Something Rotten in the State of the Armed Forces

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Yusuf, May 18, 2015.

  1. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    The Armed Forces have reasons to be pleased with the Modi Government. While the sought acquisitions are being procured, peacetime soldiering seems to be at its best. Whether the services are preparing themselves for the future war, which should be their primary task (and the sole reason for acquisitions) is an issue which is neither troubling the Government nor the Armed Forces.
    By taking recourse to Government-to-Government deals and “Make in India” (indigenisation) route, the Government is clearing the procurement list of the services which is growing by the day. For example, to fight a two-front war (with Pakistan and China), the Army, in addition to its planned modernisation, wants a new mountain strike corps (90,000 troops costing Rs 1,10,000 crore to be spent over eight years).
    The Air Force besides having got its combat (fighting) aircraft strength authorisation raised to 42 squadrons from 39.5 squadrons (each with 20 aircraft) has sought a plethora of force multipliers and transport aircraft. Not to be left behind the Navy wants nuclear and conventional submarines, surface ships, aircraft carriers and so on.
    Dire Shortages
    Recently, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Standing Committee on Defence have lamented the lack of war preparedness, especially of the Army. But no one, least of all the Army, seems to be losing sleep over it. Both reports have said that the Army does not have necessary War Wastage Reserves (ammunition, stores and other wherewithal for war) to fight a war.
    To recall, the then Army Chief General V.K. Singh in 2012 had written to the Prime Minister (the letter got leaked to the media) that the Army is not fit for war. Earlier, a desperate Army Chief, General V.P. Malik with his back to the wall, had told the media during the 1999 Kargil conflict that, ‘the Army will fight with whatever it has.’
    Army’s Lethargy
    The truth is that the Army does not want to spend over Rs 100,000 crore from its kitty on invisible WWR assets when it believes a war with either adversary is unlikely. The logic being that both adversaries are doing what they want, and India, having adopted a strategic defensive posture, is unlikely to retaliate against nuclear armed foes. Pakistan continues with its proxy war, and China with its border transgressions; the Modi Government has accepted these aggressions as the new “normal”.
    Poor Capabilities
    The moot question then is why are the Armed Forces collecting goodies for a two-front war, which is impossible to win? Before answering this, a cursory glance will show how Indian Armed Forces are way behind the adversary’s capabilities. The Pakistan military has five integrated branches: Army, Air Force, Navy, Strategic Plans Divisions (responsible for nuclear weapons), and Inter-Services-Intelligence (responsible for sub-conventional operations or terrorism).
    The Chinese military has six integrated branches: Army, Air Force, Navy, Second Artillery (for nuclear weapons), Space and Cyber. Moreover, there is interoperability (ability to work together in war) between Pakistan and China. Thus, if Pakistan was to fight with India, China could help its ally with its formidable space, ballistic and cruise missiles, armed unmanned vehicles, cyber and seamless operational logistics, without showing its hand.
    In a Comfort Zone
    The Indian military has three branches, namely, Army, Air force and Navy, all of which work in compartmentalised fashion. Leave alone a two-front war, the Government has never asked the services to show a combined assessment of the Chinese threat based upon which acquisitions should be sought. Both the Army and the Air Force want to be in the lead rather than a supporting role in a land war; hence both desire capabilities much more than are necessary.
    The Army’s added problem is its Generals who have risen in rank fighting counter-insurgency operations since 1990 in Jammu and Kashmir which is their comfort zone. They pay lip service to war preparedness which explains their preference for empire building at the cost of WWR.
    The Navy, since the November 26, 2008, Mumbai terror attacks, has found comfort, visibility and status in coastal defence and anti-piracy operations rather than war preparedness. Instead of operational worthiness and rightful use of its limited expensive vessels, over which the previous Naval Chief, Admiral D.K. Joshi resigned in frustration, the Navy talks big like interdicting Chinese vessels in the Indian Ocean.
    The Modi Government has abdicated its primary responsibility: to ask the three services to prepare a combined threat assessment of Pakistan and China for which acquisitions are sought. Otherwise, the defence allocations of Rs 2,46,727 crore for 2015-16 will be a wasted sum.

    http://www.thequint.com/2015/may/18...ate-of-the-armed-forces#.VVmBsBaGREY.facebook
     
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  3. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Another little gem from Pravin Swamy ex of Indian Express Fame.

    Some of the points raised by him in the article do merit serious introspection.

    http://www.thequint.com/2015/may/18...ate-of-the-armed-forces#.VVmBsBaGREY.facebook

     
  4. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    some of the points raised in the article I find very pertinent.

    1. After the leaked letter of Gen.V.K.Singh to the RM regarding the lack of ammunition in the Army, the issue has been swept under the carpet it seems. Even the CAG report does not seem to have been taken seriously.

    2. We were talking of a integrated command structure what has happened to it.
     
  5. Kashif

    Kashif Regular Member

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    What is a purpose of Spending 110000 Crores for new Mountain strike corps if Army is already facing shortage of ammo?
     
  6. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Because corps is a long term strategy and take long to build than buying ammo!
     
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  7. Rowdy

    Rowdy Co ja kurwa czytam! Senior Member

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    I think regarding point 2 , parrikar said he is working on the structure and will release it in July. He probably said that in the RSTV interview after Rafael deal
     
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  8. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    Some details:

    http://swarajyamag.com/politics/can-manohar-parrikar-be-another-yb-chavan/
     
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  9. Rowdy

    Rowdy Co ja kurwa czytam! Senior Member

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  10. Kashif

    Kashif Regular Member

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    Who knows when you are going to face war, may be after a month or year so if you dont have ammo for more than 20 days than why not fill this gap first rather than spending 110000 crores to MSC on a long term strategy.
     
