Sanitising Hindu History is not enough

nrj

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India resisted the combined weight of several brutal Islamic armies for over 400 years. I consider that pretty damn impressive. Also Mongols would have conquered Western Europe and destroyed your beloved Christianity if it was not for the death of the great Khan Ogodei.

And part of Europe was occupied for example Balkans and Greece and there's nothing in those countries to write home about today.
Everybody fights, not everyone wins.

Indians couldn't protect their land, property and women.

Why blame outsiders & seek apology?

Blaming them for oppression is constant remainder of subcontinent's defeat & weakness.

Losers are not choosers.
 

Das ka das

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Everybody fights, not everyone wins.

Indians couldn't protect their land, property and women.

Why blame outsiders & seek apology?

Losers are not choosers.
Because these outsiders have given token apologies to other groups victimized by them and it is highly prejudiced for them not to extend the same courtesy to Hindus.
 

nrj

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Because these outsiders have given token apologies to other groups victimized by them and it is highly prejudiced for them not to extend the same courtesy to Hindus.
It is no imperative for them to extend apology. World does not bend on desires of losers.

People need to accept facts & just move on.
 

Das ka das

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It is no imperative for them to extend apology. World does not bend on desires of losers.

People need to accept facts & just move on.
The Jews were also "losers", why did they get several apologies from this organization known as the Vatican? Is it because they are also Abrahamic and thus deserving of an apology while we are nothing but heathens?

If Catholic Church really wanted to reform itself, it should offer a sincere apology to ALL the diverse peoples that it has broken, betrayed, genocided, or worse. Nothing more, nothing less.

And what's with this hate you have for heathen Hindus? Every post of yours you either mock or spew venom against us.
 

nrj

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The Jews were also "losers", why did they get several apologies from this organization known as the Vatican? Is it because they are also Abrahamic and thus deserving of an apology while we are nothing but heathens?

If Catholic Church really wanted to reform itself, it should offer a sincere apology to ALL the diverse peoples that it has broken, betrayed, genocided, or worse. Nothing more, nothing less.
Told you, world does not bend on wishes of people who could not defend themselves.

Sue catholic church for not offering apology!


And what's with this hate you have for heathen Hindus? Every post of yours you either mock or spew venom against us.
Truth is bitter. It can taste like venom in state of refusal.

--

Rather so called guardians of subcontinental society should apologize to its people since they failed to protect interests of natives who looked up to them as protectors & they had deals with oppressive outsiders including British.
 

Das ka das

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Told you, world does not bend on wishes of people who could not defend themselves.

Sue catholic church for not offering apology!




If truth is bitter. It can taste like venom in state of refusal.

--

Rather so called guardians of subcontinental society should apologize to its people since they failed to protect interests of natives who looked up to them as protectors & they had deals with oppressive outsiders including British.
What a sick case of Stockholm syndrome, instead of blaming the perpetrators, you blame the victims.

Answer my question "WHY DID THE JEWS GET APOLOGIES" from the Vatican? They were the biggest losers throughout much of history.

In an earlier post you said Hindus were too busy burning their women while Europeans were making steam engine. How does the actions of 10 percent of the population speak for the whole population. Seriously it seems people like you should apologize to Indians for giving them a persistent case of inferiority complex.

Also "truth" is very subjective. By your definition, I consider it truth that Islam and Christianity have done much more harm than good in the world.
 
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nrj

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What a sick case of Stockholm syndrome, instead of blaming the perpetrators, you blame the victims.

Answer my question "WHY DID THE JEWS GET APOLOGIES" from the Vatican? They were the biggest losers throughout much of history.
Because Vatican went selective out of political or religious bias. Now Sue them !

In an earlier post you said Hindus were too busy burning their women while Europeans were making steam engine. How does the actions of 10 percent of the population speak for the whole population. Seriously it seems people like you should apologize to Indians for giving them a persistent case of inferiority complex.
If only 10 percent of population (which is subjective statistics) was engaged in heinous crimes then what was rest of the 90% doing?

Eating popcorns over free entertainment?

They had no social responsibility to stop the shameful drama?

They had no sense of awareness to invest time in scientific research?

What were they doing?

Oh wait, yeah they were busy in castism practices & quarreling internally.

So of course there was no time to invent steam engine or anything else !

Also "truth" is very subjective. By your definition, I consider it truth that Islam and Christianity have done much more harm than good in the world.
Maybe they have done more harm. But it is you who is begging for apology from them !
 

Das ka das

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Because Vatican went selective out of political or religious bias. Now Sue them !



If only 10 percent of population (which is subjective statistics) was engaged in heinous crimes then what was rest of the 90% doing?

Eating popcorns over free entertainment?

They had no social responsibility to stop the shameful drama?

They had no sense of awareness to invest time in scientific research?

What were they doing?

Oh wait, yeah they were busy in castism practices & quarreling internally.

So of course there was no time to invent steam engine or anything else !



