Putin's long-term vision is to build a rival EU

[roma]

This is a glimpse of the real nature of Russian-Chinese relations, it's a strategic competition not coalition:
China is doing its own expansion towards Russian borders (and the West on the other side). Russia is toasted!

I know many Russians. There is one person who seemed to dislike Putin. Rest all of them, two of them minorities, voted for Putin.
I have Russian friends from Moscow, Tatarstan, Novosibirsk, Omsk, Tuva. They all love and admire Putin.
After the Yeltsin years, Russians absolutely trust the future of their country in Putin's hands.
All the anti-Russia reports seem to come out of the west, and have little to do with reality.

This is not a negation of anything you said - just an offer to look at it from a different point of view:-
Firstly is it true that all those Russians and their minorities are people you met in the USA ?
and there are also a lot of Russians not only here in Iberia but also elsewhere in Western Europe

What does that mean ? - It means they are admiring Putin from a safe distance
So while they love and admire him -. they have also voted with their feet against him - and the number who left are huge

It therefore leaves me to agree with the first poster quoted above - well, a small minority number of people
are saluting him with a toast, but for the majority - Putin's System and therefore Russia under him, is toast !

 

[pmaitra]

China is doing its own expansion towards Russian borders (and the West on the other side). Russia is toasted!

You wish.

Read this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...military-become-even-deadlier.html#post933408

I am waiting to see who gets toasted in the next 10 years.

 

[pmaitra]

This is not a negation of anything you said - just an offer to look at it from a different point of view:-
Firstly is it true that all those Russians and their minorities are people you met in the USA ?
and there are also a lot of Russians not only here in Iberia but also elsewhere in Western Europe

What does that mean ? - It means they are admiring Putin from a safe distance
So while they love and admire him -. they have also voted with their feet against him - and the number who left are huge

It therefore leaves me to agree with the first poster quoted above - well, a small minority number of people
are saluting him with a toast, but for the majority - Putin's System and therefore Russia under him, is toast !

The people I met in the US, do provide a sample of the people of Russia. It is a small sample, but if that does not satisfy you, just look at Putin's approval rating. That alone puts all the western "democracies" to shame.

Yes, they live in the US, and that proves what? I also know that majority of Indians I know in the US support Modi. Surely, going by your logic, they have "voted with their feet" (they have not even voted), so their opinion does not represent the opinion of Indians.

Please do tell me, how did you conclude that a small minority of people are saluting Putin? Of course, if you ask the wealthy Russian oligarchs, who stole money from Russia's state owned enterprises, and ran away to the west and took asylum, certainly, they will criticize Putin, because Putin sought these corrupt thieves that plunged Russia into economic chaos after the collapse of the USSR. Wealthy kleptocratic oligarchs from Russia, who live in the west, and their scions, are not the correct persons to understand what Russians think.

Remember one thing: The west hates Putin, because Putin put an end to the corruption in Russia that mushroomed during Yeltsin's times. Those corrupt thieves were stealing Russia's public wealth and moving them to London and New York. That is why, these corrupt kleptocrats are dearer to the west, than Putin, the person who actually put an end to this corruption.

 

[roma]

Let me fix these facts for you.

EU = $17.656 trillion
US = $17.295 trillion
Japan = $4.901 trillion
Canada = 1.825 trillion
Australia = $1.560 trillion

So, in the Economic warfare

NATO (+allies) = $43.183 trillion

VS

Russia = $2.096 trillion

great stats - thanks !

Both of you are stuck up with GDP, as if that is the end of the world when it comes to national prosperity. This tells me how successful western media has been in brainwashing its people.

It is rather interesting to note that @juoni, whom I had asked several questions, chose to avoid answering them.

All I can say is, good luck to all the EU people, as they hang on their GDP, while their nations get deeper into debt, and ultimately, into delinquency.

both of you are right
the first post is right about now and the near future
the second is right about the long term - after 20 years - approx 2035 and thereabouts

and that's according to today's' stats - which may change and can change

my gut feel about Russia and sco (without India ) over-taking Nato alliance combined economies ?
some of you guys have a really great sense of humour

 

[pmaitra]

great stats - thanks !



both of you are right
the first post is right about now and the near future
the second is right about the long term - after 20 years - approx 2035 and thereabouts

and that's according to today's' stats - which may change and can change

my gut feel about Russia and sco (without India ) over-taking Nato alliance combined economies ?

