Swaminathan : India's poverty reduction better than China's

mikhail

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Income inequality? India calculates its Gini based on consumption distribution while rest of the world (includes China) is using income distribution.
many leading economists have raised their doubts that china has been using wrong means to calculate its GDP for the last 10 years.according to them,the original GDP(nominal) of china is somewhere between $4.5-5.5 trillions and not what the chinis claim($8trillions)!
 

t_co

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many leading economists have raised their doubts that china has been using wrong means to calculate its GDP for the last 10 years.according to them,the original GDP(nominal) of china is somewhere between $4.5-5.5 trillions and not what the chinis claim($8trillions)!
Which leading economists?
 

Compersion

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many leading economists have raised their doubts that china has been using wrong means to calculate its GDP for the last 10 years.according to them,the original GDP(nominal) of china is somewhere between $4.5-5.5 trillions and not what the chinis claim($8trillions)!
That's fascinating point and reminds me of a article I read earlier:

http://thediplomat.com/china-power/the-curious-case-of-chinas-gd-figures/

Perhaps in that light someone can help on this - does PRC have a taxation system for citizens, individuals and companies. How and how much are they taxed. Also does the PRC country have a budget and audit of its books. Are there any for state governments. When is that done and what's the status for this financial year. It can help with the above discussions. Many thanks.
 

no smoking

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many leading economists have raised their doubts that china has been using wrong means to calculate its GDP for the last 10 years.according to them,the original GDP(nominal) of china is somewhere between $4.5-5.5 trillions and not what the chinis claim($8trillions)!
Yes, there are lot of DOUBTS about it.
But India's different calculation basis of GINI is something for sure!
 

no smoking

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These stats are compiled by independent bodies not GOI or CCP. But please, continue to live in lalaland.
But still, your Gini refers to consumption instead of income!

How unequal a country is India? - Rediff.com Business

Quote:

"But there are reasons to believe that the NSS data under-represent the rich, and in any case while for other developing countries the Gini coefficient often refers to income distribution, India's refers to distribution of consumption expenditure (as NSS does not collect income data), which is usually less than that of income (partly because the rich tend to save more than the poor)."
 

no smoking

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You really feel that in china, all are affluent and happy?

Is this China?



No poverty?

No want?


Poverty Headcount Ratio (2008)[1]
Poverty Trend World Bank
Live less than $1.25 a day 13.1% (172 million)
Live less than $2 a day 29.8% (394 million)
Live less than $2.5 a day 39.9% (528 million)
Live less than $4 a day 62% (821 million)
Live less than $5 a day 71.6% (948 million)

income disparities have increased. The growing income inequality is illustrated most clearly by the differences in living standards between the urban, coastal areas and the rural, inland regions. There have also been increases in the inequality of health and education outcomes. Exact statistics are disputed, as there have been reports of China's underestimating the poverty rate.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S1043-951X(01)00066-9

At the same time, I will say that it is ridiculous to compare India with China because the situation, environment, forms of government etc, etc are so diverse that it cannot be compared.
Thanks, Ray, once again off the topic.
Is there any Chinese here argueing that China is not a poor country?

Please provide something that can prove India poors are having a better life than Chinese poors, such as this:

How unequal a country is India? - Rediff.com Business
 

Ray

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Thanks, Ray, once again off the topic.
Is there any Chinese here argueing that China is not a poor country?

Please provide something that can prove India poors are having a better life than Chinese poors, such as this:

How unequal a country is India? - Rediff.com Business
Nothing off topic.

Just a fallout of your big talk on the fiscal marvel that China has achieved.

Poverty is a part of the fiscal matrix!

Clever clever Chinese.

You are bowling a Chinaman?

China or Chinese never speak anything directly.

All things are said indirectly so that all escape routes are open.

Where has any China person spoken of that China has poverty?

It is us who have had to indicate the same.

All the China people have said, shown and showcased, is - China ÃœBER ALLES! Everything sparkling and spanking new and better than anything there is in the whole world!
 

nimo_cn

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Nothing off topic.

Just a fallout of your big talk on the fiscal marvel that China has achieved.

Poverty is a part of the fiscal matrix!

Clever clever Chinese.

You are bowling a Chinaman?

China or Chinese never speak anything directly.

All things are said indirectly so that all escape routes are open.

Where has any China person spoken of that China has poverty?

It is us who have had to indicate the same.

All the China people have said, shown and showcased, is - China ÃœBER ALLES! Everything sparkling and spanking new and better than anything there is in the whole world!
Being better than India is no big talk, only fact.

We never claimed that China has no poverty, but has less poverty than India.

any problem with that?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
 

Ray

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Being better than India is no big talk, only fact.

We never claimed that China has no poverty, but has less poverty than India.

any problem with that?

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
Facts can be fudged and China is a Master fudger.

You all don't claim anything since that would seal your escape routes that you create with double talk.

You only leave facts' haning that are very suggestive of your real intent.

Heard of Peaceful Rise? Very peaceful indeed, right?
 

nimo_cn

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Facts can be fudged and China is a Master fudger.

