Raymond Davis saga in Pakistan

[p2prada]

Davis should learn from Jason Bourne and James Bond. Subtlety. *jokes jokes*

The Pakistanis were stupid. This guy, even if he is a spy, is also an American Diplomat. Instead of publicly trying to arrest, kidnap or assassinate him they could have just caught him at his place of work and deported him. It would have saved Pakistan a lot of trouble and everything would have been quiet.

I am expecting extradition or deportation at the earliest and a major PR campaign by govt for the Pakistani public to desist from protests, like the case with Drone attacks.

 

[Tshering22]

The United States has suspended high-level contacts with Pakistan as ties between the two countries continue to deteriorate over the Raymond Davis affair

Unless and until US stops dealing with Pakistan, stops aid and military weapons supply for free of cost that is being used against us, I don't care a squat for such stupid glam articles. US is continuing the "billions from India, billions to Pakistan" game and is likely to continue unless and until Pakistan finally becomes anti-US and openly swear allegiance to China.

now question arises, how can pakistan survive without american aid , can america secure Afghanistan without any pakistani help, without pakistani supply routes. most important question wht will happen to north wagristan operation will pakistani army will take action against terrorist hideout in NW. but the news is interesting

Yes it can; but only by accepting Russian offer.

 

[cw2005]

Just imagine (putting yourself in the shoes of citizen of a third country; neither India nor Pakistan) how could a country sending mercenary secret agent to another country, killing two persons and yet demanding that country to hand over the killer without a trial. These could only happen in Hollywood movie.

Just imagine again, if USA was replaced by Britain and Pakistan was replaced by India. What would the Indian government do?

 

[SHASH2K2]

Just imagine (putting yourself in the shoes of citizen of a third country; neither India nor Pakistan) how could a country sending mercenary secret agent to another country, killing two persons and yet demanding that country to hand over the killer without a trial. These could only happen in Hollywood movie.

Just imagine again, if USA was replaced by Britain and Pakistan was replaced by India. What would the Indian government do?

There is a dedicated thread for killing of two ISI Agents by an American diplomat. I would request you to go through it . First of all he was being followed by 2 people on bike and when they come too close then only shots weer fired. Given the law and order situation of Pakistan it was a perfectly right reaction. Being a diplomat he has immunity specially in self defence.

 

[JayATL]

^^ its not about what the facts are on the ground. The vocal masses are ignorant... look- was it not a recent movie in Bombay that Shiv Sena rioted and threatened to attack movie theaters? did the fact that it was a make belief movie and not reality make a difference to them? The ignorant class is well and prevalent in Pakistan too.

Here are the political realities ( note: I said political realities and not facts about the shootout) .

A. The US ignorant masses fueled by the tea party and republicans will fillet Obama if he does not come out strong. They will call him a sell out blah blah. The US knows that it has great leverage against Pakistan. If this had happened in say Iran? they would have no leverage and the US right wing ( republicans) would not have a leg to stand on and blame Obama and the democrats for exerting pressure. Many years ago there was a diplomat in the US who , and I vaguely remember the details, got into a car accident and killed someone. At that time the US public was up in arm - fueled by the media pundits- that diplomatic immunity does not mean and should not extend to murder ( intentional or unintentional)

B. Pakistan is in a deep crisis and pickle over this. Because if they don't release him they are in serious trouble , If they do the country will burn for a few days .

SOLUTION: the only solution I can come up with is they release him but put him under house arrest or require him to stay at the consulate grounds and not leave the country- till a report comes out. Take 4months to put out a report and let the " freshness" of the news simmer out from people's minds. They should have done that in the first place because it would save face for both the US and Pakistan. By putting him jail it made the situation worse... In Pakistan even terrorist who kill multiple people are under house arrest.

 

[neo29]

Ground reality in Pakistan is that most people in Pak hate US. Media has got a news to criticize US. Emotions play hard in public and demands to take action against the perpetrators who killed Pak citizens is high. Nobody bothers whether he did in self defence or not. Govt can do nothing but watch.

