Russia objects to T-72/T-90 simulators

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Dark Sorrow, Feb 19, 2010.

  1. Dark Sorrow

    Dark Sorrow Respected Member Senior Member

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    Russia objects to T-72/T-90 simulators: Friend turns 'foe' in tank battle simulator deal​

    The deeply traditional Indian Army, which prides itself on training outdoors with real equipment, could soon start training on simulators like other high-tech armies.

    A hypothetical situation, not too far in the future: after yet another terrorist strike in India, an armoured combat group prepares to raid a terrorist camp near Sialkot, across the Jammu border. Satellite images and photos of the camp taken the previous day by an agent are fed into a simulator, housed in a container next to the tanks. Each tank crew spends time on the simulator, virtually experiencing the next day’s operation and rehearsing their individual tasks.

    Tata Advanced Systems, partnering Canadian giant, CAE; is competing with Indian simulator developer, Zen Technologies, to provide India’s T-72 and T-90 tank regiments with 80 containerised simulators that could be transported anywhere, including to a border launch pad. The MoD will soon announce the winner.

    No plan survives contact with the enemy, it is said. But this one has run into problems with a friend! Russian officials have told Business Standard that the T-72 and T-90 are their tanks and nobody other than the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) could produce a simulator without infringing Intellectual Property Rights (IPR).

    Viktor Komardin, the chief of Russian export controller, Rosoboronexport, pointed out that nobody had consulted Russia. Komardin said, “Is this legal? Is this ethical? Is this proper? If India wants a real simulator, it should be asked for from Russia itself. A quality simulator cannot be created without information from the designer on issues like ballistics and fire control computation.”

    Indian officials are either unaware of the Russian objection, or are choosing to ignore it. Komardin says no Indian official has approached Russia for a tank simulator, even though Russia has one available.

    CAE, however, denies infringing Russian IPR. CAE India President, H J Kamath, told Business Standard, “No proprietary or OEM software or equipment is needed for the simulator. No original equipment has been used, nor do we need any data or source codes from Russia. Everything has been simulated.”

    Zen Technologies is equally emphatic. The company’s President, Kishore Dutt Atluri, says, “We don’t need any information from Russia. The physics of the T-72 and T-90 tanks are well known.”

    Interestingly, CAE is also engaged in developing a full-crew simulator for the Arjun tank, which is made by the Defence R&D Organisation, for which the DRDO has given permission.

    This conflict notwithstanding, simulator training is entering military consciousness. Long the primary method of training commercial pilots — because of the enormous cost of flying empty airliners on training sorties —- the logic of cost-effectiveness is now overwhelming the army’s traditional preference for live training. The cost of running a tank column (11 litres per kilometre of diesel, plus maintenance and depreciation) is exorbitant compared to the cost of running a simulator.

    “Militaries worldwide realise that simulator training is one-tenth the cost of live training on heavy equipment”, says Martin Gagne, CAE’s military simulation head. “Besides, the new buzzword is “mission rehearsal”. Training is not just about flying an aircraft or driving a tank but about preparing for an actual mission.”

    Besides the large order for tank simulators, which would install simulation training centres in every major tank base, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and CAE will commission, by mid-2010, a Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF), in Bangalore. This facility will allow the switching around of various cockpits, including the Bell 412, the military Dhruv, and the Dauphin.

    And Lockheed Martin will provide the six C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft that India has bought along with flight simulators.

    A visit to one of the many simulators on display at Defexpo 2010 in Delhi illustrates that the real challenge in simulator design is in creating a realistic environment. Says Zen’s Atluri, “Recreating a tank or its gun controls is easy. Recreating an entire virtual world around it is the difficult part.”

    That is one reason why companies like Zen, which have provided gaming software to companies like Sony, and have long experience in satisfying demanding young video-game enthusiasts, are now making it big in military simulation.
     
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  3. Dark Sorrow

    Dark Sorrow Respected Member Senior Member

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    now let me hear from the pro-Russian lobby of DFI.
     
  4. hit&run

    hit&run Elite Member Elite Member

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    so what is wrong with Russian objection.
     
  5. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Everything............. If this is illegal, if this is not ethical then why Russians did not objected when Navy bought Mig-29K/KUB simulator from Rheinmetall Defence Electronics Germany. Why now? Doesn't it shows their agony because of India's increasing self-dependence or no deal for upgrading T-72 to Moscow or both.
     
  6. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Well that is just BS. There are tonnes of countries that make things for the T-72 that aren't licensed by Russia. Hell, countries still make T-72s that aren't licensed by Russia. Russia is picking the wrong Tiger here to play with. If they want to go after the real competition they should complain about Raytheon upgrades of India's T-72s that are going to steal $1.5 billion of their business. Now they are just going to piss off India and lets face it, without that Russian arms production would come to a screaching halt.
     
  7. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Even T-72 itself is not a proper Russian product, precisely a Soviet product.
     
  8. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Everything Russia sells is a Soviet product except Yak-130.
     
  9. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    it was a partnership between mig and rheinmetall ..... and like it or not this simulator is IPR infringement .

    The thing is , The raytheon Deal is directly indian Army ...armies tender ,armies requirement and all and it even has the russians in the competition(they win or lose is different issue)but this simulator is just two defence companies producing stuff with the name of their tanks , without any tendering by army , so they can safely retaliate.
    IMHO the producer of the simulator are plain stupid , they should have never named it the "T-90 simulator" .. just call it a multimission simulator or someting and be done with it.
     
  10. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    The thing is, the simulator deal is directly with the IA too. Russia can't bid for it because they don't have portable tank simulators. Since the simulator is not attached to the tank itself, there is no IP infringement or void of warrenty. Russia hasn't made a portable tank simulator so it isn't theirs to have a case.
     
  11. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    All i can do is be me, whoever that is.
    Russians say they make simulators , portable or not i have no idea.
    and the issue is most probably not with the tech but with the name........ you cannot use the name T-90 without paying the russians it would be IPR infingement.
     
  12. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    And where do you find the name of simulator is T-90 or T-72?
     
  13. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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  14. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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  15. notinlove

    notinlove Regular Member

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    Now you understand what i was trying to say :p
     
  16. VayuSena1

    VayuSena1 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    This seems pretty interesting but I do hope that Army and TATA can both come to an agreement diplomatically with the Russians. The last thing we in the air force want is a not-as-expected FGFA slopped into our hands by UAC, someone in Russian top order keeping these issues in their minds.
     
  17. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Simply russians want to involve in this project. btw simulators will be very useful in the training the jawans and yet another reasons to ditch the arjun effort
     
  18. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    Simulators are not covered under IPR rights and hence India has every right to make such machines without consulting the Russians.IPR rights only come into play when anybody copies "in the real world" a part or some other equipment whose patents and registration lie with another nation . If this is not so then Russia should be suing all the computer game makers who have used digitized images of the AK and hinds in their games.

    Naming of the simulators could be a valid issue though
     
  19. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Why does India have to worry about the Russians? Without India, the Russian defence industry would collapse. India is a bigger customer of Russian arms than Russia! They won't do anything because they can't afford to do anything. India hasn't signed the FGFA documents yet nor Gorshkov. All power lies with India...

    Jai Hind
     
  20. peppyguyz

    peppyguyz New Member

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    As india is going indegenous way.. russians may lose business.. so they may object and want india to buy simulators from them.
     
  21. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    India doesn't need Russian simulators. It is time to get off the vodka and start making for India, by India.

    Jai Hind
     

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