US offers to co-develop advanced Javelin missile with India

[p2prada]

bro - your reply was to dragon-lizard, why bother to tell them all that ?
i would have just smiled and said , ok think what you like ?

This question is in the minds of Indian members too. Similar to doubts raised about FGFA's JV structure and sharing of ToT and also whether Brahmos tech was transferred or not.

Regardless of affiliations, I answer any question I come across posted by any member as long as it is sensible. I ignore the posts that don't add value to the discussion or sometimes I ignore the member altogether.

 

[Immanuel]

Two more facts:

1) The system weighs over 20 kg

2) The launcher cost (reusable) is over $120,000, and each missile tube assembly (one-shot) costs $78,000. Those are in 2002 US dollars, so the cost may need to be adjusted for inflation.

They know the Javelin is indeed very expensive. I wouldn't worry much about the weight, the total system weight is around 24 kg is still better any other man portable system our there. The JV for Javelin NG would most likely in order to adress these issues of costs & weight. India has long mastered composites. The work share would most likely have India developing the launcher, composite motor casing + perhaps joint work in the missile propulsion with the US focusing more on the seeker tech & joint effort of software. Final mass production would most likely have both countries assembling the missiles with India supplying US assembly lines with most of the non critical parts and US supplying Indian lines with seekers. Keep costs low on both sides. I am sure system weight can be broguht down to around 18-20kg with increments in range. Keep in mind, such a Javelin NG would have around 5000 launchers + 40000+missile production in India alone and US too would have thousand of order. The entire system will cost much lower due to large production volume

I'd say go for it, let's ensure the work share is fair

 

[Neil]

US offer to co-develop next-generation Javelin antitank capability


In a move reflective of growing defence ties between the two, sealed during last week's visit here of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the US has made India a "groundbreaking collaborative defence proposal" to co-develop with India a next-generation Javelin antitank capability, according to a top defence official.

The proposal addresses a key military requirement for both armies and is an unprecedented offer the US has made unique to India, Deputy Defence Secretary Ash Carter,said Monday at the Centre for American Progress, a Washington think tank.

The Javelin is a manportable, fire-and-forget, antitank missile employed by dismounted infantry to defeat current and future threat armoured combat vehicles.

Carter, who with Indian National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon heads the two countries' Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTI), said the US is committed to continuing to put new ideas on the table. He was reviewing Friday's "successful meeting" between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Barack Obama, "the strong and rapidly growing defense partnership between the US and India, as we execute"¦. the rebalance, so-called, to the Asia Pacific region."

Asserting that US and India are "destined to be partners on the world stage," he said, "we're each big, complicated democracies. We move slowly, but over the long run we also move surely. And that to me is the trajectory for us and India in the defence area."

During a trip to India last month he had delivered a second round of potential capability areas of cooperation proposed by US industry. In India, Carter also made sure to hear from senior Indian industry representatives about their ideas for increasing private-sector partnerships.

The push to reach the next level of defence collaboration and co-development with India comes after 15 months of effort between the countries to overcome bureaucratic obstacles to such work under DTI, Carter said. Among the advances made possible through DTI, Carter said, involved export controls. "We have demonstrated repeatedly that we can release sensitive technology to India," Carter said. "We've adapted our system in ways that will speed our release process for India," he added, "especially in the Department of Defence, recognizing that for . all partners this process is subject to case-by-case review and there will always be some technologies that we will keep to ourselves."

Areas of progress include technology transfer, licensing agreements, license exceptions, end-use monitoring and others. "We've also taken unprecedented steps to identify forward-leaning proposals by industry, from industry on both sides for defence items to be co-produced and-the true measure of our common goal-co-developed by the US and India," Carter said.

These include a maritime helicopter, a naval gun, a surface-to-air missile system and a scatterable antitank system, all of which were discussed with Indian officials during his recent visit, he said. "In each instance," Carter noted, "the United States has fast-tracked these projects to ensure that our internal processes are ready to go as soon as the Indian government wants to move forward."