Maybe they have done more harm. But it is you who is begging for apology from them !
I ain't begging nobody, Stop putting words in my mouth! I just said that if Vatican is to be considered seriously then it should apologize to all of its victims regardless of religious affiliation.

As for sati, it was popularized when the Islamic barbarians made women commit Jahuar. It was not very common before that. And my source is very reliable. And any society that is under siege as Hindu society was during Islamic rule does not have capacity for reform.
 

nrj

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I ain't begging nobody, Stop putting words in my mouth! I just said that if Vatican is to be considered seriously then it should apologize to all of its victims regardless of religious affiliation.
Seeking apology is constant reminder of subcontinent's historical weakness.

They have no imperative to grant apology.

As for sati, it was popularized when the Islamic barbarians made women commit Jahuar. It was not very common before that. And my source is very reliable. And any society that is under siege as Hindu society was during Islamic rule does not have capacity for reform.
Yeah they had no capacity to reform because they had no capacity to protect themselves. They had no capacity to think forward during dark ages. All they could think about was castism, nonsense religious rituals instead of progressive science. No wonder we needed westerners to gift us political system and uniform law which would abolish inane practices. Thanks to them we never had industrial revolution on our own.
 

LurkerBaba

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India resisted the combined weight of several brutal Islamic armies for over 400 years. I consider that pretty damn impressive. Also Mongols would have conquered Western Europe and destroyed your beloved Christianity if it was not for the death of the great Khan Ogodei.

And part of Europe was occupied for example Balkans and Greece and there's nothing in those countries to write home about today.
Europeans had the balls to do reconquista of Spain. What was the Hindu response ?
 
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Das ka das

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Europeans had the balls to do reconquista of Spain. What was the Hindu response ?
Hindus did conquer, Shivaji being an example. What we did not have the balls to do is to wipe out Islam/Christianity from our territories like what Spain did. I blame our passive Dharmic philosophy for that and our continuous inability to learn from history.
 

LurkerBaba

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What we did not have the balls to do is to wipe out Islam/Christianity from our territories like what Spain did. I blame our passive Dharmic philosophy for that and our continuous inability to learn from history.
Exactly. However, such a thing cannot be attempted anymore in this day and age (a fact which many 'Hindu Nationalists' ignore)
 

Agnostic_Indian

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Hindus did conquer, Shivaji being an example. What we did not have the balls to do is to wipe out Islam/Christianity from our territories like what Spain did. I blame our passive Dharmic philosophy for that and our continuous inability to learn from history.
we had enough balls, but we also had a functional brain, rationality and tolerant mind.
 

Das ka das

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we had enough balls, but we also had a functional brain, rationality and tolerant mind.
No. I highly doubt we had a functional set of balls, otherwise subcontinent Hindu population would not decline from 75 percent to 50 percent in less than 70 years. Hinduism is finished, Accept it.
 

Agnostic_Indian

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No. I highly doubt we had a functional set of balls, otherwise subcontinent Hindu population would not decline from 75 percent to 50 percent in less than 70 years. Hinduism is finished, Accept it.
if Hinduism is declining then something is wrong with it, either it needs further renovations, or more promotions of Hinduism and ideology, etc cast system and other evils must be wiped away, and the radical Hindu groups should be controlled and shown their place, etc. and don't just look at a decline here, I think Hinduism has got many followers in west, and there Christianity is in decline, things like this happen time to time, No big deal.
 

afako

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There was only one 'Dhamma' which was successful outside of India, and it's nothing like what you want to propagate.
Dharma = Hinduism.

What Dharma you are thinking is a variation of the only Dharma.

World is all about Dharma and Anti-Dharma (Asuras).
 

Virendra

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if Hinduism is declining then something is wrong with it, either it needs further renovations, or more promotions of Hinduism and ideology, etc cast system and other evils must be wiped away, and the radical Hindu groups should be controlled and shown their place, etc. and don't just look at a decline here, I think Hinduism has got many followers in west, and there Christianity is in decline, things like this happen time to time, No big deal.
I don't think there's anything wrong with Hinduism.
It is not a talking walking body, a person. It is only a dharmic attitude towards the Universe.
Something is wrong with the people who are supposed to do the walk and talk of Hinduism, who are supposed to live it. People like us.
Something is wrong with the conduct of Dharma in this world in general and this deficiency is spread all over. It is the cause of all ills.

Regards,
Virendra
 

Virendra

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The Jews were also "losers", why did they get several apologies from this organization known as the Vatican? Is it because they are also Abrahamic and thus deserving of an apology while we are nothing but heathens?

If Catholic Church really wanted to reform itself, it should offer a sincere apology to ALL the diverse peoples that it has broken, betrayed, genocided, or worse. Nothing more, nothing less.