You all don't claim anything since that would seal your escape routes that you create with double talk.

You only leave facts' haning that are very suggestive of your real intent.

Heard of Peaceful Rise? Very peaceful indeed, right?
One does not have to fudge anything to know that China has less poverty than India because it's so obvious. As one famous Indian politician recently pointed out, poverty is a state of Indian mind.

We certainly claimed something, like China has less poverty than India. But that is a fact none of you can refute, you have to invent something like "China has no poverty" and make it a target so that you can continue your nonsense.

Indians like you are reluctant to accept some unpleasant but basic facts about your country, that is sad.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
 

Ray

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One does not have to fudge anything to know that China has less poverty than India because it's so obvious. As one famous Indian politician recently pointed out, poverty is a state of Indian mind.

We certainly claimed something, like China has less poverty than India. But that is a fact none of you can refute, you have to invent something like "China has no poverty" and make it a target so that you can continue your nonsense.

Indians like you are reluctant to accept some unpleasant but basic facts about your country, that is sad.

Sent from my HUAWEI T8951 using Tapatalk 2
Indeed we al talk nonsense and the Chinese are the sages!

Rahul Gandhi is no famous politician. He is the Indian version of what you called Princeling. Famous because of political lineage and that does not automatically endows one with all things bright and beautiful!

No one issue can encapsulate what is poverty.

GDP is an average, but not a true index of the state of people.

In China Shanghai generates wealth to boost GDP, but is it equally the same case for people in, say, Guizhou, Yunnan, Gansu, Tibet, and Guangxi.?

So, while statistics indicates China is rich, yet reality indicates otherwise which is conveniently cloaked and push out of the scene.

Hence poverty is a reality and statistics is make belief!



Maybe this will show you that statistics is one thing to indicate growth and boom, while it conveniently misses out the reality of existence and poverty and deprivation and thus, a fudge of wellness and wealth!

China's ever-widening wealth gap

In China's poorest province paddy fields stretch down the mountainsides. Here and there farmers squat, working in the mud.

Men thread their way through the patchwork of fields, balancing heavy sheaves of rice just harvested from poles slung across their shoulders.

Over generations Guizhou's hillsides have been shaped and sculpted by hand. It's work that continues today. There's no sign of any mechanisation in these remote hills.

Tiny villages with creaky, old wooden houses dot the valleys. It's picturesque but it's also a place of poverty.

Lu Jikuan's bare feet squelch through the mud. High on a hillside the 70-year-old is bent double, cutting grass along the edge of his rice paddy with a scythe.

"I've seen rich people, on TV, living in nice houses, driving fancy cars," he says, a grin exposing his missing teeth. "I dream about having that kind of life. But I know it's just a dream."

Instead he makes do with a government pension of 55 yuan ($8, £5) a month and what little more he can earn from selling the occasional calf or pig.

The economic boom in China's cities and along its coast is happening far from here.

In China's richest places, like Tianjin, Shanghai and Beijing, average incomes at over $10,000 a year are now on a par with some European countries.

Here in Guizhou average incomes are a bit more than $2,000, more akin to Sudan or Nigeria. In the province's remote districts even that level of income is way beyond many.

'Not fair'
The little hamlet of Xiage echoes to the sound of firecrackers. Guests file up the wooden steps that lead to Lu Dayi's house. He has recently got married and all his relatives are here to celebrate the arrival of his first child.

The men make toasts with bowls full of wine, then use their fingers to scoop lumps of sticky rice into their mouths.

They are all farmers, thin and wiry, dressed in ill-fitting blue jackets and caps that are grimy and stained from their work in the fields. Cigarette smoke fills the air. Bushels of harvested rice are piled all around.

Gifts arrive, including a refrigerator and a new bed.

Lu Dayi could never afford these himself. He says he has earned nothing from his land this year and cannot grow enough to feed his family.

"I've seen, in the city, people living in big houses, in such nice skyscrapers," he says, "but if you look around here, the houses are just wood and bricks."

"It's not fair. I've been to the cities and seen bosses eating in fancy restaurants every day. They're rich. My life doesn't compare."

"If I had a lot of money I wouldn't mind spending it on an expensive meal too. But I don't. My heart aches when I spend money because I have so little of it."

Lu Dayi is one of over 150 million Chinese in the countryside still living below the poverty line - officially set at around $1.5 a day.

China's economic growth has been deeply uneven. Most have seen their lives improve in the past two decades, and 400 million Chinese have lifted themselves out of poverty.

But those in the right places with the right connections, usually in the cities, have gained incredible riches. So China today is among the most unequal countries in the world.

The serious and growing inequalities are a problem China's next leaders know they must tackle as the gap between the rich and the rest grows wider.

'Elite' lifestyle
Beijing is three hours by plane from Guizhou. It feels like a different country.

China's capital is now a megacity of almost 20 million, its streets hectic and clogged. The world's most expensive brands have huge outlets targeting China's new urban elites.

At a recent polo tournament, sponsored by Cartier, they arrived in their Rolls Royce limousines and Porsche SUVs.

One and a half million Chinese are now dollar millionaires. And the country has an estimated 250 billionaires, up from just 15 in 2006.