First of all, NATO is not an economic alliance. It is a military alliance against the Warsaw Pact, which does not exist anymore; however, since for NATO, Warsaw Pact, USSR, and the Russian Federation are the same thing, it continues to exist. Perhaps there are other reasons as well.

Secondly, Russia, PRC, and other SCO members, as one economic bloc SCO, without India, is very likely to overtake the EU (I will use this, instead of NATO). I foresee a rise of right-wing governments in few countries of Europe (Germany, Italy, Belgium), and civil war in some others places (Spain, Greece), and a weakening of the EU, if not an outright collapse.

 

[pmaitra]

@roma, I am not sure you are aware of the context. My discussion was w.r.t. this comment: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/61895-civil-war-ukraine-135.html#post929144

 

[roma]

Let me fix these facts for you.

EU = $17.656 trillion
US = $17.295 trillion
Japan = $4.901 trillion
Canada = 1.825 trillion
Australia = $1.560 trillion

So, in the Economic warfare

NATO (+allies) = $43.183 trillion

VS

Russia = $2.096 trillion

The people I met in the US, do provide a sample of the people of Russia. It is a small sample, but if that does not satisfy you, just look at Putin's approval rating. That alone puts all the western "democracies" to shame.

Yes, they live in the US, and that proves what? I also know that majority of Indians I know in the US support Modi. Surely, going by your logic, they have "voted with their feet" (they have not even voted), so their opinion does not represent the opinion of Indians.

Please do tell me, how did you conclude that a small minority of people are saluting Putin? Of course, if you ask the wealthy Russian oligarchs, who stole money from Russia's state owned enterprises, and ran away to the west and took asylum, certainly, they will criticize Putin, because Putin sought these corrupt thieves that plunged Russia into economic chaos after the collapse of the USSR. Wealthy kleptocratic oligarchs from Russia, who live in the west, and their scions, are not the correct persons to understand what Russians think.

Remember one thing: The west hates Putin, because Putin put an end to the corruption in Russia that mushroomed during Yeltsin's times. Those corrupt thieves were stealing Russia's public wealth and moving them to London and New York. That is why, these corrupt kleptocrats are dearer to the west, than Putin, the person who actually put an end to this corruption.

all i can say is :-
two simple points, please ;- (1) Putin's "approval rating " - which is the source , - Russian government ? or ? .
(2) the NRI's who now vote FOR Modi had moved EARLIER ( yes ?) ...so they voted with their feet AGAINST someone else

Never mind Yeltsin - he was drunk most of the time ...he's not the focus of todays Russia and sco is he ?
Believe me even during the more than 10 years that Putin has been in charge - huge numbers have moved out DURING his reign

Again as for the NRI's whom you say didnt vote - youre absolutely right - they didnt bother to, it wassnt worth their time - they just up and ran, ... and it wasn't while Modi was there - pardon the repetition, it was before his chance came.

Anyway great debate - im not insisting - you might be right, especially in the long run , in 20yrs time

- the debate was good. .

 

[pmaitra]

all i can say is :-
two simple points, please ;- (1) Putin's "approval rating " - which is the source , - Russian government ? or ? .
(2) the NRI's who now vote FOR Modi had moved EARLIER ( yes ?) ...so they voted with their feet AGAINST someone else

Never mind Yeltsin - he was drunk most of the time ...he's not the focus of todays Russia and sco is he ?
Believe me even during the more than 10 years that Putin has been in charge - huge numbers have moved out DURING his reign

Again as for the NRI's whom you say didnt vote - youre absolutely right - they didnt bother to, it wassnt worth their time - they just up and ran, ... and it wasn't while Modi was there - pardon the repetition, it was before his chance came.

Anyway great debate - im not insisting - you might be right - the debate was good. .

Regarding source, I have already posted it. No worries about the repetition. You should read more. Many of your questions are already answered.

 

[pmaitra]

@roma, there is a video posted somewhere in DFI, that explains how Boris Berezovsky destroyed the AvtoVAZ factory in Togliatti, that used to produce the Italian Fiat-124 car, re-christened the LADA, carried out money laundering at a massive scale, shut down production even when there was a lot of demand for that car, made thousands of workers jobless, and destroyed families. He ran away from Russia when he was about to face prosecution for his corruption, and the UK embraced him with open arms.

LADA (USSR/Russia)

We also used to make this car in India. It was called the PAL 118NE.

