academician Yevgeny Primakov as his Foreign Minister.

пустым не оставлять!!
Sergey Lavrov predicts historians may coin new term: Primakov Doctrine
It was sometime in mid-1996 when Raphel visited Moscow for consultations on South Asia, a senior foreign ministry official, who was Russia's new pointman at the US-Russian consultations frankly told her to stop 'teaching India.'

"We in Russia with our one thousand year old history and you with your little over two century long history have no moral right to teach and preach to India, a living, over five thousand year old civilisation," the Russian foreign ministry official told Raphel.

Since, I was told about this episode in a private conversation and off the record, I will not be able to disclose the Russian diplomat's identity, as he is no more among us in this world. I can only describe him as a true Russian nationalist and a great friend of India, who always came forward to help the members of the Indian community in the initial period after the Soviet collapse.

Modi was never allowed to set foot in US or Europe , giving scant regard to millions of Gujrathis who voted him as CM.The riots were investigated by SC appointed SIT and he was given a clean chit made no little difference.At that time none of the EU guys gave two hoots to the democratic process of India or SC instituted SIT's clean chit.

the moment Modi became PM ,Raphel was caught and now Modi is called ,"a man of action".

Obama as for as Indo-US relations are concerned is not a man of conviction.

But Modi visited Russia , Japan and China many times.

So this lecturing on democracy is not foreign policy is all about. India as usual will look for its best interests. Modi did not had any grudge against any one and promptly invited Obama for R-day chief guest.

In the same way if Russians offer 20 or so n-plants which satisfy our safety concerns , we are not going to lecture Putin about democracy or finland's concern for Ukraine.

Certainly that is not the way foreign policy is conducted on Planet Earth . In Nuclear power plant , Oil and gas, generic pharma, defence,diamond and chemical industries there are thousands of ways to increase co operation to the benfit of both India Russia.

That is what Putin and Modi will discuss. Not love for truck cabins and affinity for rail roads. Modi is discussing bullet trains with japan and China as well.

Similarly when Chinese leader came modi did not lecture on democracy to him also and went about quietly finding deals that will benefit both even in the face of grave border incursion provocation.

Our past PM MMS has openly acknowledged russian help in Arihant N sub project. So our warmth for Russia is not based on traits you list or for the shared concern of "protecting democracy world wide."

If we do that ,China will walk away with all the Oil and gas resource and high end military tech of russia. Will Finland help us out to compensate for this?

Your attitude in this forum is certainly not a good pointer towards that end.

 

[Ray]

I hope you show him how open and working your democratic system is. Maybe also show how different religions and ethnic groups live side by side peacefully. Tell him that it is what also Russians European neighbors want. Nothing else. Ok, you have your own border problems, but at least you could try. Also tell him how you have dealed with your past and have come to terms with UK also.

Why should India show Putin how democracy works?

What makes you feel that we should hate the British.

In Hindu philosophy, forgiveness has been defined as the unaffected condition of the mind of a person, even while being reviled and chastised. Forgiveness has also been described as tolerance and absence of agitation of the mind even though there is cause of agitation.
Link

Understand India and then postulate with all the pontification at your command.



Is it for India to suggest what the US, UK, China or any other country including postage stamp nations with population less than an India city how to run their country?

We are not in the game of spreading 'Freedom and Democracy' and the 'Indian way of life'.

Each to what suits them and their citizens best.

 

[ersakthivel]

Much better.

Obama ji is coming next and getting whole pumpkin....!

Remember just six months before Obama was the chief of Hillary-Robin Raphel terror-NGO joint.

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/11/11/when_russia_told_robin_raphel_to_stop_teaching_india_39639.html

The media is abuzz about veteran US diplomat Robin Raphel getting caught in the counter-espionage net. Many former Indian diplomats blame her for towing the pro-Pakistan line, which prevented New Delhi and Washington from developing their relations with full throttle.

A former Foreign Secretary and India's Ambassador to Washington recently recalled that talking to her was like talking to a Pakistani diplomat.

Whatever is the reality that the probe by the US counterintelligence will show, her pushy anti-India stance had once forced Moscow to tell her to stop 'teaching India.'
Raphel was then Assistant Secretary of State for South Asian Affairs in the Clinton Administration and used to frequently visit Moscow for bilateral consultations with her counterparts in the Russian Foreign Ministry.

