T-14 Armata

[Kunal Biswas]

arjun - 1,600 l of fuel taken, but where are fuel tanks? There are two additional in hull rear, where are more? Most obvious place to mount them are over track sponsons.

Any thoughts?

opsec......

 

[militarysta]

opsec......

c'mon photo are in internet:

fuel tanks in engine compartment+




of course if is really opspec just delate this photos.

for comparison Leo2 and M1:

 

[Damian]

L-3 Communications Combat Propulsion Systems

AVCR-1790 Diesel engine, it is from the same series as used for example in M60 tanks series, but this time, 1500HP avaiable. Possible replacement for AGT-1500C Gas Turbine engine... and can be used also in older tanks, like M60 series.

 

[methos]

Hilmes gives the following values for fuel storage in T-72(A):

- 705 l located in the hull under armour
- 495 l located under the track covers (unarmoured)
- 390 l in barrels at the vehicle rear

He notes the life expectancy for the Diehl tracks as "larger than 6000 km" and exchanging time for engine as 0.5 h (30 minutes) and for the gun barrel as 0.25 h (15 minutes).

Coming back to my question:
I doubt that adopting the Arjun besides the T-90 was a pure logical decision. It would have been possible to strech a T-90 chassis and put a larger engine into it, which would lead to a lower ground-pressure and a higher degree of motorization - similar to that of the Arjun. I think that the Russians would have cooperated if they would have been asked to do so. Western countries have modified or even designed AFVs and tanks for orders below 200 units. Western tanks operate nearly unmodified in all climates (e.g. the Leopard 2 and the M1 Abrams), the same can be said about the T-72.
I think that the planers and designers of the Arjun made a number of mistakes and the Indian government did not want to loose the whole money spent for development and also some prestige.

 

[Damian]

Western tanks operate nearly unmodified in all climates (e.g. the Leopard 2 and the M1 Abrams),

About modification. I read about only one modification made for Kuwaiti M1A2's, these are... additional mud guards mounted to hull rear.

Muslim nations M1's actually do not have any modifications for hot climate. M1A1's crews do not have dedicated A/C units but NBC system besides protecting againc NBC threats, doubles as A/C unit that can blow cold air in to crew compartment. M1A2's have the same, only US M1A2SEP v1/v2 have additional A/C unit TMS-VCSU besides capabilities offered by NCB system.

What actually wonders me is why besides US, nobody else treat soldiers equipment as something that can be fully integrated with a tank. Look at MSS - Mounted Soldier System recently fielded by US Army.


Soldiers wears not only nomex uniforms protecting them from eventuall fire burns, but also nomex face protection that doubles as dust cover. CVC helmet that was prooven to protect even against 7,62mm ammunition (most probably AK ammo it is), and ballistic vest protecting torso against not only bullets but also eventuall spall inside vehicle. There is additional cooling in uniform that can be connected to veicle A/C system. And several other goodies. It is the first so complex approach to improve crew comfort, safety and survivability outside vehicle design.

 

[Damian]

Found in DEFEXPO 2012 thread... this is Arjun turret ammuniton storage behind loader station and... my god, they claim that this is safe? It is not even isolated from crew compartment by blast doors or something like that. Similiar ammunition racks can be found on NATO 1st and 2nd generation tanks like M48, M60, Centurion or Leopard 1... I suppose that even good old M4A3(76)W with wet ammo storage would be less vurnable to ammo cook off than this design solution. Even T-90S will be safer with ammunition only in autoloader that is placed much lower and from top covered by steel plate.

Defence Expo 2012. Arjun and T-90, pictures from insides.

One of pictures it is barely visible hull magazine, same situation as in case of turret, not isolated ammo racks (similiar to Leopard 2). Arjun definetly is not safer than T-90S in case of ammo cook off.



Here a photo of M1A1/M1A2 turret ammo magazines with blast doors closed. As we can see ammunition is completely isolated, and crew will be safe in case of ammo cook off.


Here a video that shows how effective this is, and how dangerous ammo cook off is. Seriously, I would be scared if I would need to fight inside Arjun as same as I would be scared in T-90S, Leopard 2, Leclerc or Challenger 2 or Merkava...

 

[p2prada]

Well, IA termed the Arjun as a vintage design. There is no surprise it belongs to vintage tanks in terms of crew protection.

 

[Damian]

But did they done any tests? Tests with crew mockups and tank with full ammo and fuel loadout should be hit in ammunition compartments to see how fast ammo will start to cook off and how bad it will be both for crew and tank.

With such design even that blow off panel on turret top will not help.

Or it was mainly within the rule "who cares, just start production"?

 

[p2prada]

Or it was mainly within the rule "who cares, just start production"?

Perhaps this.

First tank, heavy tank blah blah. DRDO, pride, prestige, profit. Thankfully, IA isn't dumb enough to buy all that pseudo-nonsense BS.

 

[Damian]

But what with Army tests (state tests?)? IMHO besides manufacturer/designers tests, there also should be performed very difficult Army/State tests.

Unless it was mainly political decision. And what about T-90MS? India officials had opportunity to see vehicle, talk with it's design team leader... UVZ officials also probably talked about heavy tracked platform "Armata" that also possibly will be offered for export.

 

[p2prada]

But what with Army tests (state tests?)? IMHO besides manufacturer/designers tests, there also should be performed very difficult Army/State tests.