PAL 118NE (India)

 

[asianobserve]

You wish.

Read this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...military-become-even-deadlier.html#post933408

I am waiting to see who gets toasted in the next 10 years.

Russia is looking for a better bargaining position against the West by trying to put on a show of increased Chinese cooperation. If it suits Russia (it gets what it wants from the West) then it will quietly scale back on its Chinese-arming bluster. All Russians and Putin himself is fully aware that Chinese is much much unreliable partner than the West (China is very opportunistic, hungry for more riches and power and has no qualms on how to get it including taking advantage of Russia's current sorry plight by trying to get energy at the lowest price, much lower than what the West is paying for the same energy). Russia is just polishing a sword in China that will be used against it in the future.

MOst Russian policy makers and oligarchs, including Putin, believes that the West is the better partner for Russia (they like it there). But at present, with intensifying rift wit the West over Ukraine, Russia is trying to put a brave face and raising the Chinese card as bargaining chip. Ultimately, it is still closer Western that Russia yearns for.

 

[pmaitra]

Russia is looking for a better bargaining position against the West by trying to put on a show of increased Chinese cooperation.

Of course, an alternative energy consmer gives more leverage to Russia.

If it suits Russia (it gets what it wants from the West) then it will quietly scale back on its Chinese-arming bluster.

Arming? Yes. Selling energy? No.

All Russians and Putin himself is fully aware that Chinese is much much unreliable partner than the West

No, the west is an unreliable partner. That is why the west, mainly the EU, supported radical gangs in Ukraine, that destroyed pipeline (Bratsvo pipeline), which is supposed to transport gas to EU. The EU, it appears, is led by people who would saw off the very branch they are sitting on.

(China is very opportunistic, hungry for more riches and power and has no qualms on how to get it including taking advantage of Russia's current sorry plight by trying to get energy at the lowest price, much lower than what the West is paying for the same energy).

True. Which country is not opportunistic?

Russia is just polishing a sword in China that will be used against it in the future.

Russia has no choice, as it is currently facing a sword from the west. It can worry about the sword from the east, when that threat becomes current. Today, it is only a future possibility, not a reality.

MOst Russian policy makers and oligarchs, including Putin, believes that the West is the better partner for Russia (they like it there).

Russian policy makers are from all backgrounds. They are not allowed to own assets abroad. Even if they are rich, they have to keep the money in Russia, and not launder and whisk it away to London or New York. If they do, they will lose their jobs and be disqualified from holding parliamentary office.

Putin, and his wealthy chums, for all their flaws, put food on the tables of the starving Russians, gave a life to the pensioners, and brought about a social stability that was so lacking under Yeltsin. No wonder 86% Russians support him.

But at present, with intensifying rift wit the West over Ukraine, Russia is trying to put a brave face and raising the Chinese card as bargaining chip.

Russia is not intensifying anything. Russia is simply a target of the west intensifying its support for a Nazi-Fascist coup d'état that is hostile to Russia, and Russia is doing what any country would do. Sure, Russia is simply crossing the red lines drawn by Obama and calling his bluff, and bluster.

Ultimately, it is still closer Western that Russia yearns for.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[roma]

@roma, there is a video posted somewhere in DFI, that explains how Boris Berezovsky destroyed the AvtoVAZ factory in Togliatti, that used to produce the Italian Fiat-124 car, re-christened the LADA, carried out money laundering at a massive scale, shut down production even when there was a lot of demand for that car, put thousands of workers jobless, and destroyed families. He ran away from Russia when he was about to face prosecution for his corruption, and the UK embraced him with open arms.

LADA (USSR/Russia)

We also used to make this car in India. It was called the PAL 118NE.

PAL 118NE (India)

Sir , thanks for your posts above and your point of view is interesting , no sarcasm and no fears either ! :thumb:
Regarding the Togliatti or was it also called Zhiguli ? im aware they had Italian help to set up the production lines
But without wanting to re-ignite our debate which im quite prepared that basically you could be right - in the long run
What youre saying is that so and so person destroyed Russian industry and Putin is putting it back together ?

In fact i think that Russian technology far exceeds the example in your photos - i never implied the Russians are "behind"
My main contention is that Russia plus China ( the two major components of SCO ) will never equal enlarged EU plus
USA and Canada Australia combined ´´

That's all im saying - not that Russia or china are backward - never .
Just that one cant expect those two to equal the other larger grouping

 

[roma]

@roma, I am not sure you are aware of the context. My discussion was w.r.t. this comment: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/61895-civil-war-ukraine-135.html#post929144

ah ....! ok ...i wasnt aware of that !