It is believed that she had played some role in formulating certain pro-Pakistan statements emanating from Moscow, which raised hackles in New Delhi, casting doubts about Russia's true intentions about India. Russia's pro-West liberal Foreign Minister Andrei Kozyrev was in power at that time.

Many still remember the 'cryogenic deal' with India, when under the US pressure Moscow backtracked on the agreement signed by the government of Mikhail Gorbachev for the transfer of cryogenic technology to Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO), casting a long shadow of doubt on the future of bilateral India-Russia defence and technological cooperation.

However, things changed after President Boris Yeltsin in January 1996 appointed the seasoned Russian scholar-cum-intelligence chief, Academician Yevgeny Primakov as his Foreign Minister.

пустым не оставлять!!
Sergey Lavrov predicts historians may coin new term: Primakov Doctrine
It was sometime in mid-1996 when Raphel visited Moscow for consultations on South Asia, a senior foreign ministry official, who was Russia's new pointman at the US-Russian consultations frankly told her to stop 'teaching India.'

"We in Russia with our one thousand year old history and you with your little over two century long history have no moral right to teach and preach to India, a living, over five thousand year old civilisation," the Russian foreign ministry official told Raphel.

Since, I was told about this episode in a private conversation and off the record, I will not be able to disclose the Russian diplomat's identity, as he is no more among us in this world. I can only describe him as a true Russian nationalist and a great friend of India, who always came forward to help the members of the Indian community in the initial period after the Soviet collapse.

Just tell me what do you expect from coming Obama visit.

other than figurative , sentimental speeches about ties between democracies I expect nothing concrete is in the works.

Obama as for as Indo-US relations are concerned is not a man of conviction.

During most of Obama presidency US ran a Hillary-raphel NGO-terror joint on India and Modi.

Modi was never allowed to set foot in US or Europe , giving scant regard to millions of Gujrathis who voted him as CM.The riots were investigated by SC appointed SIT and he was given a clean chit made no little difference.

At that time none of the EU , US guys gave two hoots to the democratic process of India or SC instituted SIT's clean chit.

The moment Modi became PM ,Raphel was caught and now Modi is called ,"a man of action".


Modi did not had any grudge against any one and promptly invited Obama for R-day chief guest.

In the same way if Russians offer 20 or so n-plants which satisfy our safety concerns , deals will be signed , no one is going to wait with pumpkins for Obama.

. In Nuclear power plant , Oil and gas, generic pharma, defence,diamond and chemical industries there are thousands of ways to increase co operation to the benfit of both India Russia. Modi will pursue them. Most of them will be in government to government level.

None of these opportunities are going to be present for us in Obama visit. Indo-Us relations are mostly private sector led. Govts here can't dictate to private sector to sign delas. it all depends on how Modi govt continues with its pro business economic policies.


Our past PM MMS has openly acknowledged russian help in Arihant N sub project. So our warmth for Russia is based on common strategic interests

 

[Zebra]

Why only blame UPA?

Because they are the culprits. Politically they can't do anything to Modi.

They choose US ban, at least they can defame Modi internationally and at home.

It takes two hands to clap. Why did the US listen to UPA?

Because UPA was in power at that time in India. And if US wants Indian big ticket business then they have to make UPA happy.

'Ban on Modi' was the best bet and US used it in its place.

Moreover, why did they bother to interfere in what happens within India?

Sir, as of yet, US has that capability to perform the role of 'world police'.

And as of yet, no one challenged it.

It will be all different story, if some country "challenge" US on its 'world police' role and emerge as new 'world police'.

Till then we got our uncle, enjoy with it.

BTW, it was US who forced India to have MMS as finance minister in 90s.

At that time, it was good for India or not.

Do you not feel offended that the US constantly tries to preach everyone what to do and what not to do? I certainly do.

I look at all angles, cultural, historical, ideological, and geopolitical.

India should remain neutral, but if it has to choose, geopolitically, between US and Russia, what answer do I get?

I ask my heart, and I get the answer, Russia.
I ask my head, and I still the get same answer, Russia.

That's probably just me.

Sir, then why no good news about FGFA.

