Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by plugwater, Jul 11, 2010.
More like a successor
Indian submarine contest down to four
The contest to supply the Indian Navy with its next batch of submarines has already lost two contenders, even before the competition has begun.
The navy’s Request For Information (RFI) had been issued to six manufacturers: Spain’s Navantia, the French Naval Group (formerly DCNS), Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (TKMS), Sweden’s Saab Kockums, Russia’s Rubin and the Japanese consortium of Mitsubishi/Kawasaki.
As reported by StratPost, the deadline for responses to the RFI was extended to Monday, October 16.
It has emerged that two of the recipients of the RFI have not submitted responses. Mitsubishi/Kawasaki of Japan and Navantia of Spain have failed to submit the requested information for their Soryu and S-80 submarines to the Indian Navy.
The absence of a Japanese response is perhaps not entirely surprising, considering their institutional reluctance to commit to a process in a system with which they are unfamiliar, their wait for the culmination of a long-pending Indian order for ShinMaywa US-2i amphibious aircraft and their recent experience competing for an Australian order for submarines.
Navantia’s lack of participation is more unexpected, considering the S-80 is modeled on the French Scorpene, which are coming into service in the Indian Navy. The Spanish company has also been involved in a contest to supply LHD vessels to the Indian Navy.
At any rate, the absence of Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) who are not fully committed to the process will probably assist the navy in running a serious contest to build the Project 75(India) line of submarines, especially considering this project has to meet the exacting requirements of strategic partnerships under Chapter 07 of the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP).
The Naval Group is offering the Scorpene; TKMS is offering the Type 214; Saab Kockums is offering the A26 and Rubin is offering the Amur submarine. The order is estimated to be worth around USD 10 billion.
Should be a toss up between Japanese and German firms for this one. Germans gave us good ToT with the HDW deal. Japanese are keen to bag this one after the surprising and the fixed loss to DCNS in Australia. I think Soryu would be good for us, probably the most advanced submarine of this class out there.
We need to negotiate hard and extract maximum we can get out of this.
The post above you states that Japan and Spain have dropped out of the deal. So it's down to France, Germany, Russia and Sweden.
Japan - They are less interested in going by regular RFIs and RFPs for their Soryus. Would prefer a G2G approach and 'assemble in India' for higher numbers.
Spain - Like an exotic item in a glass shop's shelf that looks much wanted, it's better the way it is for India now.
France - Easy Peesy oh so Breezy .. They are ready for it. They just have to do some add-ons and be answerable to what all can be changed in the compromised items (the Australian Hack) of the submarines. Good that DCNS did a Branding change.
Germany - Thyssenkrup has been chasing us a time while. They even probably had a hand in the DCNS hack. A good deal if not Soryus.
Russia - A strategic decision is not in the hindsight to get their products to keep an old friend close. They will have to work out the chinks in our troubles with them. It's a two-way process, Russia.
Sweden - Ah, damn. Probably we can do a competitive evaluation and an RFP. So many (diplomatic) friends , so many (strategic) decisions to make.
How capable is the SORYU in comparision to others?
Will a G2G deal woth Japan more beneficial in long term?
What is special about Soryu is its use of Li-Ion batteries. What is dangerous about it is that they are just commercial grade when they need to be solid state so they don't catch fire.
Only Navy can answer that question.
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Currently none of the subs insoryu class has LIB.
Indeed, the only one is under construction and will not see IOC until 2020. When it goes to trials it will be interesting to see how many fires it can start.
The Japanese categorically stated that the reason for transition to LIB instead of the Stirling AIP was two-fold:
- Better sustained performance
- Improved safety of the LIB option over the Stirling
Now if they were planning to use commercial grade batteries (I laugh at this statement) then you must think how bad Stirling AIP must be that fire-prone LIB is still considered "safer"
The french proposal for Australian bid is without AIP. So AIP or stirling or... is not the only answer for an oceanic sub.
Japan Launches 10th Advanced High-Tech Attack Sub
The new diesel-electric attack submarine is expected to be commissioned into the Maritime Self-Defense Force in 2019.
Japanese shipbuilder Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) launched the 10th Soryu-class diesel-electric attack submarine (SSK) in Kobe on November 6, according to a KHI press release. The new SSK was laid down in January 2015 and is expected to enter service with the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) in 2019.
The new sub, which has been named Shuriyu, is the fifth Soryu-class boat to be built by KHI and the 28th submarine overall constructed by the shipbuilder after the end of World War II. The remaining submarines of the Soryu-class were built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI), which has assembled 26 subs since the end of the war.
The 4,200-ton (submerged) Soryu-class boats are the JMSDF’s first SSKs to be fitted with air-independent propulsions (AIP) systems, enabling the submarines to stay underwater for up to two weeks. Japan plans to build a total of 12 Soryu-class SSKs. In 2015, Japan’s Ministry of Defense (MoD) announced that it intends to equip the last two boats of the class with lithium-ion batteries. (According to some reports, the other boats of the class will be retrofitted with the batteries as well.)
Soryu-class SSKs are powered by two Kawasaki 12V 25/25 SB-type diesel engines and four Kawasaki Kockums V4-275R Stirling AIP engines for silent running. The boats have an estimated range of 6,100 nautical miles (11,297 kilometers) with a maximum surface speed of 13 knots and a subsurface travelling speed of 20 knots. The maximum diving depth of the sub is around 650 meters.
The Soryu-class is fitted with six HU-606 533 mm torpedo tubes that can accommodate Type 89 heavyweight homing torpedoes and UGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missiles. Next to bow-and-flank-mounted Hughes/Oki ZQQ-7 sonar arrays, the sub is also equipped with a towed array sonar capable of detecting ships over 70 kilometers away.
The Soryu-class’ hull is made of high tensile steel covered with anechoic coating to reduce both the SSK’s sonar signature and sounds emanating from inside the boat. As I explained last year, Soryu-class subs boast increased maneuverability:
The Soryu-class boats’ hydrodynamic design is based on the older Oyashio-class diesel-electric attack submarines currently in service with the JMSDF. It is (…) fitted with a computer-controlled, Swedish-designed X rudder to increase the submarine’s maneuverability when operating in shallow waters close to the seabed.
The boats reportedly especially excel in executing small turns over topographically complicated sea floors, which is not only a testimony to Japanese engineers’ technology savvy but also to the high level of training of JMSDF submariners. Given the Soryu-class’s high degree of automation, the crew is also smaller than on previous JMSDF subs and consists of nine officers and 56 sailors.
Japs should go nuke if they don't want to be the salami between the USA and chinland.
They have the tech and the industry to produce a viable and powerful military machinery which ain't just a mere US puppet.
The real reason why they don't... massive debt and start up costs of MIC infrastructure. It is not cheap to play this game.
Not happening. Indian navy won’t go for soryu class. It’s either French, German or Russian kilo.
Japan submarines patrol area which is close to the shore line and do not go very far from their bases. They do not require a nuclear submarine
He is asking for nuke bombs.
The public is against the nukes, just look when Abe got rid of article 9, the public backlash was huge. For a nuke program it will be massive
Well Japan must ditch it's pacifist ideology if it seriously wants to confront china.
Because apart from USA only Japan can challenge china head-on.
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