Turkey Freezes F-35 Order Over Access to Source Codes

Discussion in 'Americas' started by nrj, Mar 26, 2011.

  1. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Turkey has announced that it is putting the planned purchase of 100 F-35 fighter jets from the US on hold because the Pentagon refuses to share the source code used in the software designed for the aircraft as well as the codes that might be used externally to activate the planes.

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    Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said on Tuesday, following a meeting of the Defense Industry Implementation Committee (SSİK), that the negotiations over the F-35 procurement tender had not yielded “satisfactory results.” He said, “We will evaluate the order in the next meeting, in light of the progress made in the talks by then.”

    He said much ground had been covered in the talks in terms of technology sharing, but this was not enough for Turkey to accept the jets. He said the costs of the project had also increased but that the Turkish side had failed to secure the source code and the remote flight codes for the planes for which it will be paying $16 billion.

    Without the source code, Turkish engineers wouldn't be able to make any changes to the software that operates the jets. The external flight codes are equally important, if not more, as they can be used externally to navigate the jets.

    Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Chief of General Staff Gen. Işık Koşaner and Minister Gönül attended Monday's SSİK meeting, which took place at the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) offices.


     
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  3. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Oops, bad news for the F-35 program. It may lead to cancelling of the order. Heck, anybody paying 16 billion USD has the right to ask for the source codes, since it is such a sensitive data.
     
  4. Nonynon

    Nonynon Regular Member

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    This is probably just USA turning down a Turkish weapons deal gently... Until the next Turkish elections next year you just can't tell were Turkey is going.
    If Erdogan is here to stay this deal is obviously not going to work.
     
  5. Oracle

    Oracle New Member

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    Good point. Also the current Turkish regime is not very US friendly. Taking into consideration all the happenings in the Middle-East, US would not sell them botties, who in future would down US' aircrafts.
     
  6. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    USA never gives these codes even to other NATO nations. USA defense industry uses their own software/language and does not share this anyone else.
     
  7. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Other nations have already started matching the sophisticated critical technology put in defense products like USA does.

    Its still hard to digest for DC butterballs but, US's monopoly is challenged every other day now.

    You can't practically loot other nation without offering substantial in return specially when there are potential players in market.

    16 Billion USD is large amount.

    --

    But again Nonynon has raised good point. There is obvious politics involved here.
     
  8. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    There is a combination of politics and desperation, there is a fear that funding will not come for this program and it may have to be killed.Many NATO nations are close to bankruptcy and USA is not doing so well economically to carry the whole burden. India has been offered the F-35 when it is not a NATO member. USA can maintain the status quo for about 10 years, by then there maybe many nations having comprable planes.
     
  9. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    http://thehill.com/news-by-subject/...5-will-need-qunprecedentedq-levels-of-funding

    Auditors: F-35 will need 'unprecedented' levels of funding to continue

    Government auditors on Tuesday warned the F-35 fighter program will require “unprecedented” amounts of funding and experience further delays as engineers grapple with software development.

    “Affordability for the U.S. and partners is challenged by a near doubling in average unit prices since program start and higher estimated life-cycle costs,” the Government Accountability Office (GAO) stated in a report delivered to the House Armed Services Committee. “Going forward, the [F-35 program] requires unprecedented funding levels in a period of more austere defense budgets.”

    The GAO’s report noted continuing design changes have driven up the price and stretched out the F-35 program’s schedule.

    “After more than nine years in development and four in production, the [F-35] program has not fully demonstrated that the aircraft design is stable, manufacturing processes are mature, and the system is reliable,” according to the GAO. “Engineering drawings are still being released to the manufacturing floor and design changes continue at higher rates than desired. More changes are expected as testing accelerates.”

    The auditors also honed in on ongoing software development problems, warning new delays are ahead.

    “While progress is being made, a substantial amount of software work remains before the program can demonstrate full warfighting capability,” according to GAO.

    The report notes the program recently released its second software batch “nearly two years later than the plan set in 2006, largely due to integration problems.”

    The next three batches of software, the GAO found, “are now projected to slip more than three years compared to the 2006 plan.”

    Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.), chairman of the House Armed Services tactical air and land forces subcommittee, noted the GAO has made a raft of recommendations about the program that have “largely been right on the mark."

    ”But those warnings have gone unheeded” by the Pentagon, Bartlett added.