And what's with this hate you have for heathen Hindus? Every post of yours you either mock or spew venom against us.
Jews weren't losers. Well not in the bigger picture. They have (and have had almost always) the western economies under their influence. At many points they practically run the show.
The westerners can do without Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc etc .. but they can't without Jews.
(Hindsight: you see a tiny scenario taking baby steps in the India IT presence at US/Europe ??)
Why are we even look at Jews. @nrj is right, our self esteem should not stoop to depend on the West obliging on our past wounds.
They played the game better than us. They beat us at it and so they ruled us. Thats it.
We will do good to learn from those wounds and do well the next time. May be even pay back. But that is not going to happen till we're wailing for apologies.
It sounds tad immature.

Regards,
Virendra
 
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civfanatic

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Firstly the Western countries didn't have constant invasions and foreign occupations to suck them dry.
Which Western countries? Most Western countries were more war-ravaged than India throughout the Medieval and Early Modern periods. This is in addition to the ravaging effects of disease epidemics like the Black Plague, which killed 30-60% of Europe's population in the 14th century.

If you want to talk about evil Muslims in particular, then the Iberian Peninsula (Spain and Portugal) was under Muslim rule for hundreds of years, until the late 1400s. This did not prevent Spain and Portugal from emerging as the preeminent economic and political powers of the world in subsequent centuries. In addition, large swathes of Southern and Eastern Europe were conquered by the Ottoman Turks between the 14th and 17th centuries. The state of Austria had to literally fight for its life on several occasions; its capital of Vienna was besieged by the Turks in 1529 and again in 1683. In between, it fought numerous costly wars (both in human and monetary terms) against the Ottomans. This did not prevent Austria from emerging as a Great Power in the 18th century, and taking part in the European Enlightenment.

We need to stop blaming foreigners for everything wrong with India today. It is not only historically inaccurate but is also detrimental to our ability to introspect and move forwards.


Second, that the people in west are less harsh on women now has nothing to do with Christianity.
I never claimed anywhere that the the social reforms in the West were due to Christianity. All I claimed was that Christians, as a group of people, were able to reform themselves, while Hindus were not. They were able to reform themselves precisely because the Christians themselves, or at least a few key Christian individuals, decided to oppose the dogmas and corruption of the Church. This had long-standing effects which made key events in Western history possible, including the Reformation, Scientific Revolution, and Enlightenment. The American founding fathers, who were products of the Enlightenment, were themselves devout Christians.
 

afako

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My question was why the Christians were able to reform their society, when the Hindus failed to do so.
What Reforms were carried out? Why did they have to carry out the Reforms?

What led them into such Situations?

Many Hindus like to claim that Hindu society was much more liberal and inviting to change than that of Abrahamic religions, who have a reputation of being rigid and suppressing any sign of heresy or dissent.
Every Muslim is a Slave of Allah.

Every Christian is a Born Sinner.

Every Hindu is Free to Pursue his path to Self-Realization.

In the above both Desert Ideologies, there is no way you can go out. Apostasy is Death in Islam.

There is no concept of Apostasy in Dharma.

If so, how were Christian Western Europeans - the followers of an Abrahamic religion - able to create a rational, scientific civilization that far surpassed what the Hindus or any one else had created up to that point?
Did Christianity emerge in Europe?

Infact Europeans are people who had lush fertile lands to play with but sucked upto Desert Ideologies!

They had no Civilization to begin with. They neither have. Everything is Robbed, Rehased from Indic Civilization and other Cultures.

Define rational. Define Scientific. Period.

The modern Hindu "reform" movements such as the Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj all emerged in the 19th century in the context of European colonialism. The Hindus were shocked at their perceived backwardness in comparison to the Europeans, not only technologically but also (in their minds) socially and intellectually, and this prompted change among them.
That was what the Europeans Propagated to mask their Backwardness from the World.

You are speaking and peddling the Western POV.

You are playing in between the -isms scripted by the Europeans.

It was only during this time that practices such as sati and the caste system were formally denounced by Hindus.
From where did Sati come into Dharmic India? How did it Start?

Allah-oh-Akbar!

Against from the same Deserts where Western Europeans had to rob one religion to show to something to the World!

How Civilized indeed! :rofl:

It was also during this time that many Hindu texts were re-interpreted, with the view of making them more acceptable by European standards
.

They were re-interpreted to fit into the Euro-Centric World view where White Man, Christianity, Europeans are Civilized and those who imitate and worship them are civilizing and the rest of the world uncivilized barbarians waiting to be civilized by the west.

Where the Value System of -isms was propounded to fit the Non-European viewpoint of Europeans as scripted by them.

Where Europeans cannot be questioned as they are the behemoth of civilization according to their peddled view.

Ancient Indian sexual ethics and morals, for example, were discarded by Hindus as being "primitive" and "shameful", and Victorian morals were embraced. Gradually, these changes began shaping Hindu society as a whole.
Western POV: Humans were Cave Dwelling, Tree Eating Stone age Mentality backward and Primitive barbarians. Man became civilized after wearing Clothes, after speaking English, after following Democracy, after accepting Secularism.

Indic POV: Humans were Civilized to begin with. Infact, its the other way. India became less civilized as outside ideologies started infiltrating in India along with their backwardness.
 

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