The Mirage-2000 vs MiG-29 debate finally ends!

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by fulcrum, May 12, 2012.

  1. fulcrum

    fulcrum Regular Member

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    The Mirage-2000 vs MiG-29 debate finally ends! That too straight from the horse's mouth. When IAF received these 2 fighters, they were pitted against each other. Find out who came out as the winner(s) under which circumstances. There is also a wealth of other info never heard of. And the way, it's written is hilarious and adds to the charm as well. Enjoy!

    Mirage-2000H vs MiG-29B
    Updated - 8th May 2012

    Finally a long running debate comes to a closure, a debate which seemed never ending like the size of the cosmos itself. Now that may seem like an exaggeration but that was how the Aviation community found itself whenever the subject of Mirage-2000 & MiG-29 arose. The last time when someone tried to close the debate on F-16 & MiG-29, that someone turned out to be Code One Magazine, which is owned by none other than Lockheed Martin, which manufactures the bloody fighter! So naturally, not the unbiased of sources, Yes? However this time around, the source is a neutral bi-monthly aviation and defence magazine, called Vayu Aerospace, which operates out of a country that not only does not manufacture either of the fighters, but doesn't have any adversaries operating these two platforms to make the reporting of the events biased. Also is the fact that the said country is friendly to both the host countries of the Mirage-2000 and the MiG-29, France and the Soviet Union respectively. In addition to that, the pilots who flew both the fighters were all from that same neutral country too. A perfect setting if you ask me. So... lets find out from the Indian Air Force, how these two outstanding fighters performed when pitted against each other. As an added bonus, a passing reference to the performance of MiG-23MF is also made, don't miss it.

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    Source:
    Vayu Aerospace and Defence Review

    Related Articles:
    Cost of Mirage-2000 and MiG-29
    Thrust to Weight Ratios of all Fighter Planes


    Link - Beauty vs the Beast
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
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  3. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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    can some one summarize the article for me buddies---thanks in advance :cool2:
     
  4. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    mate as far as i understood,mig-29B has better instantenous rate of turning,has better thrust to weight ratio,has more manueverability than the mirage-2000H of the IAF.moreover the former is far more rugged than mirage-2000 and is a better dogfighter in terms of wvr combat.other than this the mirage-2000 has digital fly by wire system,on the other hand the fly by wire of the mig-29 is mechanical.
     
  5. ashicjose

    ashicjose Regular Member

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    If MIG is better why we were not used it in KARGIL
     
  6. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    How can one compare the two aircrafts when the MiG 29 is an air superiority fighter and the Mirage is ground attack and also forms part of our nuclear delivery platform. I mean if a mirage is going to be be sent on a bombing mission, the MiG 29 will give it escort.
     
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  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    They were used. One of them locked on to a Paki F16 which ran away with its tail between it's legs and the Pakis never put up the F16s for the rest of the war.
     
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  8. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Mirage-2000 is an air superiority aircraft. The delta wing performs very well over the Himalayas and was the only aircraft properly rigged for bombing at the time.
     
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  9. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

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    I don't get much from that article. The rate of turning was good, better T/W ratio (since 29 is 2 engined ), bad finish.

    But they never speak about the operational capability, like the ability to spot each other, or who was spotted first.
     
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  10. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    In IAF its role is for ground attack especially nuclear strike.
     
  11. ashicjose

    ashicjose Regular Member

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    if that the case why we were find difficulties to put them into action in first phase of kargil war.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
  12. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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    problem with the mig 29 is its RD 33 engine which has to be constantly overhauled and therefore the aircraft is unavailable for operations part of the time .

    besides this there was the problem of spares which occurred when the soviet union split up and spares were unavailable for some time . the whole mig 29 fleet had to be grounded for a while for lack of spares .

    having operated both the mirage 2000 and mig 29 , the IAF is definitely more satisfied with the performance of the mirage 2000 which has very high readiness rates and never gave any trouble .

    thats why the IAF always wanted more mirages , not mig 29s and naturally favoured the rafale in MRCA .
     
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  13. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    The Soviets actually offered us to shift the MiG29 production line to India. For some reason we refused.
     
  14. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Strike is a secondary role for Mirage-2000 in all air forces. Primary role is air superiority as it always has been. Limited strike capability was added in 1999, for Kargil, for IAF. Before that it had limited air interdiction capability for 2 decades. Our Mirages won't be fully multirole until the upgrade is done.

    Mig-29, by looking at design specs, should have been superior to the F-16 in pretty much every parameter, let alone M-2000. But what killed it's reputation was the shoddy quality of the airframe and engine. The current RD-33 Series 3 engines are excellent.

    The only true multirole aircraft in our fleet is the MKI.
     
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  15. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    We don't know why the air force did not go for the follow on order for Mirage-2000. Instead they chose the Mig-29. I am not sure if they are interrelated though.

    IAF chose the MKI instead.
     
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  16. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    I think you are confusing that with the MiG-21. Russia offered India to buy the MiG-21 production facilities to solve its spare problems. India refused as MiG-21 spares are abundant throughout the world.
     
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  17. SPIEZ

    SPIEZ Senior Member Senior Member

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    The option of miG29 home production was offered, I remember reading the source here somewhere. Can you compare the radars on both?
     
  18. fulcrum

    fulcrum Regular Member

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    Russians offer everything to India. Name one which they don't offer, apart from nuke related stuff and missiles longer than 300km. Armand was referring to the question of complete shifting of production to India, or in other words it's just short of a complete transfer of copyright of MiG-21 to India. Basiclaly we would be eligible legally, to make and sell parts or even the whole MiG-21, to any country.

    I can tell you this, read a long time ago in BRF that the IAF MiG-29s scored a kill ratio of 7:1 against the Mirage, in DACT. How much of it is BVR and how much of it is WVR is unknown.
    Dunno about the radar of the Mirage, but I can give info about the MiG-29's radar - http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ew-striker-indian-air-force-3.html#post458011 (took a while to find it)

    I suggest you read the article fully. This isn't some hodge-podge poorly written piece from some dumbass desi journalist, but rather written by a veteran pilot of the IAF. The summary given before misses a lot of other info. If you still choose to ignore a pilot's experience, then suit yourself.

    Its so rare to see IAF open its mouth, infact I think this is the only detailed(by IAF standards) description of a non-hostile encounter the IAF has ever given out into the public domain for decades. How can anyone afford to miss that is beyond me.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2012
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  19. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Good information.

    If I may add, India already makes some parts of the MiG-21, which are of course not the best quality, and Indian MiG-21s with a lot of Indian made parts have crashed in large numbers. Whether this is causality, we do not know.
     
  20. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    The USSR never offered to shift production of the MiG-29 to India. The Soviets wouldn't shut down production of a successful fighter of the time. It is in a bit of trouble now, but they are still trying to save RAC MiG. The only reason Russia offered the MiG-21 facilities was because they had already withdrawn it and didn't have enough business to keep outdated facilities open.

    M2000 radar has far more acquisition and tracking ability than the late Zhuk models for the MiG-29.
     
  21. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    PM, most of the crashes of MIG 21 were either due to shoddy maintenance practices but mostly due to spurious spares procured from around the world. HAL Koraput had indeginised many components ( also developed European suppliers) and AFAIK they have never given them problem.
     
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