Under-defended India

[Kunal Biswas]

Corruption ..

... but still why we are depending on others ????

 

[ersakthivel]

Just imagine 270 MKIs and 200 Rafales....ohh my god what a nightmare for any enemy....

How many SUKHOI clones and J-31s and j-20s will china field against this 470 fighters?

mostly they will field twice the number by the time we finished purchasing these 200 RAFALE at a massive 30 billion dollar cost(with the way the rupee is tanking it may even top 30 billions).

Filling the skies with local indian made Tejas and quickly going for tejas mk-3 with stealth features is the only option for IAF.

Hoping that 100 odd FGFA's will be armor of God is simply not an option.

In war time getting supplies across the sea is tricky stuff too. Even trickier is expecting Russia to come to our aid like a Knight in shining armor, Soviet had an INDO-Soviet strategic accord committing their help in case of war on Indian borders, That treaty was diluted with Indo-Russia friendship treaty by Boris Yelstin era itself with next to nothing strategic guarantees.

If people can count so much on Russia , Can they explain why Russia is selling thousands of AL-31 engines to China?

And what is the engine on the back of the JF-17?

 

[vishwaprasad]

How many SUKHOI clones and J-31s and j-20s will china field against this 470 fighters?

mostly they will field twice the number by the time we finished purchasing these 200 RAFALE at a massive 30 billion dollar cost(with the way the rupee is tanking it may even top 30 billions).

Filling the skies with local indian made Tejas and quickly going for tejas mk-3 with stealth features is the only option for IAF.

Hoping that 100 odd FGFA's will be armor of God is simply not an option.

In war time getting supplies across the sea is tricky stuff too. Even trickier is expecting Russia to come to our aid like a Knight in shining armor, Soviet had an INDO-Soviet strategic accord committing their help in case of war on Indian borders, That treaty was diluted with Indo-Russia friendship treaty by Boris Yelstin era itself with next to nothing strategic guarantees.

If people can count so much on Russia , Can they explain why Russia is selling thousands of AL-31 engines to China?

And what is the engine on the back of the JF-17?

Lol...when it comes to India she will not be able to deploy all fighters against China keeping Paki factor in mind but when you guys start overestimating China they can deploy twice or thrice number of fighters against India...that time they do not have to worry about Japan, Taiwan, US pacific fleets...common cut this crap....

LCA MK3 with stealth features??? well as an Indian I would really love see this happning..anyway lets wait till we "officially induct" those 20 odd Mk1s....

I am once again firm on my belief that there will not be a full scale Russia-Germany or US-Vietnam type of war will happen between India and China...if it happens then I agree with you and KB that we are at disadvantageous position....but considering both countries military power and terrain both countries are unlikely to go for an all out war and ruin themselves for one small peace of land....most likely scenario is China will try take land by Kargil style of war and if India reacts with determination then with those MKIs, Rafales, Phalcons, Green Pine, Apaches, C-17 and 130s we will kick both PLA and PLAAF....

 

[HeinzGud]

we have enough manpower, we have enough resources ... we have enough talent to build our own weapons ... but still why we are depending on others ????

Mostly because of the lack of base for the defense industries IMO. Building perfect fighting machines like a gun, tank of aircraft is not an easy job. It takes an awful lot of time to master even the basics of the trade. US, USSR and other producers of military hardware have 100+ years of experience behind their backs. China is having close to 40-50 years of experience and only even now they have begun to perfect their products.

Under current circumstances it won't be an easy job for India to match China but India has the capacity. India only need is the strong will and commitment.

 

[ersakthivel]

Lol...when it comes to India she will not be able to deploy all fighters against China keeping Paki factor in mind but when you guys start overestimating China they can deploy twice or thrice number of fighters against India...that time they do not have to worry about Japan, Taiwan, US pacific fleets...common cut this crap....

LCA MK3 with stealth features??? well as an Indian I would really love see this happning..anyway lets wait till we "officially induct" those 20 odd Mk1s....

I am once again firm on my belief that there will not be a full scale Russia-Germany or US-Vietnam type of war will happen between India and China...if it happens then I agree with you and KB that we are at disadvantageous position....but considering both countries military power and terrain both countries are unlikely to go for an all out war and ruin themselves for one small peace of land....most likely scenario is China will try take land by Kargil style of war and if India reacts with determination then with those MKIs, Rafales, Phalcons, Green Pine, Apaches, C-17 and 130s we will kick both PLA and PLAAF....

