The 5.56mm and CQB: Is there something better?

Discussion in 'Land Forces' started by Kunal Biswas, Jul 6, 2013.

  1. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    The U.S. Army recently conducted one of the most extensive studies into small arms performance in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) and published their findings. This study was conducted to answer concerns that some warriors were expressing in After Action Reports (AAR) post battle about the effectiveness of the 5.56mm NATO cartridge.

    The test team not only tested M193, M995 (AP) and M855 "Green Tip", but they also tested a number of other loads to see if there were any improvements made to the combat effectiveness of the 5.56mm round by civilian companies.

    [​IMG]

    In the 5th paragraph of the report, Major David LaFontaine makes the following statement which pretty much sums up what I've been saying about caliber selection for many years.

    'In the end, “footpounds of energy” is misleading, “stopping power” is a myth, and the “oneshot drop” is a rare possibility dependent more on the statistics of hit placement than weapon and ammunition selection. Effectiveness ultimately equates to the potential of the weapons system to eliminate its target as a militarily relevant threat."

    In the end the U.S. Army found that no commercially available alternatives in 5.56mm ammunition performed measurably better than existing issued ammo (M855, M193, M995). This study was based on CQB effectiveness, and from the ranges of 0-50 meters all ammo tested performed similarly and none stood out as being clearly superior.

    Also worth mention is that during this testing the U.S. Army also tested the M80 7.62x51mm round fired from an M14 to compare it to the performance of the 5.56mm in CQB conditions. It performed in the same band of performance as the 5.56mm ammo tested. They concluded that in a CQB situation the 7.62x51mm round offered no measurable performance benefit over the 5.56mm round.

    One more important note, they also concluded that "shot placement trumps all other variables". This is something I've been saying for years (and in some of my videos found on my YouTube channel). Take the weapon you can best hit the target with, then worry about what caliber it is.

    Source : http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf

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    The test shows as per US Army the effect of 5.56mm ( 62gr ) is nearly same a 7.62x51mm / FAL round..

    Now that is interesting as we emphasis on 7.62x39mm for CT ops, And circulation of 5.56mm wounding myth..
     
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  3. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Exactly. On the range I could hit a 600 meter target consistently with the 7.62x51mm M-14 (iron sights). I feel that I could pick one up today and do that.

    [​IMG]

    I never felt comfortable firing the 5.56mm M-16. It was not ergonomically a fit for me, the sight radius was shorter, and I hated the sound of that $^(&^%#%^ing buffer spring!

    [​IMG]

    Grumble, grumble.
     
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  4. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    Read that when it comes to CQB, especially PDW, it is said that nothing beats the 5.7x28

    FN 5.7×28mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Thats why even our VVIP security guys use the FN P90 & FN FiveSeven

    [​IMG]

    [video=youtube_share;JxBFtilO_C4]http://youtu.be/JxBFtilO_C4[/video]

    [video=youtube_share;9wLdvTJeeu4]http://youtu.be/9wLdvTJeeu4[/video]
     
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  5. Somreet Bhattacharya

    Somreet Bhattacharya Regular Member

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    Kunal Sir, therefore what would be the advantage of a 7.62 round in a CQB? if I go by this study, the smaller 5.56 round would do the job, isn't it? I guess here is where the stopping power issue comes....you would not want a limping tango..isn't it?
     
  6. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    You hit the guy in right place he is going to drop..

     
  7. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas, I gave up on small arms a while back, but I will try my best.

    Actually, the old 5.56 rounds (back in early 'Nam) had notoriously high fragmentation, and on hit, they would fragment tremendously. There are stories that battle hardened veterans of US Army burst into tears with the pain when they were hit by the old 5.56 in friendly fire incidents when they did not feel anything even close if they received 7.62x39 injuries from the Type 56. The old 5.56 having "stopping power" is not a myth, the pain would be intense enough to make people stop in their tracks and fall.

    @arnabmit,

    5.7x28 mm is not the best in CQB, it is best used when you are firing at a target with body armour. It depends on hit placement, really, but 5.7x28 when used on someone without body armour will just go through, minimal possibility of mortal wounds since the FMJ bullet doesn't "mushroom" i.e. fragment at all. It just tears through and makes a small hole. If used against an armoured target, the armour is penetrated and the bullet then fragments inside the body, creating grievous injuries. 4.7x30 mm was made for the same purpose. To be used against armoured personnel.

    I am not an Army man in the least, but I would prefer a balanced overpressure 9 mm (like the Russian rounds) firing SMG to the P90. The main advantage of the P90 is that it is very compact, and has high capacity magazines (50 rounds) and tremendous rate of fire. And it is reliable and can tear through body armour.
     
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  8. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Read this >> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/52447-poodle-killer-myth.html

    ^^ From US army study


     
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  9. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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  10. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Give a good read of the article you are provided before asking question ..

     
  11. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas, I will absolutely not dismiss stopping power as a myth as you have unless the rounds are tested on people. And that requires war, or a maniac.

    And I did read the article fully.
     
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  12. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    If you are asking for spoon feeding, there you go..

    The article is about CQB that is why you missed most, Such ( CQB ) engagement occur under 50ms, You hit at right place by a 5.56mm or 7.62nato/soviet will result black out and death..

    An Example >>

    [​IMG]
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    Regarding Stories, That was too covered in the articles >>

    ^^ Read and Learn...

     
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  13. s002wjh

    s002wjh Senior Member Senior Member

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    well to bad military cant use ammo other than FMJ. there are tons hollow point, polymer point defense ammo in the market that do max expand/trauma damage.
     
  14. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas, was that really needed?

    I was always on the side of the 5.56, and I would rather get shot with a .30 than with a 5.56.

    What I am saying: Stopping power cannot be dismissed as a myth, unless they really test it on human targets
    What you are saying: All rounds are lethal if they hit the right place.

    You are replying to my posts, out of context.
    :cereal:
     
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  15. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Carry on..

     
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