Sanitising Hindu History is not enough

Discussion in 'Religion & Culture' started by Das ka das, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. Das ka das

    Das ka das Tihar Jail Banned

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    “His Majesty the king has ordered that there shall be no Brahmins in his land and that they should be banished.”

    “In the name of his Majesty I order that no Hindu can or shall perform marriages…”

    “The marriages of the supplicants are superstitious acts or functions which include Hindu rites and ceremonies as well as cult, adoration and prayers of Hindu temples…”

    “I order that no Hindu temples be erected in any of the territories of my King… and that Hindu temples which already have been erected be not repaired…”

    Anybody familiar with the brutalisation of Hindu customs and practices, indeed Hindu faith and belief, in fact, Hindu society, could mistakenly believe these extracts have been taken from royal decrees issued during Muslim rule. The harshness with which suppression is prescribed in these decrees, the callous disregard that is advocated for the other’s sentiment, the cruelty that is so palpable in both thought and action, suggest that these firman could have been issued by one of the ‘Shadows of God’ who ruled this land, laying to waste Hindu lives and temples in the name of faith.

    But these are not extracts from firman issued by the Mughal court of, say, Alamgir Abul Muzaffar Muhi u’d-Din Mohammed Aurangzeb, popularly known as Emperor Aurangzeb. They have been excerpted from firman issued by the Portuguese who ruled Goa and recognised no religion other than Christianity as the legitimate means of communion with god. It was no secular rule that they imposed, but a ruthless system of pillage disguised as trade and a cruel administration for whom Hindus were nothing more than “supplicants” to be crushed into submission or exiled into oblivion.

    The horrors inflicted on Galileo Galilei by the Inquisition — the Vatican has now admitted that the Church was wrong and Galileo was right — are well known. Not that well-known, and tragically so, are the hideous crimes committed by the Goa Inquisition. Every child reads about Galileo’s trial and how it is symbolic of the triumph of science over faith. But there is no reference — indeed, all reference is scrupulously avoided, most of it has been diligently erased from our collective memory by our eminent historians who have diligently sanitised the past of its discomfiting facts — to the brutal attempts of the Church to stamp out Hinduism in the territories controlled by the Portuguese in India.

    And this silence is not because there exists no evidence: There exist, in full text, orders issued by the Portuguese Viceroy and the Governor. There exist, in written records and travelogues, penned not by the persecuted but by the persecutors, full details of the horrors perpetrated in the name of Christ the Compassionate. Hindus who dared oppose the persecution were punished, swiftly and mercilessly. Those who were fortunate got away with being banished. The less fortunate had their property seized and auctioned — the money was used, in large measures, for furthering proselytisation. The least fortunate were forced to serve as slave labour on the galleys that transported loot from Indian shores to Portuguese coffers.

    Viceroy D Constantine de Braganca issued an order on April 2, 1560, instructing that Brahmins should be thrown out of Goa and other areas under Portuguese control. They had a month’s time to sell their property — it is obvious who gained from such distress sale. Those found violating the viceregal order, it was declared, would have their properties seized. Another order was issued, this time by Governor Antonio Morez Barreto, on February 7, 1575, decreeing that the estates of Brahmins whose “presence was prejudicial to Christianity” would be confiscated and used for “providing clothes to the New Christians”.

    The attitude of the Portuguese administrators in India and the Church hardened over the years, to a point where each fiat, each decree, each order, each letter, became an instrument of religious persecution. The Third Concilio Provincial — a gathering of bishops and other clerics — met in 1585 to review, among other things, the progress of converting the ‘heathens’ to the ‘only faith’. The Concilio adopted a resolution which said, “His Majesty the king has on occasion ordered the Viceroys and Governors of India that there should be no Brahmins in his lands, and that they should be banished therefrom together with the physicians and other infidels who are prejudicial to Christianity, after taking the opinion of the Archbishop and other religious persons who have experience in the matter. As the orders of His Majesty in this regard have not been executed, great impediments in the way of conversion and the community of New Christians have followed and continue to follow.”