So in your opinion the GOI has already entered into mutual defence treaty with japan and Russia , so you are certain that once china has deployed all it's fighters japanese and russians are going to invade China,

First google about the previous 1962 war with china , which happened under the shadows of the Cuban missile crisis and with tacit support from the same holier than holy cow strategic partner of India namely Soviet union,

totally ignorant guys like you have no knowledge about the shifting sands of international diplomatic relations and continue to believe Peter Pan level stuff that is called strategic defence assistance,

Failing to learn about that Nehru died a heart broken man. So when we have the practical means like tejas , mk-1 and Mk-2 and easily doable Mk-3 with stealth features only fools like IAF top brass will look to Russian and french shores like a servile dog unable to enjoy the freedom given by it's master.

First of all you get it into your juvenile head that China will be one of the largest buyer of Russain crude in the decades to come and a short border war with the loss of Arunachal pradesh , Sikkim and Assam along with seven sisters of the east for india is not a back breaking strategic set back for the Putin's Russia which is totally pragmatic to the core and even selling fighter engines to Pak!!!!!!!

No full scale war is going to happen mate!!!

What is going to happen is a short brutal war with entire north east gettin cut off from india at the chicken neck,tell me who in the world capitols like Washington, Moscow and Tokyo is going to die weepin if the those small north eastern states are cut off from India and the chinese breathing down the neck of Gangetic plains of India?

that is why IA is raising a Himalayan strike corps based in Assam moving away from it's decades old policy of just making do with pivot corps.

And which demon in your head makes you believe the Chines have no answers for the numerically inferior IAF sukhois and RAFALEs? have you gone nuts? Who will launch a war without contingency plan to take on what the enemy is going to throw at you?

Right now five or six hundred tejas fighter with whatever Mk ,( I, II, III does not matter ) are the only solid insurance against this kind of invasion in the coming decade or two. So simply salivating at the brouchere specs of those mighty foreign fighters that cannot be repeated in Indian hot and humid theater is not a juvenile option for IAF.

Rupee is on course to touch 70 or 80 per dolar in very near term. So if we take into lifecylce costs for each RAFALE we field we can field four or five tejas fighter of any MK.

For your info RAFALE and tejas have both the same radome dia, same long range BVR , same top speed right now, (tejas mk-2 and 3 will beat RAFALE for topspeeds is another matter.)

So do you realize for the same close to 20 odd billions of dollars we are itching to deposit in the Dassault bank account we can have four times more radar power, EW counter measure for each ton of BVR missile load,

In air combat this is the point that counts, Simply loading all the seven tons munition in a single fighter is not a better choice than having more number of similar capacity fighters in air with many times more radar numbers and EW counter measure power,

because Insuch a short Indo-China border war most of the action is going to be with in the range of Tejas fighter and most of the chines fighters that are going to come are eminently shoot downable by tejas of any version, since large scale induction of j-20, J-31 is not going to happen with in a decade or two,

by the time we can have our own FGFA , AMCA fighters to counter them,

So in essence 500 or 600 tejas fighters of any MK are just going to be the Peace makers of international repute in the Himalayan Indo-China border region, Not the three piece suit wearing guys in Tokyo, Moscow and Washington, who won't think twice to throw any one to wolf to satisfy their own interest.

So if china takes some land act of determination by numerically inferior fighters by India alone won't retrieve the situation,

we need the numerical superiority to stop china from contemplating this fool hardy step.After decades of hard work the scientific community of India has given a chance for the first time to defend our own strategic interests and borders without licking any one's foot!!!!!!!!

Throwing it all way by giving piecemeal token orders for Arjun , Tejas and exporting the all hard earned the forex reserves in no real value defence purchase abroad is classic example of shooting ourselves in our foot.

 

[Tshering22]

Yeah right, and Indian actually plans to spend over $100 Billion in the current five year plan. The $100 Billion over 15 years will balloon to $300 Billion by the end of the decade.

Ajai Shukla should wake up and smell the roses.

Unfortuantely, the government must also consider altering its defense plans with more rapid modernization of Indian production facilities keeping in view of the sliding economy and the terrible Rupee-to-Dollar ratio that keeps getting worse as each day passes.

