Pakistan erased an entire International New York Times cover story

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
A lot of speculation without solid proof by hypocrite and biased US media again. Why should we expose our population to this zionist propaganda if its all about speculation?

Let them post detailed covert adventures by CIA all over the world for a change. Let them analyse Raymond Davis and how Pakistani people and government were misled. Let them explain the US taxpayer why the CIA let Bin Laden escape to Pakistan when they had him first and needed $600 billion to fight a war in Afghanistan.

Well done Islamabad, no need to accept zionist propaganda!
Here I disagree with you.

Let whatever is printed in a foreign newspaper be there.

The people are intelligent enough to gauge for themselves and sift the wheat from the chaff.

As soon as there is censorship, people start believing that there must have been something worth in it, wherein the authorities blanked it out.

This will only encourage people to seek it on the internet.

Today, nothing can be hidden, but if an attempt is made, it arouse curiosity and belief that there could be something true, and so they will go to the internet to read it and also see the comments thereof!

More damage than letting the news out and letting people judge. Then there are Pakistani newspapers who could lambast the story under Opinions or Editorials.

I feel sorry for Pakistan Govt that they do not use their brains to handle adverse international comments!
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
If you think that Pak is going to break, it is not correct. The reason why Bangladesh was formed was because it was 3000 KM away from Pakistan and was separated by an adversary. Punjabi dominance is too hard to be broken and once Islamic symbols are invoked, entire Pakistan becomes one.
Who am I to think ??

NWFP, FATA and Baluchistan is as good as separated....

Pakistan is as good as broken......
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
Who am I to think ??

NWFP, FATA and Baluchistan is as good as separated....

Pakistan is as good as broken......

I was hearing same in 2000s and I still see them as part of Pakistan. Their fights are internal but for Indians all have common hatred.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neo

thethinker

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
2,808
Likes
6,489
Country flag
You are entitled to share your opinion and so do I.

You like bashing and maligning my country and army so be it.

I speak for millions when I say I support my army and ISI and that is all I care about.
You'd be more credible if you were actually living in Pak.

There is a massive divergence of views among folks who actually live there and how they see the real state of affairs versus those who are living somewhere abroad and are jingoists to the core.

Anything from Pak media not suiting your views is deemed as a "joke", or a conspiracy theory.

Frankly, local Pakistani reporters have a balanced and actually reasonable view as well as opinion of what is going on in that country unlike you who preach mightiness of Pak while tucked away in a foreign land come hell or high water.
 

Bhadra

Professional
Joined
Jul 11, 2011
Messages
11,991
Likes
23,758
Country flag
I was hearing same in 2000s and I still see them as part of Pakistan. Their fights are internal but for Indians all have common hatred.
Historical processes take long time.....

It took 23 years for Bangladesh to come into existence...
 

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
Historical processes take long time.....

It took 23 years for Bangladesh to come into existence...
Apples and oranges. You are forgetting distance, Indian role, Pakistani contempt for Bengali race and lack of common language. All Pakistanis have common language in form of Urdu( yes from Baloch to punjabi to pashtuns) , have a national identity in form of Islam and have a reasonable geography.
India, as it exists now, is more artificial than Pakistan.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neo

thethinker

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
2,808
Likes
6,489
Country flag
Who is PPP to judge, lol :lol:
Same PPP who has a CM in Sindh heading all the ministeries eventhough 10 months have passed since elections?
Or same PPP which bailed out the loss making domestic airline owned by Zardari's sister?
The same PPP which is snatching jobs from everyone in Karachi to give them to Sindhis?
Or same PPP that is fuelling communal riots between different communities in Karachi?
Same PPP which spent 500 million rupees on Billo's image building festival while hundreds were dying in Tharparker?

What a joke!
Isn't PPP Pakistani? And as per you, doesn't everyone in Pakistan respect and revere the sacred ISI and Pak army institutions?

Or is there any other Pakistan that I am missing? Or do you want your own quote to be displayed again verbatim?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Pakistan before the Liberation of East Pakistan had a common language - Urdu.

It was not accepted by the Bengalis of East Pakistan, and so there was the Language Agitation. Even so, Urdu remained the language of Pakistan including East Pakistan!
'
Islam was the raison d'être for the creation of Pakistan, to include East Pakistan.