US and Indian research and development experts also play a critical role in areas that include the cognitive sciences and others in which the defence department would incentivise increased cooperation by US defence researchers, the deputy secretary said. "I let the Indian government know last week that I will be incentivising US researchers who seek and find Indian partners in key research areas we identified previously," he added. "We'll ensure that those innovative projects receive priority funding. This is an approach we've only ever taken with the United Kingdom and Australia, and now India will join that company."


US offer to co-develop next-generation Javelin antitank capability | idrw.org

 

[W.G.Ewald]

US makes India groundbreaking defence offer | Business Standard

Asserting that US and India are "destined to be partners on the world stage," he said, "we're each big, complicated democracies. We move slowly, but over the long run we also move surely. And that to me is the trajectory for us and India in the defence area."

During a trip to India last month he had delivered a second round of potential capability areas of cooperation proposed by US industry. In India, Carter also made sure to hear from senior Indian industry representatives about their ideas for increasing private-sector partnerships.

The push to reach the next level of defence collaboration and co-development with India comes after 15 months of effort between the countries to overcome bureaucratic obstacles to such work under DTI, Carter said.

Among the advances made possible through DTI, Carter said, involved export controls. "We have demonstrated repeatedly that we can release sensitive technology to India," Carter said.

"We've adapted our system in ways that will speed our release process for India," he added, "especially in the Department of Defence, recognizing that for . all partners this process is subject to case-by-case review and there will always be some technologies that we will keep to ourselves."

Areas of progress include technology transfer, licensing agreements, license exceptions, end-use monitoring and others.

"We've also taken unprecedented steps to identify forward-leaning proposals by industry, from industry on both sides for defence items to be co-produced and-the true measure of our common goal-co-developed by the US and India," Carter said.

These include a maritime helicopter, a naval gun, a surface-to-air missile system and a scatterable antitank system, all of which were discussed with Indian officials during his recent visit, he said.

"In each instance," Carter noted, "the United States has fast-tracked these projects to ensure that our internal processes are ready to go as soon as the Indian government wants to move forward."

US and Indian research and development experts also play a critical role in areas that include the cognitive sciences and others in which the defence department would incentivize increased cooperation by US defence researchers, the deputy secretary said.

"I let the Indian government know last week that I will be incentivizing US researchers who seek and find Indian partners in key research areas we identified previously," he added.

"We'll ensure that those innovative projects receive priority funding. This is an approach we've only ever taken with the United Kingdom and Australia, and now India will join that company.

 

[Neil]

US submits list of 10 defence technologies for transfer to India


The US has submitted a list of 10 defence technologies for transfer to India, bringing it into a small group of closest allies with which America shares such sensitive details without export control.
Informed Indian sources confirmed that the Pentagon has submitted a list of 10 sensitive technologies for transfer from US to India.

New Delhi is "reviewing" these offers and would get back to the United States soon, with its response, they said.

Meanwhile, the US has sought opinion from its strong defence industry to identify next set of technologies which could be shared and transferred to India.

According to US sources, the number of such defence technology transfers could cross 90.

Deputy secretary of defence, Ashton Carter, who is leading unleashing of the defence ties between India and the US through the defence trade and technology initiative, said the US has submitted a white paper explaining where India falls within US export control system.

"The paper we sent them covered several key areas from export controls rules themselves to end use monitoring and the need to identify proposals for co-production and co-development," he said at the Center for American Progress.

"We have demonstrated repeatedly that we can release sensitive technology to India. We've adapted our system in ways that will speed our release process for India, especially in the department of defence, recognizing that for, of course, all partners, this process is subject to case-by-case review and there will always be some technologies that we will keep to ourselves," Carter said.

"We changed our mindset around technology transfer to India in the department of defence from a culture of presumptive no to one of presumptive yes," he said.