 

[pmaitra]

Sir , thanks for your posts above and your point of view is interesting , no sarcasm and no fears either ! :thumb:
Regarding the Togliatti or was it also called Zhiguli ? im aware they had Italian help to set up the production lines
But without wanting to re-ignite our debate which im quite prepared that basically you could be right - in the long run
What youre saying is that so and so person destroyed Russian industry and Putin is putting it back together ?

In fact i think that Russian technology far exceeds the example in your photos - i never implied the Russians are "behind"
My main contention is that Russia plus China ( the two major components of SCO ) will never equal enlarged EU plus
USA and Canada Australia combined ´´

That's all im saying - not that Russia or china are backward - never .
Just that one cant expect those two to equal the other larger grouping

Sorry to confuse you.

The Italians have always had a reputation for making good cars.

The LADA was a very reliable car, and it always had a demand. Yes, it was called Zhiguli.

Regarding industries, yes, all Russian factories were state owned, as they were set up by the Soviet Union, which was a socialist system. Private factories did not exist. So, those factories were public property.

When Yeltsin became the President, the western NGOs, and their chums in Russia, had a field day, taking control of these factories/companies at throwaway prices, which came via various types of paper documents and coupons. These people, then re-sold these factories/companies or their stakes, to foreign companies, this giving control of Russia's massive industrial might, to the western companies.

Another example is Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He was an oil/gas tycoon, and a major financial criminal. Just like Berezovsky, he was, and still is, a darling of the west.

Rule of thumb: Anyone who steals money in Russia, and brings it to the west, is a good guy in the eyes of the west.

The west continues to publish "articles" about Putin's "corruption," with zero evidence, to whitewash their own complicity in supporting corrupt kleptocrats in post Soviet Russia. Yes, Putin is autocratic, but corrupt he is not. I am not aware of any leader in Russia, who truly cares for his country, as much as Putin does.

Now, coming to Canada, Australia, etc., no, I don't think SCO will be able to beat them in the near future. Canada and Australia are resource rich countries. They will always be wealthy, regardless of how many paper currencies they print.

The USA is also resource rich, but its biggest weakness is its democracy. People vote in governments that promise dole-outs, which encourages laziness, and this forces the government to import skilled labour from abroad, and it is a downward spiral that will only cause havoc.

 

[Meriv90]

First of all, NATO is not an economic alliance. It is a military alliance against the Warsaw Pact, which does not exist anymore; however, since for NATO, Warsaw Pact, USSR, and the Russian Federation are the same thing, it continues to exist. Perhaps there are other reasons as well.

Secondly, Russia, PRC, and other SCO members, as one economic bloc SCO, without India, is very likely to overtake the EU (I will use this, instead of NATO). I foresee a rise of right-wing governments in few countries of Europe (Germany, Italy, Belgium), and civil war in some others places (Spain, Greece), and a weakening of the EU, if not an outright collapse.

I had a really bad day, this is an eurocentrist post with some rage discharging in it, sorry.

Do you mean far right wing or just normal conservative parties? Civil war in Greece and Spain on what basis? Which forces and parties? I don't know if you visited that countries(all the ones you mentioned) , if you know their culture by direct experience. If you realize how much bloodshed they had in the past. Yes economically they can surpass us, and probably will, but there is something that they won't surpass: our "social capital" what we have learnt trought fascism and dictatorships, what we learnt from the bloodsheds of the world wars. The pain and the true value of peace something that the US haven't still experience.
I'm mainly speaking of the europe I know, that is west EU not east Europe.
We have paid a hard price but we have learnt our lessons, I don't fear economic surpass from other regions because economy is based on social society and what lessons have the rest of the world learnt?
Russian even after all the their sacrifices they did in ww2 still kill for racial issues (110 persons in 2008, under Putin goverment)
Chinese doesn't know the value of democracy, top students don't or don't want to know about Tiennamen (lets not even speak about Tibet&Co)
In India there are still conflicts on religion basis.
Brasil inequality pushing for "social cleansing"
Etc.. Etc..

we have also learnt from the financial crisis and we are cleaning our financial sector, we didn't do as the rest that just used QE, in september the BCE will do the second stress test and this time it will be on Hard to value positions. What has the rest of the world done to cleanse/heal (even if the correct metaphor would be "pruning") its financial market?
We are heavy investing in renewables, what will do China/US when their coal will end or the CO2 tax weight will increase?