The languages of Pakistan are not similar to Punjabi or Urdu.

Pashto is a member of the Eastern Iranian languages group.

Brahui is a Dravidian language of central and east-central Balochistan. The language has been influenced by neighbouring Balochi and to a lesser extent by Sindhi and Pashto. 1–1.5% of the Pakistani population has Brahui as their first language. It is one of the nine distinguished languages of Pakistan.

One could go on.......
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Neo

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
Pakistan before the Liberation of East Pakistan had a common language - Urdu.

It was not accepted by the Bengalis of East Pakistan, and so there was the Language Agitation. Even so, Urdu remained the language of Pakistan including East Pakistan!
'
Islam was the raison d'être for the creation of Pakistan, to include East Pakistan.

The languages of Pakistan are not similar to Punjabi or Urdu.

Pashto is a member of the Eastern Iranian languages group.

Brahui is a Dravidian language of central and east-central Balochistan. The language has been influenced by neighbouring Balochi and to a lesser extent by Sindhi and Pashto. 1–1.5% of the Pakistani population has Brahui as their first language. It is one of the nine distinguished languages of Pakistan.

One could go on.......
Ask any man and you will know that 95 pc of Pakistanis know and do speak Urdu. Since they do it willingly, it means they are more a solid nation than India where there is no language known by even 80 percent of population.. Hundreds of millions of Indians from south can not communicate with hundreds of millions of north and vice versa.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neo

Neo

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
4,514
Likes
964
With this rate you Pakjabies are soon going to call Sindhies as Hindus.... and PPP as a Hindu Party.

the same thing you did with Bengalies.... and Mukti Bahani... and Seikh Mujib-ur- Rahaman

I would not mind that ... may be another trip to Pakistan....

Why are you folks so self destructive ??
PPP is corrupt and guilty of nepotism in each government they have formed sofar.
She's one of the many tumors my country is suffering from. Don't even try to drag religion in here.
It's all dirty politics, they cash on communal riots and want to break Karachi's Urdu speaking elite by setting up communal riots.
 

Neo

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
4,514
Likes
964
Guess your media also dislikes PA and ISI and will do anything to hurt their image?

Pak Army and Pak nationalism – The Express Tribune

To create internal unity, states may use the threat of an external enemy or even create an external enemy if it is not present. An ideology may also be created to cement the otherwise clashing identities inside the state. Ideologies are usually coercive unless subjected to a paradoxical experiment: encouragement of diversity to create stakes for all identities in the preservation of the state.

The Pakistan Army today is repository of Pakistani nationalism. It dominates all the institutions of the state and has taken longer to effect an internal reconsideration of its India-centred nationalism than the civilian political elite. The textbook is on its side and not on the side of the intellectually more supple political leadership.
.
The writer is Director South Asian Media School and speaks about his opinions.
Like I stated earlier, media enjoys the freedom to bash PA and ISI but does not necessarily represent national sentiment.
 

Neo

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
4,514
Likes
964
As far as the Pak poster having the audacity to say "If you want to see how we respect our Army, come to Pakistan. ", might I suggest why doesn't he himself go back to Pakistan from Holland and live there if the glorious Pak army and ISI keeps everyone there safe and life is a bed or roses in Pak where everyone respects and trusts these "sacred military institutions".
I am serving my country while living in Netherlands with Dutch nationality but I will surely retire and grow old in Pakistan.
My current business allows me to spend upto 4 months per year in Pakistan and I wish I could spend more time there.
Home sweet home!
 

thethinker

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
2,808
Likes
6,489
Country flag
With this rate you Pakjabies are soon going to call Sindhies as Hindus.... and PPP as a Hindu Party.

the same thing you did with Bengalies.... and Mukti Bahani... and Seikh Mujib-ur- Rahaman

I would not mind that ... may be another trip to Pakistan....

Why are you folks so self destructive ??
It's called selective reasoning.

Few examples :

Only a few Pakistani militants proved a challenge to Indian army. (here lesser size is good and is used as a victory/superior/bravery stance).