    One can quote from many other orders, resolutions and instructions that resulted in the hideous Vatican-backed Goa Inquisition. The details are not unknown to most of us; they are definitely well known to the Vatican. The reason I have raised the issue of the Goa Inquisition is two-fold. First, Pope Benedict XVI and other princes of the Church should bear in mind the horrors inflicted on Hindus in the name of Christianity before they allege intolerance towards Christians. Second, the Vatican owes an apology for the crimes committed during the Goa Inquisition; it must apologise and repent for its misdeeds against Hindus and gross attempts to stamp out Hinduism. Not to do so would amount to continued endorsement of the crimes and the unfair practices of missionaries that still continue unabated and unreformed.

    Fifteen years ago, the Vatican issued a 14-page document, ‘apologising’ and ‘repenting’ for not doing enough to save Europe’s Jews from the Holocaust. While it is common knowledge that Pope Pius XII did not feel particularly appalled by Hitler’s ‘final solution’, the Vatican claimed in its 1998 document that he was unaware of the concentration camps, the mass slaughter, the gas chambers and the furnaces. The document, understandably, failed to impress Jews who made it clear that Pope Benedict XVI was not welcome to visit Israel unless he offered an unqualified apology and made public documents of that period which are now stored in the Vatican’s archives. The Vatican may have eliminated the phrase “perfidious Jews” from its liturgy and Pope John Paul II may have made it fashionable for the Pontiff to refer to Jews as “older brothers”, these are seen as no more than meaningless, insincere gestures.

    The purpose of securing an apology for the Goa Inquisition is not to belittle the Vatican, but to drive home the point that it cannot seek to occupy the moral high ground till such time it has apologised and atoned for the sins committed against Hindus – individually and collectively. If the Vatican can say sorry to others, there is no reason why it cannot say sorry to Hindus. Their faith is no less than those of the Book.

    Sanitising Hindu history not enough | Niti Central
     
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  3. afako

    afako Regular Member

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    Sanitizing the Indic Civilization of all Outside Ideological Cults and the follow Bastardized -isms which follow them is not the only solution.

    Propagation of Dharma outside India and bringing the world back to Peace is the real solution.
     
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  4. dhananjay1

    dhananjay1 Regular Member

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    There is no moral high ground for Vatican whether they apologize for the Goan inquisition or not.
     
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  5. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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    Christianity however is a better religion than hinduism . it has no caste system . treatment of women is also better .
     
  6. tramp

    tramp Senior Member Senior Member

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    Come on, there is nothing like a "better" religion. More people have died in wars over faith than all the other massacres combined through human history. And Vatican is guilty of a lot of blood on its hands. Though for now they pretend to be so very dovish.
    If you read history properly you can see how women were treated by Catholics through ages... It is after the Renaissance and evolution of concepts of radical humanism that that women's rights began to get more accepted.
     
  7. afako

    afako Regular Member

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    Hinduism is not a Religion.

    Christianity's Competitors are Islam and Judaism.

    Caste System is the Hindu Social Hierarchy,

    It is the Only Proven System which is still Working.

    The World after trying out several mercantile systems for economy is returning to Caste System only. :rofl:
     
  8. ashdoc

    ashdoc Senior Member Senior Member

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    maybe you are upper caste so you are comfortable with caste system . but the vast majority of hindus are not .

    thats why the BJP constantly loses elections . to the mass of population BJP means brahminical dominance which they dont want .they are more comfortable with the congress' muslim appeasement and christian leader sonia .
     
  9. Das ka das

    Das ka das Tihar Jail Banned

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    Stop confusing Western culture and Christianity. Treatment of women in Europe was horrendous when Christianity took center stage, it was not for nothing that the period was called the DARK AGES. Seriously buddy you don't know jack about Christianity or Hinduism to continue to make such idiotic claims. The level of self hate you show in your religion and culture is also appalling.
     
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  10. Das ka das

    Das ka das Tihar Jail Banned

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    BJP lost 2004 due to its negligence of the rural poor, caste had very little to do with it. In 2009, declaring Advani as PM candidate was the major reason for BJP's downfall. And BJP was traditionally dominated by Banias not Brahmins. Dynamic leaders such as Modi are OBC. Come to Gujarat, you will see SC's, ST's, and Muslims enthusiastically supporting Modi.
     