This part of China's society has joined the global rich league. They dress in designer outfits that cost more money than Lu Dayi in his village has had in his lifetime.

"People want better things in their life now," says Guo Pei, a fashion designer who came to watch the polo.

"In the West polo is part of the lifestyle of the elite. We too are rich now so we want what's fashionable and sophisticated. It's natural."

So those with money aspire to Western-style leisure and luxury. On the edge of Beijing stands a replica French chateau, complete with turrets and towers, and even its own vineyard and cellars.

It was built at a cost of $300m. Families can have a go at treading the grapes, then they sample the wines.

The most expensive vintage, grown at the chateau, sells for $1,500 a bottle.

The place also attracts China's new middle classes too. In front of the chateau Jia Zhiyao and Cao Pengfang pose while a professional photographer snaps pictures for their wedding album. She's in her wedding dress. He's in the outfit of a European dandy.

The couple, who both work for a Beijing real estate agency, are paying $1,500 for the album.

The cost is almost their combined monthly income. But they hope the pictures will impress their relatives who live in the provinces and have never left China.

And although their income makes them middle class, in China today they don't feel particularly well off.

Life in the cities is becoming increasingly expensive and, as inequalities rise, even the middle classes are being squeezed.

"Well, our lives are better than the poorest. But we're far worse off than the rich. It's not great, we're stuck in the middle," says Cao Pengfang.

The biggest problem they face is buying a flat to live in. Property prices have risen so fast that Cao Pengfang and Jia Zhiyao cannot afford anywhere in Beijing.

They say they will probably move back to their hometown.

'Urgent task'
Back in Guizhou 70-year-old Lu Jikuan is making rice wine at home.

The poorest feel stuck too, in the countryside.

Money is being poured into Guizhou. New roads carve through the hillsides, mile after mile of tunnels have been bored through the mountains. A new airport terminal is being built in Guiyang, the capital.

The province is pushing itself as a tourist destination and its economy is now among the fastest growing in China.

But the problem for China's leaders is that while the country's economic success has been extraordinary, the divisions are becoming starker.

Premier Wen Jiabao, who's soon to retire, has said narrowing the income gap is an "urgent task".

His decade in power, which is now drawing to a close, was meant to create a more "harmonious" society. Instead inequalities have risen.

So the job of making China a fairer place will now fall to the Communist Party's next generation of leaders, who will rule the country for the next 10 years.

The fear is that China's growing inequities could undermine the legitimacy of their one-party rule, and the more unequal China becomes, the more unstable it may be.

BBC News - China's ever-widening wealth gap
 

Ray

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What is poverty?

Per capita income?

Does it actually tell you the real state of all individuals?

It make statistically indicate the state of relative or absolute material deprivation that affects hundreds of millions of Chinese citizens, but is it applicable to every man Wong or Wang or Xi or Hu?

The growing income inequality is illustrated most clearly by the differences in living standards between the urban, coastal areas and the rural, inland regions. There have also been increases in the inequality of health and education outcomes. Exact statistics are disputed, as there have been reports of China's underestimating the poverty rate.
(http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S1043-951X(01)00066-9)

The inequality has been accelerated by the dismantling of the health system and the 'iron rice bowl' policy that guaranteed employment and benefits.

Because of the new economic concept, because China has a decentralised fiscal system that relies on local government to fund health and education, poor villages cannot afford good services and poor households cannot afford the high costs of basic services.

One could go on!


The issue is what is Poverty?

Statistics?

Or ground reality?

Food?

Or along with it, the Basic Amenities that is accessible without a drain on the person?

A glass having half a tumbler of water is Half Full or Half Empty or is it Full; half with water and half with Air?

Deft and clever trotting out of Statistics can indicate whatever is the agenda to prove - half empty, half full or totally full with water and air!

Is Education the knowledge of alphabets so that one can read or is it application of that aspect for one's progress?

It is you the Chinese, who are enamoured, fascinated, mesmerised by statistics that you are experts in the children's' game of Blindman's Bluff!

In India, we have slammed the Planning Commission for trying to trot out statistics on Poverty, thinking that we are Chinese and so we can be fooled with statistical bakwaas!
 
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t_co

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Indeed we al talk nonsense and the Chinese are the sages!

Rahul Gandhi is no famous politician. He is the Indian version of what you called Princeling. Famous because of political lineage and that does not automatically endows one with all things bright and beautiful!

No one issue can encapsulate what is poverty.

GDP is an average, but not a true index of the state of people.

In China Shanghai generates wealth to boost GDP, but is it equally the same case for people in, say, Guizhou, Yunnan, Gansu, Tibet, and Guangxi.?

So, while statistics indicates China is rich, yet reality indicates otherwise which is conveniently cloaked and push out of the scene.

Hence poverty is a reality and statistics is make belief!



Maybe this will show you that statistics is one thing to indicate growth and boom, while it conveniently misses out the reality of existence and poverty and deprivation and thus, a fudge of wellness and wealth!
Ray, that map you quoted to show China is 'impoverished' from 1999 :lol:
 

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