Will never be revealed. IA's opsec laws are draconian. Maybe will be revealed after a decade or two after the tank is phased out.:thumb:

Unless it was mainly political decision. And what about T-90MS? India officials had opportunity to see vehicle, talk with it's design team leader... UVZ officials also probably talked about heavy tracked platform "Armata" that also possibly will be offered for export.

Russian defence industry exists for India, not Russia. They will sell anything to us, their best stuff included.

 

[pankaj nema]

Will never be revealed. IA's opsec laws are draconian. Maybe will be revealed after a decade or two after the tank is phased out.:thumb:



Russian defence industry exists for India, not Russia. They will sell anything to us, their best stuff included.

No sir that is not the case

In fact some time back in Pak fa thread YOU had said that the Best Russian EW systems are NOT
sold to us so we went for Israeli and French sub systems in the Su 30 mki

Secondly why are we struggling with developing Agni missiles and Arihant subs

Let us just throw money and get the TOPOL and the Akulas

 

[Damian]

Will never be revealed. IA's opsec laws are draconian. Maybe will be revealed after a decade or two after the tank is phased out.

Yeah, You are right. BTW any news in India about work on Arjun assault bridge version? There were informations that brigde will be designed in Poland, and Arjun hull specification might be send to Poland, or maybe our specialists will visit India to gather needed informations. How this looks like on the India side?

Russian defence industry exists for India, not Russia. They will sell anything to us, their best stuff included.

No sir that is not the case

In fact some time back in Pak fa thread YOU had said that the Best Russian EW systems are NOT
sold to us so we went for Israeli and French sub systems

Secondly why are we struggling with developing Agni missiles and Arihant subs

Let us just throw money and get the TOPOL and the Akulas

1) Did India asked for everything that Russia can offer? If not then what would be the point for Russians to lost time for promotion if India would rather pursue own development?

2) V. Murakhovski said that Object 195 might be further developed with one country interested in it... India perhaps?

 

[pankaj nema]

Russia's latest modified T 90 tank ie T 90 AM is for export customers ie mainly India

 

[p2prada]

No sir that is not the case

In fact some time back in Pak fa thread YOU had said that the Best Russian EW systems are NOT
sold to us so we went for Israeli and French sub systems in the Su 30 mki

Hmm. No. When MKI was configured the Russians did not have much. I was talking about MKM, which came well after MKI hit production.

Secondly why are we struggling with developing Agni missiles and Arihant subs

Let us just throw money and get the TOPOL and the Akulas

Akulas, we do have em. International treaties restrict Topol export. We would have purchased 1500Km cruise missiles for our Talwar class ships and Kilo class subs if it wasn't for MTCR. Brahmos would have had 800Km range too.

 

[p2prada]

Yeah, You are right. BTW any news in India about work on Arjun assault bridge version? There were informations that brigde will be designed in Poland, and Arjun hull specification might be send to Poland, or maybe our specialists will visit India to gather needed informations. How this looks like on the India side?

It is an indigenous version. Dunno if there is a plan for another BLT with Poland.

Arjun BLT Armored Bridgelayer | Military-Today.com

 

[pankaj nema]

Hmm. No. When MKI was configured the Russians did not have much. I was talking about MKM, which came well after MKI hit production.



Akulas, we do have em. International treaties restrict Topol export. We would have purchased 1500Km cruise missiles for our Talwar class ships and Kilo class subs if it wasn't for MTCR. Brahmos would have had 800Km range too.

If Russians are willing to sell us their best then we can hope to see that stuff in the Super 30 mki upgrades

And I feel Russians are being too rigid if they do nt give us the latest MIRV technology
because of MTCR

Also on Prasoon Sengupta's blog he has said that Brahmos block 3 will have a bigger range than 290 km

Russia does nt want India to become stronger than china

Hence this hesitation of NOT sharing their latest strategic technology

But we perseverant people if nothing else we will keep asking for the goodies

And given the fact that the growing Chinese power is a source of concern for even Russia
we can see some relaxations for us in future

 

[p2prada]

Russia's latest modified T 90 tank ie T 90 AM is for export customers ie mainly India

Damian was talking about a tank which is a 4th generation tank, or the F-22 of the tank world. It is called the Object 195. Seems it is open for export to, most likely, India.

There is no tank which can kill it and all current tanks are like pudding in front of it's 152mm gun.

 

[p2prada]

One more pic.

 

[p2prada]

If Russians are willing to sell us their best then we can hope to see that stuff in the Super 30 mki upgrades

Yeah. we will see stuff they cannot even hope to induct with their budget.

And I feel Russians are being too rigid if they do nt give us the latest MIRV technology
because of MTCR

If Russia violates MTCR, then US will follow suit, followed by China. We don't need MIRV technology anyway. Let's not forget we hold the world record for max number of satellite launches in a single launch.

Also on Prasoon Sengupta's blog he has said that Brahmos block 3 will have a bigger range than 290 km

He is an idiot. Don't believe him.

Russia does nt want India to become stronger than china

Hence this hesitation of NOT sharing their latest strategic technology

Russia cannot do anything about it. They have no intention of holding back India anyway.

We don't have a requirement for their strategic technology.

But we perseverant people if nothing else we will keep asking for the goodies

Only stuff we cannot make currently.

And given the fact that the growing Chinese power is a source of concern for even Russia
we can see some relaxations for us in future

This contradicts with your earlier point of Russia not willing to make India stronger than China.