Sukhoi PAK FA

[gadeshi]

PAK FA or T-50 is a Russian fifth generation fighter jet. Where as Sulhoi/HAL FGFA is a variant of it which is being developed jointly by India and Russia. The completed FGFA will include a total of 43 improvements over the T-50, including stealth,super cruise, advanced sensors, networking and combat avionics. It was being widely believed that FGFA is that much talked joint Indo-Russian fifth generation jet.
However, questions arrive when Rostec CEO Sergey Chemezov indicated that the joint project may be different than the FGFA. Where, what he say...
“This is a 5th generation aircraft that will be created in cooperation with the Indian company. It will be slightly similar to the FGFA, but will still be an independent, new and advanced aircraft. We have almost finished all negotiations and are ready to sign; only formalities remain. I hope this contract will be signed before the end of the year"
He also said that FGFA is an export variant of PAK FA and may join IAF in 2017.
https://www.facebook.com/TeamINDRA/photos?ref=page_internal

It's a wet dreams
The only "improvement" can be done is 2-seat cockpit.
Stealth? What can be done to improve it over the current state?
Supercruise? It is 2100km/h even now with Item 117 engines (with normal payload of 4550kg and half of fuel inside). What improvement do you suggest? The first Space speed?
Advanced sensors? Can you imagine more sophisticated suite than N036 and 101-KS?
Networking? Navigation? Don't make me laugh...
So Indians will get extended TOT and an ability to install indigenous avionics and weapons if they want.
And something tells me that Israeli gear will not be used while they don't have gear of the same sophistication level.

 

[republic_roi97]

It's a wet dreams
The only "improvement" can be done is 2-seat cockpit.
Stealth? What can be done to improve it over the current state?
Supercruise? It is 2100km/h even now with Item 117 engines (with normal payload of 4550kg and half of fuel inside). What improvement do you suggest? The first Space speed?
Advanced sensors? Can you imagine more sophisticated suite than N036 and 101-KS?
Networking? Navigation? Don't make me laugh...
So Indians will get extended TOT and an ability to install indigenous avionics and weapons if they want.
And something tells me that Israeli gear will not be used while they don't have gear of the same sophistication level.

Well you don't have to sound rude. We'll see about how FGFA will be more sophisticated than PAK-FA, only future can reveal that. Cheers.

 

[AbRaj]

Well we use P800 onikss as base but a new missile guidance technology and steep dive capability .Also there is Brahmos II.Also there is new resistance to counter measures.These are made for Brahmos .
I found no info to say Akash is based on a forign design

Akash is clearly have similarities with Kalibr @gadeshi please provide some info

 

[AbRaj]

Well you don't have to sound rude. We'll see about how FGFA will be more sophisticated than PAK-FA, only future can reveal that. Cheers.

He is telling the truth which may seem rude but it is what it is. Accept it. It's our hyperactive media. We can only customize to our needs by installing some IAF specific gadgets and some minor modifications like dual seat and may be few other things. Don't expect too much. It's one of few Fifth Gen aircraft of current times and I think Russian have done very good job this time both in Hardware and software development. There is not much items available in open market for such a sophisticated machine. Ofcourse all depends on final decision

 

[gadeshi]

Akash is clearly have similarities with Kalibr @gadeshi please provide some info

Wow... Dude...
Calibr is GTG missile system, how can it have even some similarities with MR SAM?
I'd rather predict Russian aid to update Akash like Russians have updated Buk-M1 to Buk-M1-2 and M2.

 

[gadeshi]

He is telling the truth which may seem rude but it is what it is. Accept it. It's our hyperactive media. We can only customize to our needs by installing some IAF specific gadgets and some minor modifications like dual seat and may be few other things. Don't expect too much. It's one of few Fifth Gen aircraft of current times and I think Russian have done very good job this time both in Hardware and software development. There is not much items available in open market for such a sophisticated machine. Ofcourse all depends on final decision

Yes, but the one thing.
Twin-seater canopy is not a minor but a HUGE major adjustment

 

[AbRaj]

Yes, but the one thing.
Twin-seater canopy is not a minor but a HUGE major adjustment

Yup most probably only major change and that also due to huge demand for twin seat jets in the market. Twin seater Flankers are hugely popular. So Russia has to build one with two seats.