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  11. gokussj9

    gokussj9 Senior Member Senior Member

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    I have seen many posts on this forum in this regard. Let me give you some quotes directly from Gitopanisad to clear this
    confusion.

    BG 4.13

    catur-varnyam maya srstam
    guna-karma-vibhagasah
    tasya kartaram api mam
    viddhy akartaram avyayam

    "According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me. And, although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the non-doer, being unchangeable."

    So this three modes of material nature basically are mode of goodness(sattva-guna), passion(rajo-guna) and ignorance(tamo-guna). Each one of us is situated in one of these through our behavior and desires due to our past karmic activity. Brahmanas are situated in mode of goodness, Kshatriyas in mode of passion, Vaishya in Passion+ ignorance and Sudras in ignorance. Now it is clear from the above verse that it is the work that one does, qualifies him to be in a particular varna and it is not based on birth. This caste system is a rather bastardized version of this actual varna system where one born in a brahmana family automatically becomes a brahmana which is a farce(I am in this category actually :laugh:).

    Similarly you must have across this verse as well

    janmana jayate sudrah
    samskarad bhaved dvijah
    veda-pathad bhaved vipro
    brahma janatiti brahmanah

    "By birth one is a sudra (lowest caste), by the purificatory process one becomes a dvija (higher caste), by study of the Vedas one becomes a vipra, and one who knows Brahman is a brahmana."

    So the real problem is the twisting of principles to actually suit one's needs and does not reflect the actual Dharmic principles.

    In the 18th chapter of Bhagvad Gita, the functions of the varna system are explained

    18.41
    brahmana-ksatriya-visam
    sudranam ca parantapa
    karmani pravibhaktani
    svabhava-prabhavair gunaih

    "Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by their qualities of work, O chastiser of the enemy, in accordance with the modes of nature."

    18.42

    samo damas tapah saucam
    ksantir arjavam eva ca
    jnanam vijnanam astikyam
    brahma-karma svabhava-jam

    "Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, wisdom, knowledge, and religiousness--these are the qualities by which the brahmanas work."

    18.43
    sauryam tejo dhrtir daksyam
    yuddhe capy apalayanam
    danam isvara-bhavas ca
    ksatram karma svabhava-jam

    "Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity, and leadership are the qualities of work for the ksatriyas"

    krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam
    vaisya-karma svabhava-jam
    paricaryatmakam karma
    sudrasyapi svabhava-jam

    "Farming, cow protection and business are the qualities of work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others."

    The above shows you what varna you are actually in based on your function and qualities. There are many more qualities in 13,14 and 18 chapter, which desribe these varnas in more detail, and you can read them to get a clearer idea. For me, I believe in
    "Kalau Sudra Sambhavah" :laugh:
     
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  12. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    There was only one 'Dhamma' which was successful outside of India, and it's nothing like what you want to propagate.
     
  13. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    Why weren't Hindus able to consciously reform their own society, as the Christians had? Why did Indian society remain so caste-ridden and backwards when Europe surged ahead?

    There were Indic "reform" movements of course, a la Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and others. And these did indeed gain much acceptance and prominence in different times and locales. But all these groups were viewed separate from "mainstream" Hindu society, which was dominated by the Brahmans, and which refused to change.
     
  14. Christainity and islam are accused of perpetrating genocide,rape and arson of other cultures in order to propogate their culture but hindus have never commited such heinious acts.Anyone who has doubts about these can read articles of holocaust,colonialism,slavery in africa,islamic invasion of india etc which are readily available in the internet.
     
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  15. Das ka das

    Das ka das Tihar Jail Banned

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    I do not disagree with what you posted but I see don't see how it has any relation to my argument that Christianity is no less oppressive towards women. But then again you have a habit of making anti-Brahmin posts for no apparent reason so I won't hold it against you.
     
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  16. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    Women are no longer oppressed in Western Christian countries. The point is that Christians reformed their society, while Hindus did not.
     