IAF has been out of sync for a long time and has lost its edge. Rather than signing stop-gap contracts for more and more MKIs, the government should immediately deploy Tejas and aim to start a production facility for at least 15 aircraft a year.

 

[Tshering22]

we have enough manpower, we have enough resources ... we have enough talent to build our own weapons ... but still why we are depending on others ????

1- Corrupt, under-the-table commission for MOD ministers, IAF top brass and babus, that will not be possible in Indian or even private production hands to that level.
2- Sarkari PSU mentality of 9-5 system with no corporatized mind-set of work principle.
3- Impossibly long and cumbersome bureaucracy hampering the entire process of work flow.
4- Immature and childish clash of egos between politicians and chief officers which cost the lives of many young officers.

 

[ersakthivel]

Mostly because of the lack of base for the defense industries IMO. Building perfect fighting machines like a gun, tank of aircraft is not an easy job. It takes an awful lot of time to master even the basics of the trade. US, USSR and other producers of military hardware have 100+ years of experience behind their backs. China is having close to 40-50 years of experience and only even now they have begun to perfect their products.

Under current circumstances it won't be an easy job for India to match China but India has the capacity. India only need is the strong will and commitment.

mate , You are talking stuff far above your head!!!!!

Just cool off,

Do you know how many hundreds of fighters India built?The first Sukhoi built with far more amounts of composite has just gone super sonic in it's first flight and Al-31 engine is about to be made here from raw material stage, So what experience we lack that you are tom tomming about?

The first fighter LCA tejas is going to have all the tech that is presently in RAFLE, namely , relaxed static stability, higher amount of composites, one of the lowest clean config RCS, comparable ITR, STR in MK-2 version, and the same RADOME dia (meaning same sized radar with same detection and tracking ranges), with same long range BVR capacity in MK-2.

For your Info tejas mk-2 the first fully developed single engined 4.5th gen fighter in India is in the league of grippen NG.

can you say the same about J-10 and JF-17,

So just cool off before giving some toothless grandfather advice!!!!!!!!

 

[p2prada]

IAF has been out of sync for a long time and has lost its edge. Rather than signing stop-gap contracts for more and more MKIs, the government should immediately deploy Tejas and aim to start a production facility for at least 15 aircraft a year.

A single MKI is more competitive than half a squadron of LCAs.
Even if we order 1000 LCAs, just 200 MKIs are much more dangerous.

Anyway, the bigger issue is LCA is simply not ready. Unless it is ready we cannot talk of series production.

Until the day LCA achieves FOC and sees five years of service, even Bisons will have a field day in a turkey shoot against LCA.

Depending on the future threat perception, IAF can decide whether more LCAs are reasonable or not. As of today LCA orders "may" go up to 178.

Until such large orders come through, HAL cannot increase production beyond 8/year. If such orders come through, then LCA orders may cross 20/year.

So, as of today, orders stand at 40 Mk1s and 8 N-MK1s. Hence 8/year is more than enough for this decade considering Mk2 will be ready only after 2018 or 2020.

 

[vishwaprasad]

So in your opinion the GOI has already entered into mutual defence treaty with japan and Russia , so you are certain that once china has deployed all it's fighters japanese and russians are going to invade China,

First google about the previous 1962 war with china , which happened under the shadows of the Cuban missile crisis and with tacit support from the same holier than holy cow strategic partner of India namely Soviet union,

totally ignorant guys like you have no knowledge about the shifting sands of international diplomatic relations and continue to believe Peter Pan level stuff that is called strategic defence assistance,

Failing to learn about that Nehru died a heart broken man. So when we have the practical means like tejas , mk-1 and Mk-2 and easily doable Mk-3 with stealth features only fools like IAF top brass will look to Russian and french shores like a servile dog unable to enjoy the freedom given by it's master.

First of all you get it into your juvenile head that China will be one of the largest buyer of Russain crude in the decades to come and a short border war with the loss of Arunachal pradesh , Sikkim and Assam along with seven sisters of the east for india is not a back breaking strategic set back for the Putin's Russia which is totally pragmatic to the core and even selling fighter engines to Pak!!!!!!!

No full scale war is going to happen mate!!!