 

[Scarface]

in which area India can work ?? we dont have enough experts and Fully developed technology to implement in FGFA .

Designs , Radars , air-frames ,engines , IRST , electronic warfare systems etc will be Russian .<<<<< these are the 85% part of Fighter plane .

so what are the options ?? wait for another 20 years to develop indian technologies ?

and let me tell you developing these technology will require much more money (with no surety of development )

Russia & USA have invested trillions of $ to invent these technologies during the last 100 years ..............to challenge them we also need trillions of $ and a lot of time ..................then we will have to select some smart people & give them all that money and other resources so that they can invent something ................

..................................................................................................................



blah blah blah .............

https://sputniknews.com/military/201608011043816969-south-korea-fighter-jet-usa/

what are these 21 technologies ??

they will provide AESA radar technology ?? no .............
they will provide engine technology ?? no ,
electronic optical targeting pod ? no ......
radio frequency jammer ?? no ..........
the infrared search and tracking system ?? no ...............
they will provide syntactic mat technology ?? no

without these technologies can south korea can never build a Fifth generation fighter plane ?? Never .

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2016/07/116_210456.html

^ look at this a latest article , they are still begging ..............and they will not get it .

USA "assured" to provide 21 technologies , just because South korea bought 40 F-35 , they are so called "allies " of USA & these technologies are not that critical and south Korea can not make 5th generation fighter plane with these technologies .

they signed deal to provide even those 21 technology ?? no .................they just assured .


This is USA >>> www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1230724/UK-anger-America-refuses-share-secrets-new-radar-evading-Lockheed-F35-fighter-jet--Britain-helped-pay-for.html

^ they refuse to provide source codes of their AESA Radar to their biggest ally & Father United Kingdom , which is the sole "Level 1" partner of F-35 program , why they will provide source codes to any other country ?? specially a country like India which is so close to Russia ??










that is limited maintenance & they have this privilege because of China and I think the
maintenance will be provided by American technicians only .
even UK dont have that privilege >>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...repair-kit-on-f-35-jets---even-though-it-was/


Only Israel Can Customize America’s F-35 (At Least for Now)

https://www.wired.com/2016/05/israel-can-customize-americas-f-35-least-now/

Nobody will provide those technologies to anyone,
Those are the most sensitive technologies for building aircraft,neither has Russia nor has France.

F-35s AESA isn't exactly a Gripen AESA for which you are expecting technology transfer.

Now , getting to the other remaining technologies,how exactly do you know these aren't critical ? Just because they aren't bleeding edge doesn't mean they aren't important.

UK is not entitled to any sensitive technologies,at the end of the day their contribution to a 1.5 trillion dollar program is 2 billion dollars.

It is your fault for expecting anyone to give up technology like powerful AESA radars and jet engines.

The article you linked me to regarding the UK proves nothing,of course you are going to have to acquire the spare EW hardware from the OEM,that's called acquisition of spares,maintenance deals with fitting that hardware on to the aircraft.

And please do refer to the sources I provided you in my post and don't judge so fast , the article clearly says Japan will offer heavy airframe maintenance,repairs,overhauls and upgrades and that a similiar setup is being prepared for Europe.

The statement that F-35s cannot be maintained and serviced outside of USA is baseless and false,don't try to mix it up with acquiring spares.

 

[Zebra]

Yes.
However, if you need to learn something don't you need to start with something really simple for a first step don't you?

Sir, you jumped in with your wooden sward, again . As usual, isn't it.

Almaz-Antei is ready to TOT 9M96 series to India. That will be a real thing.
And of course 3M22EI aka Brahmos II hypersonics (3M22 Tsirkon special export version for India).

If it is true then also its few more licence production proposals. Nothing more.

It is unparallelled TOT level ever in my book.
Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

And I wonder, if that is the case, then why the hell Russians kept latest Yasen-class for them self and older generation Akula-class for India.