 

[DingDong]

Crimea leader makes a surprise visit to India | Al Jazeera America

Modi is also setting the stage for a more significant visit, when U.S. President Barack Obama comes to New Delhi in late January. Obama will attend India's Republic Day celebration, which marks the day that India's constitution came into effect and officially turned India into a democracy. U.S. diplomats like to emphasize the natural friendship between "the world's largest and the world's oldest democracies." But within India's foreign policy establishment, the U.S. is "not considered reliable," Guruswamy said. "America was hostile to us for a long time." As this mini-drama reveals, India does not want any of its allies to take its friendship for granted.

 

[Zebra]

Remember just six months before Obama was the chief of Hillary-Robin Raphel terror-NGO joint.

Modi was never allowed to set foot in US or Europe , giving scant regard to millions of Gujrathis who voted him as CM.The riots were investigated by SC appointed SIT and he was given a clean chit made no little difference.

the moment Modi became PM ,Raphel was caught and now Modi is called ,"a man of action".

Obama as for as Indo-US relations are concerned is not a man of conviction.

"In Politics there are no permanent friends or foes", as we say it in national politics.

The same apply for international politics also.

 

[Kharavela]

Is it for India to suggest what the US, UK, China or any other country including postage stamp nations with population less than an India city how to run their country?

Perfect description "Postage Stamp Nation". Love this.

 

[ersakthivel]

Because they are the culprits. Politically they can't do anything to Modi.

They choose US ban, at least they can defame Modi internationally and at home.




Because UPA was in power at that time in India. And if US wants Indian big ticket business then they have to make UPA happy.

'Ban on Modi' was the best bet and US used it in its place.



Sir, as of yet, US has that capability to perform the role of 'world police'.

And as of yet, no one challenged it.

It will be all different story, if some country "challenge" US on its 'world police' role and emerge as new 'world police'.

Till then we got our uncle, enjoy with it.

BTW, it was US who forced India to have MMS as finance minister in 90s.

At that time, it was good for India or not.



Sir, then why no good news about FGFA.

It was our precarious financial situation and the sagacity of Narashima Rao govt which forced MMS as FM on us, which benefited us all.

Govts of Japan, Russia and china invited Modi and still maintained good relations with India.

Why should the US govt alone remain hell bent on banning Modi to please UPA govt?

There is no logic in such statements.

It was the Hillary Clinton- raphel duo which was responsible for policies on Modi and India in general. despite the best efforts of many seasoned US officials it was this duo which prevented the closer Indo-Us relations , which climaxed with Devyani Khobragade episode.

In the past, present and future US will continue its efforts to see to that indian high tech defence sector does not grows fast enough.

There is nothing wrong with that. They will offer products, but not the tech. Our best bet is to maximize our relations with all great powers and increase the scope of our economic , military and diplomatic developments.

So US or Russia , we must conduct foreign policy with the aim of maximizing our benefits , without getting carried away by the symbolisms .

There is a tremendous potential for Indo-Us relation , which has no implications for Indo-Russian relations, virtually in all spheres of economic and cultural activities. that is what we should look for.

FGFA needs very deep technical negotiations. Modi will certainly push for greater indian R&D and production work share which will take a long time to negotiate.

And considering our IAF's tendency to amalgamate all the tech specs listed on on all top foreign fighters into one product , a simple modification of T-50 into FGFA is not going to cut the ice.

it certainly is not going away as many import lobby inspired planted news carrying "defence journos " want us to beleive.

 

[ersakthivel]

"In Politics there are no permanent friends or foes", as we say it in national politics.

The same apply for international politics also.

I hope the same applies to india's relations with Russia also. Hope you understand that.

 

[jouni]

How dare you to insult Indian women in this forum ? Apologize OR be prepared for the consequence. You should not forget the "Second Strike" capability of India.

cc @Ray; @Kunal Biswas; @ersakthivel; @sgarg;

It was meant as a compliment, that lovely Indian ladies fall for Vladimir´s Slavic macho charm What could be better for the friendship between your two countries

 

[sgarg]

@Casper, India has a significant role to play in the world. Millions of people outside India - people of Indian origin, are connected to India and look for leadership of India, besides people of India. Even India's neighbours look for leadership of India.

This leadership was lacking when Manmohan Singh was Prime Minister.

It is not about being World Police or superpower. India does not need to be world police. India does not pretend to know the solution to every problem.

India is willing to play its part in international organizations to solve world problems - like poverty, diseases, environmental degradation, insurgency etc.

We have seen that even USA has not been effective in solving many problems. There is no single solution, and no single solver.