What is going to happen is a short brutal war with entire north east gettin cut off from india at the chicken neck,tell me who in the world capitols like Washington, Moscow and Tokyo is going to die weepin if the those small north eastern states are cut off from India and the chinese breathing down the neck of Gangetic plains of India?

that is why IA is raising a Himalayan strike corps based in Assam moving away from it's decades old policy of just making do with pivot corps.

And which demon in your head makes you believe the Chines have no answers for the numerically inferior IAF sukhois and RAFALEs? have you gone nuts? Who will launch a war without contingency plan to take on what the enemy is going to throw at you?

Right now five or six hundred tejas fighter with whatever Mk ,( I, II, III does not matter ) are the only solid insurance against this kind of invasion in the coming decade or two. So simply salivating at the brouchere specs of those mighty foreign fighters that cannot be repeated in Indian hot and humid theater is not a juvenile option for IAF.

Rupee is on course to touch 70 or 80 per dolar in very near term. So if we take into lifecylce costs for each RAFALE we field we can field four or five tejas fighter of any MK.

For your info RAFALE and tejas have both the same radome dia, same long range BVR , same top speed right now, (tejas mk-2 and 3 will beat RAFALE for topspeeds is another matter.)

So do you realize for the same close to 20 odd billions of dollars we are itching to deposit in the Dassault bank account we can have four times more radar power, EW counter measure for each ton of BVR missile load,

In air combat this is the point that counts, Simply loading all the seven tons munition in a single fighter is not a better choice than having more number of similar capacity fighters in air with many times more radar numbers and EW counter measure power,

because Insuch a short Indo-China border war most of the action is going to be with in the range of Tejas fighter and most of the chines fighters that are going to come are eminently shoot downable by tejas of any version, since large scale induction of j-20, J-31 is not going to happen with in a decade or two,

by the time we can have our own FGFA , AMCA fighters to counter them,

So in essence 500 or 600 tejas fighters of any MK are just going to be the Peace makers of international repute in the Himalayan Indo-China border region, Not the three piece suit wearing guys in Tokyo, Moscow and Washington, who won't think twice to throw any one to wolf to satisfy their own interest.

So if china takes some land act of determination by numerically inferior fighters by India alone won't retrieve the situation,

we need the numerical superiority to stop china from contemplating this fool hardy step.After decades of hard work the scientific community of India has given a chance for the first time to defend our own strategic interests and borders without licking any one's foot!!!!!!!!

Throwing it all way by giving piecemeal token orders for Arjun , Tejas and exporting the all hard earned the forex reserves in no real value defence purchase abroad is classic example of shooting ourselves in our foot.

Lol I never said that we have such cooperation with US, JAPAN or RUSSIA...I am only saying that just like we have to keep something in back up for Pakistan Chinese also cannot come to war with India without having anything in back up....if it was that easy then Chinese would not have let us occupy Arunachal to begin with...even they can retake it today but they know what actual war with India will cost them...its is not just sitting on the forum compare strengths by qty....

At the most it will be limited mountain war fare between 2 countries trying to retake each others territories....when both will realize that its not a good option both will come to discussion table, and in this kind of limited wars I am saying that India has an upper hand as those crazy Rafales are quite capable of bombing the hell out of PLA....

For those 600 LCAs I will go ahead any day with 270 MKIs and 200 Rafales to fight with enemy like China.... 20 odd Mk1s are yet to be officially inducted and you are dreaming about 600 LCA, Mk1 is yet to see fully operational status and you are dreaming about mk3 with stealth features....

its okay LCA being our own fighter nothing bad in having faith and loving it but just because someone does not mention LCA in his imagination of having 270 MKI's and 200 Rafales you don't have to jump every time shouting LCA LCA like a parrot....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just some points ..

================

When you are taking aerial warfare, Your idea is limited to Ground warfare, Don't mix them at first place, Chicoms are not GOI who are willing to limit there own forces as dumb as they are in military affairs..

PLA & PLAAF both have military districts, there are two military districts attached with our boarders, Google about the strength these districts holds and then you may talk about strength comparison ..

WW2 was indeed a war of numbers & quality but such warfare are obsolete and taken by more aggressive and faster form of warfare, What get used to destroyed in weeks now just takes days, The limited war such as '6 day war' was enough to wipe out a Air-force which was 1000 strong fighters ..

From your post you sounding like MKI and Rafale are magic, If that is the case you have lack understanding about balance ration of quality and quantity.. I suggest you get proper education on modern warfare so does Chinese military capabilities ..