 

[Zebra]

we are buying Pak-fa off the shelf ...............

and we invested 4 billion $ in FGFA , because we want to modify it according to our specifications .................Both are DIFFERENT Fighter planes, with different Aerodynamic designs ........and we have to do all the tests like RCS , wind tunnel tests again .........Russians did not want twin seat version .but Indian Air-force prefer twin seat Aircraft .

and modifications require Money .

we will get 50% Ip rights ......that means if we sell FGFA to other countries then we will earn 50% money (LIKE SELLING BRAMHOS TO VIETNAM )

if Pak-Fa & FGFA are Good fighter planes then it is extremely good deal for India ..........


AND YES WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH EXPERTS TO DEVELOP MODERN TECHNOLOGIES THIS IS WHY WE NEED TO SPEND 4 BILLION $ , SO THAT WE CAN CREATE EXPERTS , PRACTICALLY WORKING ON SUCH PROJECTS IS THE BEST WAY TO LEARN & CREATE EXPERTS ...WE DONT HAVE EXPERTS BECAUSE PRACTICALLY WE NEVER WORKED IN SUCH PROJECTS .

Sir, stop day dreaming.

BRAMHOS is based on old soviet / Russian design. So it won't mind Russians if Indians can get few orders.

Its totally different story.

And you compare it wit latest aircraft business.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Will India consider buying a few PAK FA till FGFA becomes ready for induction?

 

[airtel]

The only "improvement" can be done is 2-seat cockpit.

what is the need of changing Name of Fighter Plane ( & paying development cost ) if we just have convert single seat cockpit to twin seat cockpit ?? we also bought twin seat Sukhoi 30 mki & twin seat rafael (8 out of 36 Rafael are twin seater ) without Name changing .

Stealth? What can be done to improve it over the current state?

India bought RAM coating TOT from France in Rafael deal .................why ? what is the official RCS value of PAK-FA ?? compare that with F-22 .

Supercruise? It is 2100km/h even now with Item 117 engines (with normal payload of 4550kg and half of fuel inside). What improvement do you suggest? The first Space speed?

super-cruise is Ok but We want your Latest izdeliye 30 engine in FGFA

Advanced sensors? Can you imagine more sophisticated suite than N036 and 101-KS?
Networking? Navigation? Don't make me laugh...
So Indians will get extended TOT and an ability to install indigenous avionics and weapons if they want.
And something tells me that Israeli gear will not be used while they don't have gear of the same sophistication level.

yes countries like france , swedon & Israel have many other sensors too which can be included in FGFA , afterall it is a Big plane suitable for Such Upgrades .

also we want to use western weapons like Meteor .

 

[airtel]

F-35s AESA isn't exactly a Gripen AESA for which you are expecting technology transfer.



UK is not entitled to any sensitive technologies,at the end of the day their contribution to a 1.5 trillion dollar program is 2 billion dollars.

It is your fault for expecting anyone to give up technology like powerful AESA radars and jet engines.

yes this is what i am telling to him (read my reply ) ...............nobody want to provide critical technologies , if Russia is providing TOT , then it is not a bad deal .

The article you linked me to regarding the UK proves nothing,of course you are going to have to acquire the spare EW hardware from the OEM,that's called acquisition of spares,maintenance deals with fitting that hardware on to the aircraft.

And please do refer to the sources I provided you in my post and don't judge so fast , the article clearly says Japan will offer heavy airframe maintenance,repairs,overhauls and upgrades and that a similiar setup is being prepared for Europe.

The statement that F-35s cannot be maintained and serviced outside of USA is baseless and false,don't try to mix it up with acquiring spares.

1.5 trillion $ is not the development cost of F-35 program , UK invested 10% of the development cost .....................and yes Israel has those source codes and they modified and included their systems .

in Europe only Italy has a Maintenance center , Japan has center just because of China and Air-frames are not that critical component , can they repair engines or radars ? ........................and may be all the technicians are Americans .

there is no Maintenance center in Korea .

 

[airtel]

Sir, stop day dreaming.

BRAMHOS is based on old soviet / Russian design. So it won't mind Russians if Indians can get few orders.

Its totally different story.

And you compare it wit latest aircraft business.

