Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by bhramos, Sep 7, 2009.

  1. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s


    Shishir Arya, TNN 7 September 2009, 12:53am IST

    NAGPUR: The indigenous 5.56x45mm Insas (Indian National Small Arms System) rifle has been the standard assault weapon for the Indian Army since the late 1990s. However, the jawans using it in counter-insurgency operations find it ineffective.

    As part of the new Army doctrine, the gun is meant to incapacitate the enemy, rather than kill.
    Insas has a smaller calibre, which means it has less power. This is because — and it’s the official view — injuring an enemy can lead to enemy soldiers getting engaged in tending the wounded, thus yielding a tactical battlefield advantage.

    The technocrats who interacted with soldiers in the forward areas were told that this theory does not work with terrorists who, apart from attacking in small numbers, are never bothered about evacuating their injured. Hence, the soldiers say, they want to shoot to kill, rather than maim.

    The soldiers also spoke about practical difficulties in using Insas. It’s accurate but not as rugged as the AK-47 used by terrorists, they say. Also, its sling often snaps while firing, making it fall during manoeuvres. The sling also obstructs the rifle’s sight. But most of all, the size of the sling never took into account the bullet proof jacket worn by jawans. As a result, it falls short and is uncomfortable to hold. This hampers quick reaction. Insas also does not have a rapid fire feature; it shoots only three rounds in a single burst.

    ‘‘The barrel overheats with continuous firing. The magazine cracks even on falling, which is common during action. Oil spillage while firing is also major trouble,’’ said a source quoting soldiers. ‘‘Zeroing (adjusting the sight for aim) has to be done each time the rifle is opened to clean or for any other reason. Lack of proper zeroing hampers the working of night vision device,’’ said the same source.

    The total additional weight — around 40 kg with bulletproof jacket and signalling equipment — that a soldier carries is also a matter of concern, as is the colour of the rifle: they want it in brown which offers better camouflaging. On the positive side, Insas’s transparent magazine helps soldiers keep a count of bullets.

    Former director general of infantry, Lt General Shanker Prasad, said Insas is antiquated and the Infantry needs a modern rifle. The Army has repeatedly asked for new assault weapons, but nothing has moved. It’s learnt that forces are now expecting new indigenously developed AK-47 rifle said to be an improvement on the original.

    Saddled with Insas, Army wants new AK-47s - India - NEWS - The Times of India
     
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  3. John

    John Guest

    Rashtriya Rifles For Optical Sights On AK-47s

    The Indian Army's Rashtriya Rifles (RR) counter-insurgency infantry force is looking to add a modern optical sight to primary assault weapon, the AK-47. A global request for information has been put out to a large list of companies, including Russia's NPO (Novosibirsk) Optics State Corporation, American firms Trijicon and EOTech, Raytheon's Canadian subsidiary Ernst Leitz Canada (ELCAN), Swiss optics major Oerlikon Contraves, Romanian sight major IOR Valdada and British firm United Scientific Instruments (USI) among a few others. The RR has specified that it would prefer an optical sight with a zeroing mechanism and one that is compatible with other small-arms without modification.

    Recent reports suggest -- and this is corroborated by the Army's own RFI from earlier this year -- that the INSAS rifle is creating a great deal of disenchantment in the infantry. The Army had therefore put out a global RFI earlier this year for a "modern assault rifle" of "any calibre". Technical evaluations of the bidders is expected to begin in October with the Americans, Israelis, Belgians and Russians looking with supreme interest at the prospect of selling India hundreds, potentially thousands, of assault rifles or, at the very least, the technology to build them locally. Yet another upgrade study for the INSAS, on the hand, is underway. It would, of course, be far preferable, if the Ordnance Factory and DRDO could pull up their socks and concertedly pull the INSAS up to the standards that the Army wants, rather than force the government to thoughtlessly squander even more money on small arms from foreign vendors

    LiveFist - The Best of Indian Defence: Rashtriya Rifles For Optical Sights On AK-47s
     
  4. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    i think we already brought AK-103, with license production,
    may be these guys are talking about this new AK.
     
  5. Arun thevar

    Arun thevar Regular Member

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    Man,does all the above problems exsist till now?I thought these were sorted out after the feedbacks recieved after 1999s kargil and by 2004,also isnt the newer versions of insas family much more accurate,rugged and ment to solve all the above mensioned problems?I was greatly impressed by guns of the family displaed during resent expos and fell in love with the pictures posted in the military pictures section.Also what about the 1st phase of f-insas which was to introduce new gen assault riffle,carbine etc. that were to ready by 2013?all these questions are creeping into my brain and iam not able to concentrate on my physics lecture.please if any member can help me out.
     