  11. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Buddy a conflict with Pakistan is not going to last for more than 4-5 days. You do not have the depth nor the resources to keep up the war. 20 days is good enough.
     
    SANITY and jus like this.
  12. Sakal Gharelu Ustad

    Sakal Gharelu Ustad Detests Jholawalas Moderator

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    20 days are too much for Pakistan!...................
     
  13. OneGrimPilgrim

    OneGrimPilgrim Senior Member Senior Member

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    whr invaders hv been eulogised, heroes binned!!
    Parrikar had recently revealed on a zee media organised programme that, "no file that comes to me stays for more than 4 hrs with me."

    also, his recent confident and plainspeak statement that he would change the face of the Armed Forces is something that should swell any nationalist's faith. people may ask do you see any change in your personal life since the new Govt. took over? my reply would be, that materialistically speaking, perhaps not yet, but in spirit, definitely! its such streaks of optimistic as well as realistic confidence, so unique to Armed Services personnel, that i had been longing so dearly to see in our political-class too, and which pumps my chest with much lifeforce, which was so sorely lacking in the leadership-drought affected previous years. i clearly remember the anguish i used to feel over the statements and antics of the stooges of the previous govt. and its inconsequential (non)-leader, and hence, all the more, the change in the air is vigour-inducing!
     
  14. blueblood

    blueblood Senior Member Senior Member

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    He is Praveen Sawhney, a different jackass altogether. If you want a peek inside his head.

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/delusionary-generals.67608/

    Apparently, he is the most brilliant guy ever to join the army, with no mention of his service record ever and everybody else if a fvckin fool.

    On topic: 17 Corps is being downsized to 35000 troops and expenditure to 38,000 crores. Excellent decision IMO by DM. Boots are of no use in that terrain if army cannot afford to back them up with equipment. If army and MOD can achieve this in the next five years, then the dreams of having a full fledged strike corps won't be shattered.
     
  15. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    A patent lie and allegation without a base. What the CAG report says is this :

    now can Parveen Swamy tell us how and since when is OFB under Army ?
     
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  16. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Is it the Army that believes the war with adversaries is unlikely ?
    In fact it is the Babus in MoD, OFB, DRDO, Defence Finance and journalist like Swamy who believe that Armed Forces are waste of money and burden on exchequer. There is not going to be any war so what is the hurry to make up WWR, what is the hurry to research, develop and innovate, what is the hurry in making payments and dues to Armed Forces, what is the hurry in imports and acquisition. Army Armed Forces officer who has worked at their HQs in Delhi and interacted with these worthies know it fully well that for these Babus there is never going to be war. The MoD bureaucracy is neither trained, nor have understanding nor an aptitudes for defence or war. They are just running the system in laid back manner. "Chalta Hai".. earning their wages and making houses in Delhi.. for them there is never going to be war and even if there is one, it is not going to effect them any way..

    All others that matter for war fighting like DRDO, OFB, DPSUs, Finance, BRO, MES, etc are worst civilians than civilian themselves. Those who have not fired even a single bullet make rifles.. those who have thrown away from the Army ensure quality ...

    And Lo, Parveen Swamy says Army is responsible for it..
     
  17. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    One of the important aspect of being prepared for War is to train. In training, the vital aspect is firing the ammunition which one is supposed to fire in war. How does the soldier fire when some of the critical ammunition is not available due to shortage and is under what is called "Restriction List".

    CAG report says this :

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    Prior to January 2010 (when the first Roll on Indent was not introduced), Army placed annual target on the OFB before the commencement of the
    financial year. However, post January 2010, with the approval of Ministry a consolidated indent was placed on OFB for five years (2009-10 to 2013-14) for the quantities of ammunition to be supplied to the Army during this period.

    Based on the Roll on Indent, OFB was to work out its budgetary requirement and communicate to Finance Division of the Ministry at the time of Budget Estimates/Revised Estimates (BE/RE) after consulting AHQ (FP Dte & MGO Branch). The requirement of funds against the Roll on Indent communicated through BE by the OFB, actual allotment of funds by the Ministry and total value of ammunition supplied by OFB are as shown in Table 8 below:





    [​IMG]
     
  19. Daredevil

    Daredevil On Vacation! Administrator

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    I don't trust one word coming out of this slimeball called Praveen Swamy.
     
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  20. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    That the crux of the whole problem which dominates the minds of our politicians, bureaucrats, policy makers and even the generals - that the war will be over in three days with Pakistan. But the reality is something else. What does the history say :

    # Indo- Pak War 1947 - Oct 1948 - Dec 1948
    # Indo Pak War 1965 - 17 Days intense War
    # Indo Pak War 1971 - 05 Sep -14 Dec 1971
    # Kargil War - Mid May - 14 Jul

    Indian Neta and Babu's belief of four days war post Pokharan was brought to the ground by Pakistani General Mushraff who pulled their pants down when in spite of India having nuclear weapons he imposed a 60 days attrition war on India in Kargil. He gleefully claims that he held India by her throat.

    Wonder how Indian Army has reached this forty days (intense) figure ? Subsequently bend down to 20 days MARL? All kind courtesy Saint Antony, MMS, MoD Babus and inept and inefficient OFB. They were all busy making money and buying journalists like Parveen Swamy.
     
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  21. Kashif

    Kashif Regular Member

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    Thats the thing, see what history says and why you only expect a war with Pak despite you think china as a bigger threat.
     

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