Asserting that India has been brought at part with closet of its allies, Carter said the Obama Administration has now included India in the list of "so called Group of Eight" that receives the best of the technologies without export control.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who recently met US President Barack Obama, has said steps have been taken to expand the India-US ties and move away from a buyer-seller cooperation to joint development and production in the field of defence.


US submits list of 10 defence technologies for transfer to India | idrw.org

 

[Ray]

Take up on the offer.

It will give sleepless night to the Chinese.

 

[drkrn]

Take up on the offer.

It will give sleepless night to the Chinese.

and nights full of crying to pakistanis

 

[dealwithit]

India Pursues Indigenous ATGM Amid Javelin Talks



NEW DELHI — India has begun working on a homemade, man-portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), despite a US proposal to co-produce the Javelin ATGM.

Defence Ministry sources said the homemade project — a third generation Nag missile — is unlikely to derail the proposed Javelin deal, which is in only the preliminary stages of negotiation with the US. A scientist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed the Nag is lighter than the Javelin.

In what one US Embassy diplomat in India described as a groundbreaking initiative in India's ties with Washington, US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has proposed that India co-develop — rather than merely buy — the Javelin missile.

The Indian Army has a pressing demand for more than 20,000 third generation man-portable ATGMs, and all attempts to procure them from overseas over the past eight years has yielded no results.

Israel's offer of its Spike ATGM was rejected in 2007 because it was the only vendor to respond to the tender. The US, meanwhile, refused to transfer technology after a proposal to buy the Javelin on a government-to-government basis. Indian MoD sources said that last year, the US refused to sell Javelin in adequate numbers to India due to " international strategic and geopolitical considerations."

The full details of Washington's latest Javelin proposal have not been released, but MoD sources said the US wants to sell around 6,000 units within one year of the signing of the contract. In the future, the US would explore co-production of the Javelin and, at a later stage, work on the co-development of an ATGM tailor-made for India.

The US would also transfer Javelin technology, including the manufacture of the warhead, rocket motor, propellant, guidance and seeker, but no algorithms for guidance, which an Indian Army official said is the core to any guidance system.

A team from Raytheon and Lockheed Martin has briefed the Indian MoD on the possibilities to be explored in the Javelin project, Indian MoD sources said.

A Lockheed Martin executive said Javelin is better than any other man-portable ATGM because it is ejected non-explosively, which is useful to the Indian Army in higher terrain. The executive, however, declined to discuss details of Carter's proposal.

DRDO, meanwhile, has begun work on the homemade Nag missile, which would weigh only 16 kilograms compared to Javelin's 26 kilograms, the DRDO scientist claimed.

The man-portable version of the Nag missile is simpler than the vehicle-mounted version and, as such, could be developed in the next three years, the scientist said.

An Indian Army official said everyone, including DRDO, would be happy to get Javelin as nearly 25 years of work on the Nag ATGM has yet to result in a mature, third generation ATGM.

The Indian Army uses second generation, French-made Milan and Russian-made Konkurs ATGMs, which have a range of less than 2,000 meters.
India Pursues Indigenous ATGM Amid Javelin Talks | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[drkrn]

India Pursues Indigenous ATGM Amid Javelin Talks



NEW DELHI — India has begun working on a homemade, man-portable anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), despite a US proposal to co-produce the Javelin ATGM.

Defence Ministry sources said the homemade project — a third generation Nag missile — is unlikely to derail the proposed Javelin deal, which is in only the preliminary stages of negotiation with the US. A scientist with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) claimed the Nag is lighter than the Javelin.

In what one US Embassy diplomat in India described as a groundbreaking initiative in India's ties with Washington, US Deputy Defense Secretary Ashton Carter has proposed that India co-develop — rather than merely buy — the Javelin missile.

The Indian Army has a pressing demand for more than 20,000 third generation man-portable ATGMs, and all attempts to procure them from overseas over the past eight years has yielded no results.