  6. ssingh49

    ssingh49 New Member

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    I thought troops engaged in COIN operations in J&K used Aks and not INSAS?
     
  7. vijaytripoli

    vijaytripoli Regular Member

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    in jk they are also using tavor.
    chau
     
  8. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    The J&K Police using Travor guns.

    [​IMG]

    their is a special antenna on the top of the travor ,
    may be a wireless camera!!!
     
  9. tharikiran

    tharikiran Regular Member

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    lol...it's just his wireless set in his jacket dear .:blum3:
    It's behind the tavor.
     
  10. AkhandBharat

    AkhandBharat Regular Member

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    Who comes up with a stupid doctrine to design guns that injure rather than kill?

    Who was the genius that came up with this idea? :sarcastic:
     
  11. Antimony

    Antimony Regular Member

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    Reply to Akhandbharat

    Er, this is not a "stupid doctrine", but one that does rounds among military planners the world over. If a soldier sees his buddy down but alive, chances are that he would try to get the injured guy to safety.

    The 5.56 round is also supposed to be more accurate than the 7.62 round at distances longer than 300 m. And it is lighter, which means that more rounds can be carried.

    Please note that all of this points would be valid for the regular army engaging say, the PA, which is what it is supposed to do.

    The problem is that it does not work with terrorists; they couldn't care less who they leave behind, dead or alive. Also, engagements in COIN OPS may be at a distance significantly less, making the accuracy advantage of the 5.56 round moot. And they really do not need to carry al the gear that a regular army detachment needs to carry. This may be the reason why the 7.62 round is preferred in COIN engagements.

    Recently there has been interest in the 6.8 SPC round, which supposedly combined the advantages of the 5.56 and the 7.62. In fact, it is one of the calibers the Multi caliber rifle of the F-INSAS program is supposed to support
     
  12. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    It's not that the Insas has been rejected. It's only the suitability in COIN due to it's caliber that's the problem. But the Media in it's bid to sensationalize everything will lead you to believe that the rifle itself is bad. Insas is good and proven after the initial setbacks. Just that it's not a COIN weapon. Well another reason why the Army had problems in Kargil was that the Pakistanis left behind the fallen and also the injured to die. That's why the Army did not find it effective!!!
     
  13. AkhandBharat

    AkhandBharat Regular Member

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    I still don't see why would the military planners the world over would design guns "to injure rather than kill". Of course a soldier would help an injured fellow in his team rather than fight, but that can be achieved with regular rifles which are "designed to kill and can injure too if needed"?
     
  14. tharikiran

    tharikiran Regular Member

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    Then dont you guys think it becomes very difficult for the army to decide what kind of caliber to use for all situations.

    Kargil was a small scale war. The soldiers come in with 5.56 but the enemy behaves like in a COIN operation leaving people behind.Now, the army has to decide, you want the enemy dead or injured.
     
  15. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Who said that the Insas or other similar standard guns only injure? They do kill mate.
     
  16. ssingh49

    ssingh49 New Member

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    the reason for smaller bullet isn't because they want to injure terrorists, it's to make it were the weapon has less recoil, lighter for soldiers to carry extra bullets, and more accurate.

    I think this article is outdated
     
  17. Arun thevar

    Arun thevar Regular Member

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    may be a peace loving war planner.:Laie_22::sarcastic::sarcastic:
     
  18. ajay_ijn

    ajay_ijn Regular Member

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    I can't believe Army is complaining about this. Wasn't it Army which said INSAS must have three round burst because rapid fire is simply waste of bullets.
     
  19. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    its best for war, but not COIN ops , we need every thing in these ops, so the AK-103 was chosen and being license produced in India.
    but my favourite gun AKS-74r , which is used by T-90 & T-72 crew ,
     
  20. bhramos

    bhramos Elite Member Elite Member

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    its best for war, but not COIN ops , we need every thing in these ops, so the AK-103 was chosen and being license produced in India.
    but my favourite gun AKS-74r , which is used by T-90 & T-72 crew ,
     
  21. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    kalantak assult rifle from OFB should be tested by IA for these anti terror operations.

    It would be better if DRDO assign one of the lab for making anti terror product, we are wasting lot of money and persons in anti terror operations.
     

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