 

[pmaitra]

I had a really bad day, this is an eurocentrist post with some rage discharging in it, sorry.

I see no rage at all. Your comment is perfectly reasonable.

Do you mean far right wing or just normal conservative parties? Civil war in Greece and Spain on what basis? Which forces and parties?

I am simply predicting based on the results of the recent EU elections. They are not far right as of now, but simply conservative; however, with economic turmoil brewing, things could get worse. If you see history, economic hardships over a prolonged period of time, breeds all kinds of radicalism. Looks at post WWI Germany, or look at Ukraine today.

Greece will see tensions, along with FYROM Macedonia, and Albania. Turkey could get involved on Cyprus. It could start from Greece, and its financial woes, and transform into something else.

In Spain, it could be the Basque problem resurfacing.

In Belgium, it would be Belgians vs Muslims.

I don't know if you visited that countries(all the ones you mentioned) , if you know their culture by direct experience. If you realize how much bloodshed they had in the past.

No, I did not.

Yes economically they can surpass us, and probably will, but there is something that they won't surpass: our "social capital" what we have learnt trought fascism and dictatorships, what we learnt from the bloodsheds of the world wars.

I hope there is no bloodshed, but history cannot be written without bloodshed. It is a law of nature, that turmoil has to come after period of peace.

The pain and the true value of peace something that the US haven't still experience.
I'm mainly speaking of the europe I know, that is west EU not east Europe.

Agreed.

We have paid a hard price but we have learnt our lessons, I don't fear economic surpass from other regions because economy is based on social society and what lessons have the rest of the world learnt?

We humans never learn from history. If we did, there would be no war. I am not convinced all Europeans, or at least the leaders, actually have learnt anything form WWII. If they did, they wouldn't covertly support the Svoboda or Right Sector in Ukraine, who openly display Swastika and other Nazi symbols. Again, this is just me, who is not convinced. We should leave this as a disagreement.

Russian even after all the their sacrifices they did in ww2 still kill for racial issues (110 persons in 2008, under Putin goverment)

I do not deny that.

Chinese doesn't know the value of democracy, top students don't or don't want to know about Tiennamen (lets not even speak about Tibet&Co)

Tibet, I agree. Tienanmen, is far more complicated. PRC has been doing the right things, and it is evident from the fact that it is seeing overwhelming development and improvement of quality of life. India, with a democracy, is lagging behind, but has all the praise from the west, which does not feed a hungry stomach.

In India there are still conflicts on religion basis.

There is.

Brasil inequality pushing for "social cleansing"
Etc.. Etc..

I have limited knowledge about Brazil.

we have also learnt from the financial crisis and we are cleaning our financial sector, we didn't do as the rest that just used QE, in september the BCE will do the second stress test and this time it will be on Hard to value positions. What has the rest of the world done to cleanse/heal (even if the correct metaphor would be "pruning") its financial market?

There are various terms (Fractional Reserve Banking, Modern Money Mechanics, Quantitative Easing) that used to confuse me. To put it simply, they are printing pieces of paper that are backed by less than what is promised. This is one subject, you and I will probably not agree on.

We are heavy investing in renewables, what will do China/US when their coal will end or the CO2 tax weight will increase?

CO[SUB]2[/SUB] taxes are used to destroy industry in Europe, so that manufacturing is moved to cheaper Asian countries. It benefits India and PRC, benefits the wealthy MNCs, but not the ordinary Europeans.

 

[roma]

Sorry to confuse you.
The Italians have always had a reputation for making good cars.
The LADA was a very reliable car, and it always had a demand. Yes, it was called Zhiguli.
Regarding industries, yes, all Russian factories were state owned, as they were set up by the Soviet Union, which was a socialist system. Private factories did not exist. So, those factories were public property.
When Yeltsin became the President, the western NGOs, and their chums in Russia, had a field day, taking control of these factories/companies at throwaway prices, which came via various types of paper documents and coupons. These people, then re-sold these factories/companies or their stakes, to foreign companies, this giving control of Russia's massive industrial might, to the western companies.
Another example is Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He was an oil/gas tycoon, and a major financial criminal. Just like Berezovsky, he was, and still is, a darling of the west.
Rule of thumb: Anyone who steals money in Russia, and brings it to the west, is a good guy in the eyes of the west.
The west continues to publish "articles" about Putin's "corruption," with zero evidence, to whitewash their own complicity in supporting corrupt kleptocrats in post Soviet Russia. Yes, Putin is autocratic, but corrupt he is not. I am not aware of any leader in Russia, who truly cares for his country, as much as Putin does.
Now, coming to Canada, Australia, etc., no, I don't think SCO will be able to beat them in the near future. Canada and Australia are resource rich countries. They will always be wealthy, regardless of how many paper currencies they print.
The USA is also resource rich, but its biggest weakness is its democracy. People vote in governments that promise dole-outs, which encourages laziness, and this forces the government to import skilled labour from abroad, and it is a downward spiral that will only cause havoc.