Israel's offer of its Spike ATGM was rejected in 2007 because it was the only vendor to respond to the tender. The US, meanwhile, refused to transfer technology after a proposal to buy the Javelin on a government-to-government basis. Indian MoD sources said that last year, the US refused to sell Javelin in adequate numbers to India due to " international strategic and geopolitical considerations."

The full details of Washington's latest Javelin proposal have not been released, but MoD sources said the US wants to sell around 6,000 units within one year of the signing of the contract. In the future, the US would explore co-production of the Javelin and, at a later stage, work on the co-development of an ATGM tailor-made for India.

The US would also transfer Javelin technology, including the manufacture of the warhead, rocket motor, propellant, guidance and seeker, but no algorithms for guidance, which an Indian Army official said is the core to any guidance system.

A team from Raytheon and Lockheed Martin has briefed the Indian MoD on the possibilities to be explored in the Javelin project, Indian MoD sources said.

A Lockheed Martin executive said Javelin is better than any other man-portable ATGM because it is ejected non-explosively, which is useful to the Indian Army in higher terrain. The executive, however, declined to discuss details of Carter's proposal.

DRDO, meanwhile, has begun work on the homemade Nag missile, which would weigh only 16 kilograms compared to Javelin's 26 kilograms, the DRDO scientist claimed.

The man-portable version of the Nag missile is simpler than the vehicle-mounted version and, as such, could be developed in the next three years, the scientist said.

An Indian Army official said everyone, including DRDO, would be happy to get Javelin as nearly 25 years of work on the Nag ATGM has yet to result in a mature, third generation ATGM.

The Indian Army uses second generation, French-made Milan and Russian-made Konkurs ATGMs, which have a range of less than 2,000 meters.
India Pursues Indigenous ATGM Amid Javelin Talks | Defense News | defensenews.com

any info about the range?

 

[dealwithit]

any info about the range?

You can get desired results here

Nag (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[drkrn]

You can get desired results here

Nag (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

range was not mentioned about man portable versions thats the reason to ask

 

[dealwithit]

Some what i remember from previous articles(long back)

Range is upto 3000mt.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

Do Russian 9K115-2 Metis-M ATGM have wire guided capabilities? I have heard they are used by Hezbollah against Israeli Merkava tanks.

 

[IndianPatriot]

We need to make some more powerful stuffs with better range and blast radius.. but in its class its better.

 

[Sridhar]

India, US may make fourth generation Javelins

The ice seems to be breaking. Coming slowly out of an environment of mistrust which prompted major restrictions on defence technology transfers, the US wants to jointly produce with India its fourth generation of Javelin anti-tank guided missiles.

Washington has also upgraded its initial offer of a part transfer to a full transfer of technology for third-generation Javelins.

The technology transfer will include the 'seeker' software — which helps home in on the target.

The Defence Acquisition Council headed by defence minister AK Antony has asked the Indian Army to consider the US-made Javelin along with Israeli Spike missiles. The Javelin purchase will feature in meetings during Army Chief General Bikram Singh's trip to the US early next month.

India, US may make fourth generation Javelins | idrw.org

 

[rugved]

The Russian ministry of defence might be having sleepless nights. :bounce:

 

[Free Karma]

Indian Army gives Thumps Down to US offer of Javelin ATGM | idrw.org

US bid to Hard sell FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) has been given " Thumps Down " by India Army , who have shown clear displeasure of Repeated flip flop of US officials on possible sale of Javelin ATGM and have suggested Indian MOD to go for Israeli Spike ATGM instead .

According to report prepared by Times of India , Army was irked by US flip flops , When Javelin ATGM was first selected, United states refused to provide Transfer of Technology (TOT) to India, Indian Army tested Israeli Spike ATGM which came with TOT for local manufacturing in India , later Defence secretary Chuck Hagel on his visit to India offered TOT to Co-Develop Javelin ATGM in India and also offered Co-Development of Next Generation Javelin ATGM with India .