Pak is building infrastructure but it's economy is 9 times smaller then India (here lesser size is bad and is used as a limitation to support argument)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pak ISI is sacred to millions of Pakistanis (large size to denote confidence)

Who is PPP to judge ISI

(Isolating and ignoring specific elements (highlighted in bold below) from the main argument while still trying to support original claim that millions in Pak revere and respect ISI) :

same PPP who has a CM in Sindh heading all the ministeries even though 10 months have passed since elections?
Or same PPP which bailed out the loss making domestic airline owned by Zardari's sister?
The same PPP which is snatching jobs from everyone in Karachi to give them to Sindhis?
Or same PPP that is fuelling communal riots between different communities in Karachi?
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
LANGUAGE IN PAKISTAN
In the recent coverage of Pakistani political strife, I haven't seen much about the troubled linguistic and ethnic situation there. This is probably because the official ideology is to deny its existence. Thus according to Tariq Rahman ("Language and Politics in a Pakistan Province: The Sindhi Language Movement", Asian Survey, 35(11) 1105-1016, 1995):

Pakistan is a multilingual country with a population in 1994 of about 128 million. While multilingualism is not denied -- though the 1981 census contained no question on language -- the state denies the multinationality thesis endorsed by ethnonationalist leaders. The classical form of this thesis, argued by Gankovsky, is that there are four major nationalities in Pakistan: the Punjabi, Sindhi, Pakhtun, and Baluchi (Bangladesh, the former East Pakistan, has been left out here). To this list, the Siraiki was added in the 1960s and an effort to make Muhajir a nationality began in the 1980s. The official point of view is that there is one Pakistani nation united by the bonds of Islam and the national language, Urdu.

But Urdu is the native language of only about 7% of the country's population. Its imposition has caused "language riots" since the country's foundation, and language-focused unrest was at the center of the struggle that resulted in the former East Pakistan breaking away as Bangladesh in 1971. Other struggles about language policy have continued since that time, especially with respect to the role of Sindhi, the language of the region where Benazir Bhutto's Pakistan Peoples Party has its central power base.

Tariq Rahman ("Language policy, multilingualism and language vitality in Pakistan", Trends in Linguistics, 175:7 3-106, 2006) gives this language distribution in Pakistan as of the 2001 census:

As Alyssa Ayres points out ("The Politics of Language Policy in Pakistan", in Brown and Ganguly, eds., Fighting Words: Language Policy and Ethnic Relations in Asia, MIT Press):

Conflicts over language identity are not merely about language: They are intertwined with struggles over power and access to it. The vast majority of Pakistan's rulers and policymakers have been Punjabi and mohajirs (settlers), while the military has been ruled by a Punjabi-Mohajir-Pathan nexus.

This leaves out about a third of the population in the remaining western half of the country, with the inhabitants of Sind at the head of the list. Ayres again:

The story of Pakistan's Sindhi language movement (and language riots) parallels that of the Bengali language movement from partition in 1947 through Benazir Bhutto's first regime (1988-90). During Bhutto's first term in office, tensions between Karachi's numerous ethnic groups exploded. ...

Sindhi, like Bengali, enjoyed regional hegemony throughout the time of the British Raj. It has long had a literature and a widespread presence both colloquially and administratively. ... Sind had been a separate province during the Raj. This was due in part to the Sindhi language movement of the 1930s, which had resulted in Sind separating from the Bombay presidency in 1936. This institutionalization of a Sindhi ethnic identity linked directly to language was therefore in place even before partition. Partition would trigger Sindhi ethnic mobilization for two reasons: cultural insensitivity and economic subjugation.

Partition brought massive demographic changes to the subcontinent. Karachi in particular saw an enormous influx of migrants from Uttar Pradesh -- the Urdu-speaking Mohajirs -- as well as from Punjab, Baluchistan, and the NWFP. At the same time, Hindus, who had comprised 64 percent of the population of Sind prior to partition, fled to India. Homes and possessions left behind in Karachi and other urban centers (as well as agrarian lands in the Sindhi interior) were claimed by Mohajirs. The results were striking: In Karachi, Mohajirs comprised 57.55 percent of the population in 1951; in Hyderabad, 66.08 percent. These cities were effectively cleaved in half and then populated by strangers.

When Pakistan came into being, Sindhis, like Bengalis, were surprised to find their language would be subservient to Urdu in the national order. This lower status offended Sindhi cultural pride. The problem was exacerbated by the inherent advantage afforded the newcomer Mohajirs, whose mother tongue was the national language; this gave Mohajirs a considerable advantage in seeking government employment.