Great post , liked it in more than one way - makes me wonder what profession yours is (there's respect there ! )
Would be nice to know ( heheheheh )
This is the time for me to say i ve learned a lot from dfi - its a valuable forum and in particular Ive also learned
from your post quoted...... i do agree with the particular points you wrote although you'll allow me to say i still
cant accept that sco will beat extended EU plus USA - basically the NATO countries combined economies
( bearing in mind NATO is military ) but i think you know what i mean - just using NATO as a convenient term to
not have to name each of them separately.

i tend to agree with @Meriv90 and not because i live in Europe but because of what i do come across in the system here.- yes EU is facing challenges, serious ones but i still feel it is at a higher level and the sco when it gets to our level of economy is likely to face the very same challenges _ so in that sense we're ahead .

just a point of view - not insisting to be right always.

 

[pmaitra]

Great post , liked it in more than one way - makes me wonder what profession yours is (there's respect there ! )
Would be nice to know ( heheheheh )
This is the time for me to say i ve learned a lot from dfi - its a valuable forum and in particular Ive also learned
from your post quoted...... i do agree with the particular points you wrote although you'll allow me to say i still
cant accept that sco will beat extended EU plus USA - basically the NATO countries combined economies
( bearing in mind NATO is military ) but i think you know what i mean - just using NATO as a convenient term to
not have to name each of them separately.

i tend to agree with @Meriv90 and not because i live in Europe but because of what i do come across in the system here.- yes EU is facing challenges, serious ones but i still feel it is at a higher level and the sco when it gets to our level of economy is likely to face the very same challenges _ so in that sense we're ahead .

just a point of view - not insisting to be right always.

Can you please tell me who said that SCO will beat US plus EU?

I was comparing EU with SCO, not EU plus US with SCO. I was also not, and am not willing to, compare NATO with SCO, because NATO is a military bloc while SCO is an economic bloc, and also because, at least one NATO country is not willing to impose sanctions on Russia, but wants to cooperate with Russia.

I think I have made it clear already, but I am clarifying again.

 

[roma]

Can you please tell me who said that SCO will beat US plus EU?
I was comparing EU with SCO, not EU plus US with SCO. I was also not, and am not willing to, compare NATO with SCO, because NATO is a military bloc while SCO is an economic bloc, and also because, at least one NATO country is not willing to impose sanctions on Russia, but wants to cooperate with Russia. I think I have made it clear already, but I am clarifying again.

That was your full post

Now allow me to answer your first question.
Because, starting at that point, things went into the wrong direct giong and like a stream it developed into a river
and then a flood of posts but going off into the wrong direction

Can you please tell me who said that SCO will beat US plus EU?

well ........ there it is :-

Let me fix these facts for you.
EU = $17.656 trillion
US = $17.295 trillion
Japan = $4.901 trillion
Canada = 1.825 trillion
Australia = $1.560 trillion
So, in the Economic warfare

NATO (+allies) = $43.183 trillion VS Russia = $2.096 trillion

you are right i was side-tracked on to another argument and not
what this thread is about - it's my mistake , no doubt about it ...and as
such neither am i blaming member HMS Astute either, it's purely my error .

 

[pmaitra]

That was your full post

Now allow me to answer your first question.
Because, starting at that point, things went into the wrong direct giong and like a stream it developed into a river
and then a flood of posts but going off into the wrong direction



well ........ there it is :-



you are right i was side-tracked on to another argument and not
what this thread is about - it's my mistake , no doubt about it .

Ok, I see. It was not me. It was someone else.

Regarding US, and this is the second time I am saying this, it is a resource rich country, but as long as it keeps electing governments that promise dole and benefits, it will continue to get into economic troubles.