I have said things before in this thread, Study that you will have more understanding ..

================


And to pass your argument avoid name calling ..

================
================
================
================

Some of my previous post, Putting them so nothing should be unheard..

In War, Only those win who are able to keep up with causalities, One must able to make fighters at much higher rate than they get shot down, Sadly IAF cannot do this as it rely entirely on foreign fighters which are in majority imported so does there majority of spares..

IAF also have no plans for reserve pilot force either, In case of war, Like fighter one must able to replace pilots..

==================

In modern warfare, Victory lies in factories not at battlefields..

Self reliance is a vital factor which IAF haven't realized yet, And if its not realized soon it will be the cause of major failure ..

Will look incredible formidable, But not all the strength can be used over one front ..

Lets say 150mki & 150 rafales at start , In war the number could go below 100mki and 100 rafales due to combat loses at the same time China will be chunking out 100 J-10 and J-11 a month ..

At the end of the day, Who will have air superiority ? there is not much to guess..

Indian armed forces already have prepared for such a War and the most vulnerable part of ours is we depend on other for arms, If my words are not enough, Ask any defense professional @Ray Sir, @Decklander Sir or Any General he will tell the same & that is the very reason DRDO, ARDE, NAL,OFB, HAL etc existed..

If we dont need National defense Industry and imports were enough we would never have these agencies nor we would have spend-ed a dime for it, National defense Industry is not for show or National Pride but to fill the Vulnerable part of our Defense preparedness..

War is not a commodity, It comes at cost of man and material to archive its goals at whatever cost, About China, If they are not looking for a War, Then they have no business inside our borders but that is not the truth..

Our Condition is not very good, to say the least and these are not my words, Imports is not the solution and never will be ..


=========================

Also if you have checked China Indigenous production scale and rate you would not come here and said just an ' overestimation ' ..

If you think some one has a nuke and tell you to stop, It does not happens that way, Unless you archive your goals, You cannot step back ..

Above that China have its own BMD layers over there cities even close to our borders, We dont have such quantity yet ..

Corruption ..

... but still why we are depending on others ????

if it was that easy then Chinese would not have let us occupy Arunachal to begin with...even they can retake it today but they know what actual war with India will cost them...its is not just sitting on the forum compare strengths by qty......when both will realize that its not a good option both will come to discussion table, and in this kind of limited wars I am saying that India has an upper hand as those crazy Rafales are quite capable of bombing the hell out of PLA....For those 600 LCAs I will go ahead any day with 270 MKIs and 200 Rafales to fight with enemy like China.... you don't have to jump every time shouting LCA LCA like a parrot....

 

[roma]

the crux of the matter is that - unfortunately it is characteristic of india - THERE IS NO SYSTEM , NO CLEAR DOCTRINE

EVEN IN THE AREA OF the MILITARY

military leaders are given vague policy "guidelines" ,, which are politically correct

but which they cant enforce on the ground !

we have such huge procurements - but lizards can infiltrate 60 km into arunachal

what is all that procurement doing for us - not earning us any respect where it counts, it would seem ?

 

[rvjpheonix]

A single MKI is more competitive than half a squadron of LCAs.
Even if we order 1000 LCAs, just 200 MKIs are much more dangerous.

Are you out of your mind!!! The supremacy of any aircraft in air is not so much. People overrate the mki and underrate the lca. You know the facts but somehow get yourself muddled up with the age old thinking of "if its foreign its got to be better".Even the mig 21 with a ratio of 5:1 we take out the mki. There needs to be a balnce between numbers and quality. Both are required in their respective roles.

 

[roma]

Straight talk with former Gen V K Singh - YouTube

my best ability to summarize what the gentleman general in the video has said :-

(1) serious corruption exists at high levels - which prefers to purchase foreign products
giving kickbacks as much as 70% ( my comment;- its a ridiculous situation ) - this stunts the
development of our own industry as the money is instead shunted into accounts abroad

(2) large-scale laziness refusing to learn keep abreast of new technology and
defence strategy resulting in planning according to yesterdays warfare technology
instead of tomorrow's
- this leaves us behind compared especially to china.