A crucial event early in Pakistan's history helped to precipitate Sindhi-Urdu tensions: On July 23, 1948, the provincial government of Sind offered the city of Karachi to the federal government for use as the new capital of Pakistan. The federal government, headed by Jinnah, accepted the offer and then decided to reconstitute the city as a federal territory. When M.A. Khuhro, then chief minister of Sind, objected, he was dismissed by Jinnah on grounds of being both a poor administrator and a corrupt government official. Karachi thus became a federal territory with a heavy Urdu presence. Most important, however, the economic and cultural capital of Sind was perceived as having been hijacked by the Pakistani state. From the Sindhi point of view, these developments created a painful inequality: To obtain government jobs, Sindhis would have to learn a "foreign" language. At the same time, the newly arrived "foreigners" (i.e., Mohajirs) did not have to learn Sindhi to go about their daily lives in urban Sind, where most of them lived. There was no compelling reason for Mohajirs to integrate with Sindhis -- a situation that struck the latter as highly discriminatory.

There's a lot more to the story, but this should be enough to give you the general idea. And it's not only in Sind that language policy is a social and political issue, according to Rahman (see the original text for references):

[T]he privileging of Urdu by the state has created ethnic opposition to it. However, as people learn languages for pragmatic reasons, they are giving less importance to their heritage languages and are learning Urdu. This phenomenon, sometimes called 'voluntary shift', is not really 'voluntary' as the case of the native Hawaiians, narrated by Daniel Nettle and Suzanne Romaine, illustrates. What happens is that market conditions are such that one's language becomes a deficit in relation to what Pierre Bourdieu, the French sociologist, would call 'cultural capital'. Instead of being an asset it becomes a liability. It prevents one from rising in society. In short, it is ghettoizing. Then, people become ashamed of their language as the Punjabis, otherwise a powerful majority in Pakistan, are observed to be by the present author and others ... Or, even if language movements and ethnic pride does not make them ashamed of their languages, they do not want to teach the language to their children because they think that would be overburdening the children with far too many languages. For instance, Sahibzada Abdul Qayyum Khan reported in 1932 that the Pashtuns wanted their children to be instructed in Urdu rather than Pashto. And even this year (2003), the MMA government has chosen Urdu, not Pashto, as the language of the domains of power, including education, in the N.W.F.P. The same phenomenon was noticed in Baluchistan. Balochi, Brahvi and Pashto were introduced as the compulsory medium of instruction in government schools in 1990. Language activists enthusiastically prepared instructional material but on 8 November 1992, these languages were made optional and parents switched back to Urdu. Such decisions amount to endangering the survival of minor languages and they devalue even major ones but they are precisely the kind of policies that have created what is often called 'Urdu imperialism' in Pakistan.

In short, the state's use of Urdu as a symbol of national integration has had two consequences. First, it has made Urdu the obvious force to be resisted by ethnic groups. This resistance makes them strengthen their languages by corpus planning (writing books, dictionaries, grammars, orthographies etc) and acquisition planning (teaching the languages, using them in the media, pressurizing the state to use them ...). Secondly, it has jeopardized additive multilingualism as recommended by UNESCO ... As Urdu spreads through schooling, media and urbanization, pragmatic pressures make the other Pakistani languages retreat. In short, the consequence of privileging Urdu strengthens ethnicity while, at the same time and paradoxically, threatens linguistic and cultural diversity in the country.

Perhaps the most important result of resistance to Urdu is increase the importance of English, as discussed by Ehsan Masood ("Urdu's last stand", 9/1/2007). Benazir Bhutto's Urdu was notoriously poor ("Benazir's poor Urdu inspires many a joke", ExpressIndia, 12/4/2007), and Pervez Musharraf's Urdu is apparently also often criticized, though Urdu is his native tongue.

[After writing this post, I saw that Tristan Mabry has an excellent Op-Ed in this morning's Philadelphia Inquirer, "In divided Pakistan, not all are mourning Bhutto". Tristan (a friend from his time as a grad student at Penn) knows these issues well. The quality of the information in his article is a striking contrast to the (complete?) omission of these matters from the rest of the media coverage of the situation in Pakistan, both before and after Bhutto's assassination. It would be nice to see his expertise published in more prominent newspapers, and mixed in with the usual talking heads on the national broadcast media.]