    The GAO findings come several weeks after senior Pentagon and F-35 program officials had began sounding more confident about the future of the effort, which has routinely been delayed and breached cost projections.

    Air Force Maj. Gen. C.D. Moore, the Pentagon’s deputy F-35 program chief, said earlier this month at an industry conference that he sees “a positive future.” In recent years, software problems, design flaws and testing issues have held back F-35 development and delayed goals to insert it into the fleet, stated a late 2010 report from the Pentagon’s director of operational testing and evaluation.

    Defense Secretary Robert Gates in January placed the program in a two-year probationary period. If problems are not corrected by early January 2013, Gates has said, the next Defense secretary should terminate the variant.

    Gates in January added $4 billion to the entire F-35 program’s design-and-development phase. He also altered the tri-service program’s purchasing schedule by making the Marine Corps variant the last that DOD will buy.

    Those moves were the latest changes to a program that for decades will constitute the vast majority of the U.S. fighter jet fleet. The Air Force, Navy and Marines are slated to buy around 2,440 models; U.S. allies say they will buy around 750 more.

    Bartlett said he is concerned that Pentagon officials have not yet provided lawmakers revised program cost data after those significant changes.

    “This year we are told that an additional $4.6 billion and two years have been added to the development schedule, another 124 aircraft have been removed from the planned buy for the next five years,” the subcommittee chairman said, “but we have yet to be provided an estimate of the current total F-35 program procurement cost.” But with no other next-generation fighter in development, Washington has “no choice ... but to continue to pay for F-35 development and procurement cost increases,” Bartlett said.

    That assessment echoes Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos, who last week told House appropriators there is “no Plan B” for his service.
     
  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    F35 is gathering worst PR in market. Lets hope India never considers JSF program when source codes are not shared & funding costs are in figures of never seen before.

    Export variants of PAKFA/J20 will be in market about 7-8 years from now.
     
  11. sandeepdg

    sandeepdg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well, this should be a lesson for all those advocating that IN should seriously consider acquiring the JSF in the future. I am sure that the fly-away cost of each of these birds is gonna be more than a 100 million USD at least, maybe even more considering the ever increasing developmental costs of this plane. 16 billion dollars is a bloody huge amount after all, heck its more than the GDP of most African countries !!
     
  12. chex3009

    chex3009 Regular Member

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    Were they on drugs when they first ordered and partnered with the US that they expected the yanks to give their valued source codes to the Turks on the other side when they are not fully complying with the british on this matter yet.

    Just a wait and watch game by the US to see where Turkey is headed, i guess...!!!
     
  13. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    so they dont give source codes to any country and they dont allow other countries to use their software/source codes on the planes....wow thats a nice way- take the money and control the planes
     
  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    USA funds most of these big projects, they want to protect their interests. On a program like F-35 where USA could have spent anywhere from 100-300 billion to produce(real number will never be known). If the plane is given to NATO allies with full TOT what is the guarantee that it will not be re exported or given to someone else?? USA has already experienced this twice recently with the LAVI program in Israel(f-16) and the B-2 bomber reportedly given to the chinese by the serbs in Serbian war reversed engineered recently and shown off as their 5th gen plane by China.
     
  15. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    very true lethalforce bhai....but Turkey or British are only asking for planes to be controlled by them not ToT of the entire aircraft this are two different issue ToT is for production and source codes are to control the aircraft....

    lethalforce bhai can u give me more info about the serb giving tech to china plz....!!
     
  16. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    If these source codes are shared among all NATO nations, giving source codes to one nation is a threat if relations worsen, all NATO nations sharing the plane will be in jeopardy.
     
  17. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    sorry lethalforce bhai didnt get u.....how come all NATO F-35 will be in threat if say Turkey becomes enemy...??
     
  18. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    If relations worsen and Turkey gives source codes to Russia or China it will be very expensive to fix and jeopardize any operations using the plane. Think of source codes as an algebraic equation, you are giving the answer but not the equation used to get it.
     
  19. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    ok.....thanks lethalforce bhai....

    and US is not allowing these countries to use their own source codes....i dont get that either-yeah its kind of tampering with US tech but still you have to either way....
     
  20. Atul

    Atul Founding Member

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    It was foolish for the Turks to presume that the Americans will share the Codes with them, what ever cost they pay for it. (God knows what & how much they have invested in the F-35 till date)

    Let this be a eye opener for the IAF there must be a clear "NO" for the US jets in the MMRCA.
     

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