(3) street-market attitude towards military procurement - buying high tech weapons
as if they are vegetables being sold in the street market ..... asking experts who put forward
procurement proposals - asking silly questions - in essence , the uneducated get to ask
experts silly questions and the experts have to justify their proposals to people who are
wholly unqualified to even understand !!!
( it's like asking jagjeevan ram to evaluate steve jobs' computer software proposals;
( jagjeevan;. areee yaaarrrr ---- computerrr is komputerrrr ???)

my own conclusion : the nation is in big trouble - especially on item (3) - it's a lack of educated people
in the most important institution , the parliament and defence sub-committees ...and that un-educated
attitude transforms into corruption and , gives the green light for it to take place at higher levels in the military

to end on a positive note - we DO have at least one MAN wiling to speak it out .-.
hopefully others will follow

the people need to realize that folks like him MUST be in politics
we shall see if they vote hi in

it will be an indication of things to come

 

[ersakthivel]

Lol I never said that we have such cooperation with US, JAPAN or RUSSIA...I am only saying that just like we have to keep something in back up for Pakistan Chinese also cannot come to war with India without having anything in back up....if it was that easy then Chinese would not have let us occupy Arunachal to begin with...even they can retake it today but they know what actual war with India will cost them...its is not just sitting on the forum compare strengths by qty....

At the most it will be limited mountain war fare between 2 countries trying to retake each others territories....when both will realize that its not a good option both will come to discussion table, and in this kind of limited wars I am saying that India has an upper hand as those crazy Rafales are quite capable of bombing the hell out of PLA....

For those 600 LCAs I will go ahead any day with 270 MKIs and 200 Rafales to fight with enemy like China.... 20 odd Mk1s are yet to be officially inducted and you are dreaming about 600 LCA, Mk1 is yet to see fully operational status and you are dreaming about mk3 with stealth features....

its okay LCA being our own fighter nothing bad in having faith and loving it but just because someone does not mention LCA in his imagination of having 270 MKI's and 200 Rafales you don't have to jump every time shouting LCA LCA like a parrot....

So I don't know that it is a wise idea for GOI to follow your advice of expecting China to not to deploy thier full Airforce when we do the same,

For every RAFALE you buy you can have 4 to 5 Tejas mk-2 fighters with same specs if we consider the lifecycle cost in ever depreciating rupee. So it means 28 pylons with BVR ,WVR missiles for Tejas and 7 pylons for RAFALE if the IAF budget isthe same.MK_2 will have a higher topspeed than RAFALE as well.

And if it comes to close combat with WVR once the BVR vollies are over numbers are absolutely important when ITR and STR are comparable.SO air war is not a picnic of choosing fancy less in number foreign fighters over same capacity high in number Indian made fighter.

or those 600 LCAs I will go ahead any day with 270 MKIs and 200 Rafales to fight with enemy like China.... 20 odd Mk1s are yet to be officially inducted and you are dreaming about 600 LCA, Mk1 is yet to see fully operational status and you are dreaming about mk3 with stealth features..

You can go ,no sane IAF chief will go. Numbers are numbers , Su-30 MKI is not even classified as 4.5th gen fighter is something you forget . Their design is 1980s vintage and chinese know the fighter in and out.

For everySU-30 MKI we deploy Chinese will deploy two of the same SU clones they have.

So your 270MKIs alone is not the sword of the He man to save India from China.

Su -30 MKI canbe detected and tracked at more than thrice the distance needed to track the Tejas because of the massive RCS reflections,

So continuing to argue with guys parroting the view we can spend any number of billions but won't induct Tejas in high numbers when it can do the same job in defending the country's airspace is of no use.

 

[ersakthivel]

A single MKI is more competitive than half a squadron of LCAs.
Even if we order 1000 LCAs, just 200 MKIs are much more dangerous.

Anyway, the bigger issue is LCA is simply not ready. Unless it is ready we cannot talk of series production.

Until the day LCA achieves FOC and sees five years of service, even Bisons will have a field day in a turkey shoot against LCA.

Depending on the future threat perception, IAF can decide whether more LCAs are reasonable or not. As of today LCA orders "may" go up to 178.

Until such large orders come through, HAL cannot increase production beyond 8/year. If such orders come through, then LCA orders may cross 20/year.

So, as of today, orders stand at 40 Mk1s and 8 N-MK1s. Hence 8/year is more than enough for this decade considering Mk2 will be ready only after 2018 or 2020.

A single MKI is eminently trackable from thrice the distance required for tracking Tejas, And 170 odd SU-30MKIs alone are not going to save the world.