 

[cw2005]

There is a dedicated thread for killing of two ISI Agents by an American diplomat. I would request you to go through it . First of all he was being followed by 2 people on bike and when they come too close then only shots weer fired. Given the law and order situation of Pakistan it was a perfectly right reaction. Being a diplomat he has immunity specially in self defence.

If some sone from Pakistan visitng USA with a working permit and shot two guys who had been following him in down town NY only to find out later that they are CIA agents. What do you think the American would do when they find out that this killer is actually a "Private" diplomat sponsored by Pakistan? Would they simply hand him over to Pakistan government? Should there be double standard for similar incident happen in Asia and in USA?

 

[Oracle]

If some sone from Pakistan visitng USA with a working permit and shot two guys who had been following him in down town NY only to find out later that they are CIA agents. What do you think the American would do when they find out that this killer is actually a "Private" diplomat sponsored by Pakistan? Would they simply hand him over to Pakistan government? Should there be double standard for similar incident happen in Asia and in USA?

cw2005, in that case - Yes. The US authorities have to follow the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, which became effective as part of the federal law in 1972 & governs diplomatic immunity by granting various degrees of immunity from civil and criminal liability to the members of diplomatic missions. Having said that, even most Pakistani diplomats are in cahoots with terrorist groups operating from Pakistan, and if found, it is highly unlikely that US would handover the Pakistani diplomat. In common sense, when it comes to Pakistanis, all laws of the land ceases, as Pakistan itself is lawless and believes in anarchism.

Just imagine (putting yourself in the shoes of citizen of a third country; neither India nor Pakistan) how could a country sending mercenary secret agent to another country, killing two persons and yet demanding that country to hand over the killer without a trial. These could only happen in Hollywood movie.

You forgot 26/11 so soon?

Just imagine again, if USA was replaced by Britain and Pakistan was replaced by India. What would the Indian government do?

GoI would make sure that UK respects the Vienna convention and get the Indian Diplomat back. One such incident happened just recently. India is not Pakistan, and comparison is meaningless in this case.

 

[Ray]

Imagine how important a strategic asset the man is that the US is ready to suspend relations with Pakistan!!

 

[JayATL]

^^ he is of zero strategic importance- he is high on political ramification 'importance'. he was not James bond about to declare secrets on Ms. pussy galore ( how many saw that movie )

 

[JayATL]

If some sone from Pakistan visitng USA with a working permit and shot two guys who had been following him in down town NY only to find out later that they are CIA agents. What do you think the American would do when they find out that this killer is actually a "Private" diplomat sponsored by Pakistan? Would they simply hand him over to Pakistan government? Should there be double standard for similar incident happen in Asia and in USA?

You are absolutely right. EVERY INDIAN who is being so " by the book " here , would be bitching up a storm if it had happened in India. But the reality on the ground is explained within a previous thread. Read Post # 45

 

[Ray]

The man had a support vehicle behind him that came to rescue him.

The ex Pakistan Foreign Minister on TV yesterday hinted that he is a CIA operative fluent in Urdu and Pashto.

Initially, it was said that the man was a 'Cultural Attaché', later some US quasi diplomat and then the Pakistanis were told that he was on contract with Blackwater/ US security contractor.

 

[JayATL]

^^ and then someone reported he wore his underwear on the outside and called himself superman! , heh ( if you missed my obvious sarcasm- too many false speculations going around). BTW, the driver of the consulate car was a Pakistani. So all this crying about the 3rd guy being killed by a car --- well its was a Pakistani behind the wheels.

Look bottom line is ----if this happened in India, the very same handle names here who are " by the book " now- would be screaming bloody murder!

 

[Ray]

US suspends talks with Pak over envoy

Washington, Feb. 8 (PTI): The US has suspended all high-level talks with Pakistan to put pressure on Islamabad over the release of an American diplomat detained on possible murder charges.

The case of Raymond Allen Davis, who shot dead two Pakistani men he said threatened him from a motorcycle while he was driving in Lahore on January 27....

The state department said Davis, 36, holds a diplomatic passport and is a member of the "technical and administrative staff" at the US embassy in Islamabad.....

Quoting Pakistani officials, the Post said Islamabad was divided over the case. While the foreign ministry was pushing Davis's diplomatic immunity, other parts of the government, which were not named, were using the issue to prove their independence from Washington.