Language Percentage of speakers
Punjabi
44.15
Pashto
15.42
Sindhi
14.10
Siraiki
10.53
Urdu
7.57
Balochi
3.57
Other
4.66

Language Log: Language in Pakistan

*************************

This is not my anecdotal kiteflying, and instead what is the reality in Pakistan.

I proffered the link so that one is aware what is the reality instead of acting as an ''expert'' when in acuality is not being very truthful with the facts.
 
Last edited:

thethinker

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
2,808
Likes
6,489
Country flag
.
The writer is Director South Asian Media School and speaks about his opinions.
Like I stated earlier, media enjoys the freedom to bash PA and ISI but does not necessarily represent national sentiment.
You sir are a master of selective reasoning and confirmation bias. :thumb:
 

Blackwater

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
21,156
Likes
12,211
I am serving my country while living in Netherlands with Dutch nationality but I will surely retire and grow old in Pakistan.
My current business allows me to spend upto 4 months per year in Pakistan and I wish I could spend more time there.
Home sweet home!
still u did not vote in local election or did u?


u r lucky u live in holland if u lived in UK and go to Pakistan regularity u will be in the eyes of MI-5:lol::lol:
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Pakistan before the Liberation of East Pakistan had a common language - Urdu.

It was not accepted by the Bengalis of East Pakistan, and so there was the Language Agitation. Even so, Urdu remained the language of Pakistan including East Pakistan!
'
Islam was the raison d'être for the creation of Pakistan, to include East Pakistan.

The languages of Pakistan are not similar to Punjabi or Urdu.

Pashto is a member of the Eastern Iranian languages group.

Brahui is a Dravidian language of central and east-central Balochistan. The language has been influenced by neighbouring Balochi and to a lesser extent by Sindhi and Pashto. 1–1.5% of the Pakistani population has Brahui as their first language. It is one of the nine distinguished languages of Pakistan.

One could go on.......
How close is this Brahavi song to Punjabi/ Urdu?


How close is Pahsto to Punjabi/Urdu

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Pratap

Tihar Jail
Banned
Joined
Mar 18, 2014
Messages
1,260
Likes
508
How close is this Brahavi song to Punjabi/ Urdu?


How close is Pahsto to Punjabi/Urdu

Irrelevant as even Baloch separatists and Pashtuns living in Peshawar speak Urdu. No one is saying that Urdu is native language of more than 10 percent of Pakistanis, only that it is known to almost all as national language and that entire Pakistan has a national identity in form of Islam.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Ask any man and you will know that 95 pc of Pakistanis know and do speak Urdu. Since they do it willingly, it means they are more a solid nation than India where there is no language known by even 80 percent of population.. Hundreds of millions of Indians from south can not communicate with hundreds of millions of north and vice versa.
Is it bad I dont speak Urdu but Im Pakistani?
So im Paki, well part Afghan and Saudi too from my dad but my dads whole family grew up in Pakistan. Anyway my moms whole family is Paki and my parents constantly speak in Urdu. But moving on i dont speak it as much as i should. I UNDERSTAND perfectly there are only a few words I get mixed up or dont understand. Anyway I dont know why I dont speak it, I guess im just not comfortable SPEAKING it. Is that bad?

-oh and i understand Pashto too
Is it bad I dont speak Urdu but Im Pakistani? - Yahoo Answers
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
Irrelevant as even Baloch separatists and Pashtuns living in Peshawar speak Urdu. No one is saying that Urdu is native language of more than 10 percent of Pakistanis, only that it is known to almost all as national language and that entire Pakistan has a national identity in form of Islam.
Thank you.

Since you have been there meeting separatists and terrorists, and have interacted with them, we must give way!

I have some knowledge of Urdu and Punjabi and I found it hard to believe that they are similar to the other languages of Pakistan!

But we must believe you since you claim to have met separatist and terrorist out there in Peshawar speaking Urdu.

Islam has nothing to do with knowing Urdu.

Islam requires one to know Arabic.

The reason why Urdu was selected was because the Mohajirs were the educated ones, who were controlling the bureaucracy, commerce, legal and all other aspects of governance. It was a seesaw wherein they were pitted against the Army composed of Punjabis and Pastuns - the real sons of the soil who did not want to be pushed into the background.

That is the essence of the tussle in Pakistan!
 
Last edited:

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top