  17. Das ka das

    Das ka das Tihar Jail Banned

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    They did not reform their society because of Christianity but rather in spite of it. And last time I checked such outdated customs as Sati have been rejected by Hindu society so its not true that Hindus are not reforming, albeit at a snail's pace.
     
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  18. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    My question was why the Christians were able to reform their society, when the Hindus failed to do so. Many Hindus like to claim that Hindu society was much more liberal and inviting to change than that of Abrahamic religions, who have a reputation of being rigid and suppressing any sign of heresy or dissent. If so, how were Christian Western Europeans - the followers of an Abrahamic religion - able to create a rational, scientific civilization that far surpassed what the Hindus or any one else had created up to that point?

    The modern Hindu "reform" movements such as the Brahmo Samaj and Arya Samaj all emerged in the 19th century in the context of European colonialism. The Hindus were shocked at their perceived backwardness in comparison to the Europeans, not only technologically but also (in their minds) socially and intellectually, and this prompted change among them. It was only during this time that practices such as sati and the caste system were formally denounced by Hindus. It was also during this time that many Hindu texts were re-interpreted, with the view of making them more acceptable by European standards. Ancient Indian sexual ethics and morals, for example, were discarded by Hindus as being "primitive" and "shameful", and Victorian morals were embraced. Gradually, these changes began shaping Hindu society as a whole.
     
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  19. Das ka das

    Das ka das Tihar Jail Banned

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    Hindu texts re-interpreted to suit Western ideals? Any examples?

    And I think the Christians reformed not due to any inherent redeeming quality of Christianity but rather their rejection of Christianity dictating all aspects of life as it did in the Dark Ages.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  20. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    After reading your posts again and again one can confidently say it's laborious and biased.

    Without being rude, I would like to ask, what you mean ^^^ by reform.

    Every religious school of thought claim to be reformist, including Hinduism.

    If you call them reform, then you have contradicted yourself because the so called reforms like ''Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and others'' are from the same stock i.e. from population practicing Hinduism before.

    Now when you will call them a separate entity because they are, because they took the separate path then you have no face to criticize Brahmans declaring them different or not Hindu.

    The kind of responsibility in either the case you have been thrusting upon Hinduism is foolish.

    There is no need for Hinduism to be defensive about anything because some unknown blogger says it needs reforms and examples he would give like Buddhism and Jainism and others.

    Hinduism is complete package and the kind of so called reforms others have offered or bluffed have been already offered by it, rather have been plagiarized from Hindu school of thought by them.

    Hinduism owes no responsibility to reform at the call of others who are knowingly misinterpreting it for their own agenda and different reasons. Reforms within Hinduism are happening and are intrinsic. Hindus have been model citizens and civilization of this planet till date. We do not need certificates of being improvised from Neo-Nazis.

    The discrimination of cast has been addressed by the law of the land and it can not be changed even if a majority wants to change it. Citizens of this nation has accepted it, are/were on board for it and the same is law is working very well, will work better as the economy and resources will inflate.

    If you think by pushing Hindus and Brahmans to the side line or you acting a broker negotiating cast will force Hindus to change then you are either naive or fooling yourself.

    You are free to predict Hinduism will end soon at the same time people will keep it afloat as they have been doing since 1000s of years regardless of chest thumping on castism.

    Either you take it or leave it.

    Rather planning and plotting against Hindus and giving them free advises you still cannot force Hindus to change their practices. You should give same advises to others who haven't changed a bit.
     
  21. civfanatic

    civfanatic Retired Moderator

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    Dayanand Saraswati's re-interpretation of the Vedas. Saraswati and the Arya Samaj were firmly opposed to the caste system, rituals, and idol worship, and the Vedas were re-interpreted to suit this reformist agenda. He denounced older Hindu commentaries on the Vedas such as by Uvata (11th century), Sayana (14th century), and Mahidhara (16th century) as "corruptions" of the "true Vedas". The irony, of course, is that Saraswati's own commentary on the Vedas was the ultimate of all corruptions, and was influenced tremendously by Western and Abrahamic ideals.
     

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