It is not for nothing all4.5th gen fighters are going for less than 1 meter clean config RCS,

Already production line capacity increase to 20 per year is on the cards.

And this MIg-21 bisons turkey shooting Tejas can happen only if Tejas is on the ground without a pilot,

In actual combat Bison pilot will never know the presence of LCA until the BVR fired from Tejas is before his nose.

It has 50 km range tracking radar compared to 150 km range tracking radar for Tejas and tejas can launch 120 KM BVRS .SO a Bison has no chance.

 

[pankaj nema]

We need NUMBERS as well as High Tech planes

That is why we are keeping antiques like Mig 21 and Mig 27

To make up the numbers

PAF and PLAAF also rely on numbers

Even the super rich PLAAF Does Not have an
ALL 4 Th GEN Fleet Right Now and PLAAF
will be able to field an ALL 4 Th Gen Airforce only by 2020

LCA in good numbers ( say 200 ) alone will help us in fighting a TWO front war or we are finished

 

[pankaj nema]

Pakis while discussing the capabilities of JF 17 in aerial combat with IAF are very FRANK

They know the Limitations of JF 17 vis a vis Su 30 ; Mig 29 and Mirage 2000

The Pakis say that A LARGE fleet of JF 17 will be best used for disrupting the IAF Missions
and forcing our planes to abort our missions and go back

That is a simple but noteworthy strategy

And LCA is definitely better than JF 17

So we will be better served by LCA

 

[Kunal Biswas]

What IAF needs and India is a Modern fighter relatively cheap and easy to produce with high sorties capability that too in reduced maintenance time and operational cost to do Combat Patrols, Close air support, Point defense, Providing Air superiority roles and this aircraft can be modified at any time according to our needs ..

Tejas is the answer, now as we speak the serial production of MK1 is already started, and most importantly Tejas MK1 should and must be upgraded in next 5 years to MK2 level in terms of avionics ..

 

[p2prada]

Are you out of your mind!!!

Yes, I am out of my mind, so is Dassault and so is Sukhoi.

The supremacy of any aircraft in air is not so much.

Incorrect. The supremacy of any aircraft in the air has profound differences in capabilities based on design.

People overrate the mki and underrate the lca.

Nobody's overrating or underrating anything. If you go back to Col Ternof's assessment of Red Flag, he pointed out that a trained MKI pilot should "always" be able to beat the F-15C. The LCA's survivability in the air against MKI is highly questionable in such a case, since the F-15C is always expected to win against a LCA class fighter. That was well demonstrated during the Arab Israeli wars with astounding results with a 100-1 kill ratio.

You know the facts but somehow get yourself muddled up with the age old thinking of "if its foreign its got to be better". Even the mig 21 with a ratio of 5:1 we take out the mki. There needs to be a balnce between numbers and quality. Both are required in their respective roles.

Negatory. You are getting into a debate between one MKI vs 5 Mig-21s as easy as its a computer video game. Merely imagine you are one of the 5 Mig-21 pilots and you lost 4 Mig-21s while trying to down one MKI. You just lost 4 of your closest friends. What would your mental status be after you land and how would it affect your future missions. Also don't forget that these chaps were the ones you trained with consistently. You can't simply meld with another group so quickly during wartime. In comparison, that one loss of a MKI did not have as much impact as the loss of 1/3rd of your Mig-21 squadron.

If you understand the logic of why conventional armies use 5.56mm bullets, you can bring in a similar analogy here.

Also note that all countries including India have squadron limitations. That's why countries with very tiny squadrons always go for medium or heavy aircraft like Malaysia, Algeria, while countries with larger squadron requirements go for smaller aircraft like Pakistan, South Korea. India is one of the three or four countries which have a large squadron requirement and can fill up that requirement with medium and heavy aircraft.

The need for a Mig-21 will exist as long as we have Jaguars in our inventory.

Anyway, to reiterate my very first point. Dassault stated that the capability difference between a Rafale and Mirage-2000 is 3 times. IAF stated officially that it takes an entire squadron of Mig-21s to do the work of a single MKI, and that is only in missions that the Mig-21 can perform. There are certain missions where the Mig-21 cannot even think about matching capability, like taking off from West Bengal and running recce missions in the Malacca Straits or taking off from Assam and going on a bombing run in Karachi.