Russia developed 2 fighter plane platforms >>>> MIG 1.44 & sukhoi T-50 .

China bought MIG 1.44 and modified it and now it is known as J-20.

India is also Buying Sukhoi T-50 Platform .................and will modify it .

Joint development is not the right word .

why Russia is selling these platforms ?? because they need money .

 

[gadeshi]

what is the need of changing Name of Fighter Plane ( & paying development cost ) if we just have to make it twin seat cockpit ?? we also bought twin seat Sukhoi 30 mki & twin seat rafael (8 out of 36 rafaels are twin seater ) without Name changing .

Well, IAF wants twin seater and it will create a major changes into initial design which has not presumed twin seaters at all. Please ask LM guys what will happen if somebody will want twin seater F-35 and how much will it cost.
Moreover this IAF wants a number of IAF-specific weapons, hardware and software to be integrated into. Those systems and weapons will not be critical part of plane's integrated avionics suite (it has open architecture) but will take time and money to integrate, test and certify it.

India bought RAM coating TOT from France in Rafael deal .................why ? what is the official RCS value of PAK-FA ?? compare that with F-22 .

Congratulations friend!
You have tould 3 "naive" (politely said) things in one sentance!
1 - Modern planes don't use external RAM coatings. This is because you want to get even little effect on them their layer thickness must be at least 3/4 of the wavelength (full or double wavelength in the most problematic places).
Modern approach is to create construction-embeddable layered RAM tissues and fibers which can be sealed einside internal and external parts of a plane without harming their structural strength. Putting several layers of such RAM tissues between non-RAM tissue layers creates major RF interferrence between them which leads to signal stagnation without making "big Chockolate tier" .
The only external part of RF reduction measures is a topcoat which is a dielectric paint making the plane body electrodynamically seamless thus reducing reflection spikes on different materials parts connections.
So if Frenchies have managed to sell external RAM coatings to IAF than somebody in IAF must be put on castody for that
2 - RAMs from France? Are you serious?
3 - To compare F-22 RCS to T-50 one you need official all aspect reflections diagrams for both of them with exact numbers. All we have on F-22 today is some fanboys words about "metal marble" and 0.00001m2 which is physically impossible (especially looking at 0.01v2 for AGM-129 ACM which has 10 times less physical dimensions and has no problem places like canopy, radar antenna, wing mechanization parts etc.).
USAF generals are rather more realistic on that talking about stealth as of "Recon, Recon, Recon, Planning, Planning, Planning and then low RCS" (c).

supercruise is Ok but We want your Latest Item -30 engine in FGFA which has superior thrust , More life & more fuel efficiency .

It's not so much to wait cause UEC will deliver the first Item-30 specimens for testing in Q4 2017. Those engines will be installed on T-50-9 (1-09) and T-50-10. Just remember my previous posts from KNAAZ insiders that T-50-9 will be the final prototype for airframe and engines changes

yes countries like france , swedon & Israel have many other sensors too which can be included in FGFA , afterall it is a Big plane suitable for Such Upgrades .
also we want to use western weapons like Meteor .

I'm not question that those countries have their own sensors and gear.
I'm telling about their capabilities comparable to those already are in T-50 program.
1 - Do those countries ever have GaN-TRAMs based DAESA radar with capabilities even close to N036 Belka?
2 - Do those countries ever have bispectral (IR+UV) 360deg coverable optical systems even closely comparable to 101-KS?
3 - Do those countries ever have GaN AESA-based passive RF surviallance and ESM/ECM suits even closely comparable to L-265 Gimalayas suite?
4 - The same for integrated data fusion and data linking systems like TKS-3 and APD-518/520.

The answer is NO for both these questions.
And while having capabilities inferior or rather inferior to Russian ones all the foreign systems are several times more expensive while don't presume any TOT to customer

 

[gadeshi]

Russia developed 2 fighter plane platforms >>>> MIG 1.44 & sukhoi T-50 .
China bought MIG 1.44 and modified it and now it is known as J-20.
India is also Buying Sukhoi T-50 Platform .................and will modify it .
Joint development is not the right word .
why Russia is selling these platforms ?? because they need money .