Indian Army is not amused by new offer by United states and have told Indian MOD , that TOT offered by United states are limited and will not fulfill our requirements and Israeli Spike ATGM is also much cheaper then US developed Javelin ATGM . DRDO to is developing light Man portable NAG ATGM which will be ready in next 3 years , NAG ATGM according to DRDO will be lighter then any 3rd Generation ATGM out their and also will acclimatized for Indian weather conditions .

Indian Army lacks modern 3rd Generation ATGM and still uses 2nd Generation French made Milan ATGM ,last year Indian Defence Ministry has decided to buy 4,500 Milan 2T anti-tank guided missiles for $200 million. Milan is been produced at state-owned Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL) under license from MBDA. According to Indian armies own admission Milan 2T, despite having tandem warhead, may not be able to defeat the T80UD reactive armor, the tank used by the Pakistan Army which has multiple layers and have been pushing for purchase of 3rd Generation ATGM for some years now .

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

ok now we are acting like a true buyers with hard cash in a buyers market

 

[Bhadra]

Settle for SPIKE , get TOT and improve on it ...

Javalin has its own problems..

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Govt to take call on key defence deals worth Rs 70,000 crore - The Times of India

Govt to take call on key defence deals worth Rs 70,000 crore

NEW DELHI: The government is all set to take a call on two critical but long-delayed projects to plug operational military gaps in conventional diesel-electric submarines and anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), which together will cost well upwards of Rs 70,000 crore over the next decade or so.

Defence ministry sources said the two projects would be discussed by the defence acquisitions council (DAC) to be chaired by Arun Jaitley on Saturday. "Though there will be other items on the agenda, including the order for another 12 Dornier aircraft, the submarine and ATGM projects are likely to be the big-ticket ones," said a source.

Both the long-term projects will involve indigenous production with foreign collaboration in tune with PM Narendra Modi's "Make in India" policy. All the six new advanced stealth submarines, armed with both land-attack missile capabilities and air-independent propulsion for greater underwater endurance, will now be built in India, as was first reported by TOI last month.

Similarly, the Army project involves a direct acquisition of around 900 launchers and 3,200 missiles of third-generation ATGMs or "tank-killers", followed by transfer of technology (ToT) to defence PSU Bharat Dynamics for large-scale manufacture. In all, at least 1,914 launchers and 37,860 missiles will be required to equip the Army's 382 infantry battalions and 44 mechanised infantry units.

Significantly, MoD sources said the Army has pitched for the Israeli "Spike" ATGM over the American "Javelin" missile in the DAC. The US has been hard-selling the Javelin in recent months, with defence secretary Chuck Hagel in August offering not only to "co-produce" the ATGMs but also "co-develop" its fourth-generation version with India.

But it was the earlier reluctance of the US for full ToT which led India to consider and extensively test the Israeli Spike ATGM. "The Army feels the latest US offer to co-produce and co-develop the Javelin is not very clear and not likely to meet our ToT requirements. The Israeli Spike, in turn, has already undergone our trials. It's also cheaper than the Javelin," said the source.

The global tender for the Navy's project to build the six new-generation stealth submarines, in turn, is yet to be even floated despite getting "acceptance of necessity" way back in November 2007 due to political apathy and bureaucratic bottlenecks.

The original plan was that the first two submarines would be imported to save time, given the country's rapidly-depleting underwater combat arm, with the next three being constructed at Mazagon Docks (Mumbai) and one at Hindustan Shipyard (Visakhapatnam) with ToT from the foreign company eventually selected.

But with the Navy now agreeing that all the six submarines will be built in India, there is hope for the DAC's quick approval to float the tender or Request for Proposal (RFP). It will, after all, take at least three years to select the foreign collaborator, and another seven to eight years thereafter for the first submarine to roll out in the complex project.