In a new twist, a Pakistani intelligence official said that the two men Davis killed were not armed robbers intent on stealing money, but were intelligence agents assigned to trail Davis.

The official said the agents wanted to frighten Davis because he crossed a "red line" that the official did not explain. The Post said the ISI and the interior ministry's intelligence bureau use motorcycles to track the US officials.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1110209/jsp/foreign/story_13556100.jsp

This is more in manner how real life intelligence operations take place or get botched. John Le Carre's stories of British espionage agents are more authentic than say James Bond.

 

[JayATL]

I actually agree with you for a change... you are right. soon you will have me liking you Mr. ray and that's not kosher for the boards.

again see my post #45 for how I called it i.e how I see the realities on the ground. most people are caught up in facts ( its way beyond that here) , while I typically get caught in the politics or how it works out.

 

[Ray]

^^ and then someone reported he wore his underwear on the outside and called himself superman! , heh ( if you missed my obvious sarcasm- too many false speculations going around). BTW, the driver of the consulate car was a Pakistani. So all this crying about the 3rd guy being killed by a car --- well its was a Pakistani behind the wheels.

Look bottom line is ----if this happened in India, the very same handle names here who are " by the book " now- would be screaming bloody murder!

If you are referring to me, I don't take notice of your sarcasm or otherwise. I merely go by the essence since I am not here to pander to your juvenile callisthenics.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would give more credence to the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan's opinions than a poster on a forum, even if he adopts an air of being a sub janta.

I presume the newspaper reports too are bogus!

Flippancy does not replace facts. Therefore, underwears worn inside out or outside in, makes no difference.

 

[debasree]

dont u know beggers dont demand,they request

 

[Ray]

I actually agree with you for a change... you are right. soon you will have me liking you Mr. ray and that's not kosher for the boards.

again see my post #45 for how I called it i.e how I see the realities on the ground. most people are caught up in facts ( its way beyond that here) , while I typically get caught in the politics or how it works out.

You are right that maybe Obama is looking a weak President and not the usual gung ho way which is appreciated in the US.

You would know the groundswell better in the US.

The Pakistani politics, as per the others on the TV show, all qualified including an ex Indian Foreign Secretary, behind the case is that the US agent was caught in Pakistan Punjab (ruled by Sharif's brother) and this hurried arrest was to put Zardari's govt, the Federal Govt, in a bind.

Under normal circumstances, this should have been resolved between the US Embassy and the Pak Govt without all this publicity.

But the aim was to put the Zardari govt in a tighter spot that it is in right now!

It has become more complicated since the Pakistanis killed are ISI agents and one widow has committed suicide.

Therefore, it is believed that the Pak Army is backing Sharif' brother.

That is why Ms Clinton refused to meet the Pak FM, but spoke to the Pak rep.

Extract from the above quoted link.

According to the Post, secretary of state Hillary Clinton cancelled a meeting last weekend with the Pakistani foreign minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi, at an international security conference in Munich. The US has twice summoned the Pakistani diplomat in Washington, Hussain Haqqani, to the White House to stress on Davis's diplomatic immunity and demand his immediate release.

 

[JayATL]

If you are referring to me, I don't take notice of your sarcasm or otherwise. I merely go by the essence since I am not here to pander to your juvenile callisthenics.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would give more credence to the ex Foreign Minister of Pakistan's opinions than a poster on a forum, even if he adopts an air of being a sub janta.

I presume the newspaper reports too are bogus!

Flippancy does not replace facts. Therefore, underwears worn inside out or outside in, makes no difference.

That same Ex Pakistani minister said that there was no way 26/11 was a Pakistani job. I guess the next time I''l keep in mind- "the Pakistani minister" holds more credence here FOR YOU! vs posters ( or was it only me - as the poster here). Please say it aint Mr.. ray , we are about to have a mutual love fest here for a change

I am not here to pander to your juvenile callisthenics.

did you mean my my juvenile calisthenics?

 

[Ray]

JayATL,

Keep to the topic!

Note: I ignored your goading. You queried whether I missed your sarcasm.

Please take heed.