So USA sells F-35 and the other stuff because they need money...
All the countries sell high tech gear because hi tech gear (especially weapons) sales show countries real potential, formates alliances (based on common platforms) and allow a seller to influe the world through its technological position and potential with allies voices in background.

 

[StealthFlanker]

2 - Do those countries ever have bispectral (IR+UV) 360deg coverable optical systemseven closely comparable to 101-KS?

IR + UV actually inferior to staring IIR sensor such as DDM-NG or DAS

1 - Do those countries ever have GaN-TRAMs based DAESA radar with capabilities even close to N036 Belka?
3 - Do those countries ever have GaN AESA-based passive RF surviallance and ESM/ECM suits even closely comparable to L-265 Gimalayas suite?

What make you think either N036 or Himalayas are GaN based , L-265 dont even use electronic scanning as far as i know
What so special about L-265 Himalayas compared to ASQ-239 or Spectra ? , nothing

4 - The same for integrated data fusion and data linking systems like TKS-3 and APD-518/520.

I will not discuss sensor fusion because that rather hard to quantify but there is really nothing special about APD-518 , it is no better than Link 16 per say

 

[gadeshi]

IR + UV actually inferior to staring IIR sensor such as DDM-NG or DAS
What make you think either N036 or Himalayas are GaN based , L-265 dont even use electronic scanning as far as i know
What so special about L-265 Himalayas compared to ASQ-239 or Spectra ? , nothing
I will not discuss sensor fusion because that rather hard to quantify but there is really nothing special about APD-518 , it is no better than Link 16 per say

You need official numbers and characteristic data to make such a bright statements.
But you haven't any, even for the western systems, not talking about Russian ones.

L-256 use electronic scanning using N036 antennas to issue jamming signals.
It will be surprise for you but even Sozvezdiye sat nav and com system uses active scanning modules inside.

Many of the technical "data" of western systems is formed by experts guessings based on open sources and some previous systems comparisons (SPECTRA is a bright example).
So we need rather more info to make reliable and sane comparisons.

However, I've found Indian FGFA negotiators delegation reactions and behavior very significant last times.
The point is they earlier wanted to augment and/or substitute Russian systems with western ones wherever is possible (like they've done on Su-30MKI) but after the series of in-depth presentations and trials they have almost abandoned those plans while started to insist on as full TOT as possible instead.
It is very prominent sign in my books.

 

[gadeshi]

And the news I've mentioned in the reply above - a new UEC CEO Alexander Artiukhov has stated that Item 30 is ready for testing! Item 30 flight tests will begin in Q4 2017:
https://ria.ru/arms/20161020/1479626388.html

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3719884

 

[StealthFlanker]

Modern planes don't use external RAM coatings. This is because you want to get even little effect on them their layer thickness must be at least 3/4 of the wavelength (full or double wavelength in the most problematic places).

that is not necessary true , MnZn ferrite RAM with thickness of merely 3 mm can have absorbing rating of -5dB ( or absorbing by 68% ) at 2 GHz ( wavelength of 2 Ghz wave is about 15 cm long )

To compare F-22 RCS to T-50 one you need official all aspect reflections diagrams for both of them with exact numbers. All we have on F-22 today is some fanboys words about "metal marble" and 0.00001m2 which is physically impossible (especially looking at 0.01v2 for AGM-129 ACM which has 10 times less physical dimensions and has no problem places like canopy, radar antenna, wing mechanization parts etc.).

I been posting the scattering graph for F-35 far too many time so i don't think it necessary to post it again.There is no scattering graph for AGM-129 as far as iam concern , what you talking about is scattering graph for AGM-86 , which is actually quite interesting because contrary to what you said it does has problematic place
1- the intake => cavity return
2- folded wing => discontinuity
3-No RAM => skin reflection
4- This is the most interesting thing but you guys always overlook , the AGM-86 , due to its small size ,its fin and wing already in the Mie region even at 8-12 Ghz frequency , so it suffers significantly from surface wave diffraction and creeping way return ( basically exactly the reason why stealth aircraft would have higher RCS at VHF and similar frequency ).

About canopy , there are transparent RAM too