Pakistan: China wont let India gain entry inton NSG

[AnantS]

By joining NSG, we can easily access Uranium from other countries without specially going for bilateral ties with everyone (which we can't do).

India has 17% of population of world but just 2-3% if electrical output.
So, we have a target to produce nearly 62000 MW electricity by 2030.
By getting NSG, we can fulfill it rapidly. Otherwise, we will have to ratify our climate treaty for producing energy which won't gonna be good for ourselves too.


It is true that India enjoys most of comforts of NSG with help of waivers, So, NSG membership won't bring a much greater advantage except corporation with few more countries.

But the main thing matter here is political power and UNSC.
We entered MTCR, getting NSG, every such step will further give us more political power and strengthen bid for UNSC.
Mark my words, if we get in NSG, government will play UNSC with similar desperation.

The only positive thing about NSG is that with waiver we are dependent on US. If US withdraws that waiver in future, we would require NSG to ensure our reactors continue to get fuel.

Now the NSG doesnt make sense if we ignore Nehru Bhakti and other Trash Talk, is these two paragraphs:

One of these changes, though, made a crucial difference to our waiver, which “provided that transfers of sensitive exports remain subject to paragraphs 6 and 7 of Guidelines”. In 2011, before the other amendments were adopted, Paragraph 6 was revised to prohibit trade in enrichment and reprocessing with any country that has not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), which means that no NSG member can cooperate in these areas with India. Exactly as the NSG was set up to target India after its 1974 test, this amendment was introduced by NPT evangelists to target India after the 2008 waiver, which they could not thwart. We seem to have accepted this as a fait accompli.

As the record shows, once the NSG adopts changes, it retains them for over a decade, because its amendments are comprehensive and reaching agreement on alterations is hard. The last changes came after almost 20 years. Therefore, even if India does become a member now, it cannot beaver away at new rules. We might well want to revise paragraphs 6 and 7 again to suit our needs, but the rule of consensus, on which the NSG works, means anything we propose must be accepted by every other member.

 

[bose]

India will get NSG membership as it is not possible to block its entry for ever... once the non NPT clause is dropped ...

As such India's nuclear trade does not get hamper due to non inclusion... it will be as it ease and will grow in future...

what is getting apparent clear is China is against India growth... earlier China was hiding behind NPT but the actual reason is out in the open....

It will now allow India to get into some sort of strategic alliance with US, Japan, Vietnam, South Korea without inhibitions of what China's sensibility ...

India need to do couple of things...

1. United India irrespective of political differences to get to a robust economic growth to 8 - 10% in couple of years and sustain it for next 10 years.

2. Systematically create barrier to Chinese business in India and look for alternative else where.

 

[Bornubus]

Yes they gave you lollypop and your mentally retarded Modi going crazy over with it

Modi didn't ask for the award, you fool. Arab gave him their highest honor just to show you your worth.

Their ministers on record threatened you of not joining the anti Houthi coalition, this is your worth in Musalman world.

Actually Al Miskin (lowly Hindu converts ) have no dignity among real Musalman.

_________________

And don't worry your time will come on your Eastern border just like before 2003 when your Army declared an unilateral cease fire after being pulverized by our Artillery in Neelam valley

 

[Compersion]

USA is giving us 99% of hardware provided we want it (for hard cash) same is true for civilian reactor tech. Others are giving us nuclear material. Uncle has entire worlds tech.

So NSG or not we are in driving seat.

agreed. but there is a confluence of many parameters that join together where India form a relationship with USA that gets hooked to what happened after 1998. where a lot of tech was disturbed by post response to our nuke testing.

if you look at pakistan where they got "waiver" and even "unseeing" and "vision-less" behavior from USA during the period Pakis were stealing and doing AQ Khan behavior for the nuke programme even with USA sanctions. It is clear if USA wants to support someone it does not matter about rules and procedures they will bend them and show they are true partners. Even at extremem risk. This has happened also with PRC membership into UNSC in 1970s.

India frankly has not experience that yet with USA fully recently and NSG in a way shows the loss of face on USA by PRC. It is good USA and India is going in that direction with bilateral nuke civil agreements, MTCR, etc. But further i would like India to see Nuke Test(s) shortly to demonstrate and observe how natural the USA and India partnership really is. Is it same like 98 ? is it like 74 ? is it new ... The NSG delay and denial is not a good precedent for India to carry for the world. We must not allow our name to be used like that.

 

[SANITY]

If US withdraws that waiver in future, we would require NSG to ensure our reactors continue to get fuel.

How easy it is to withdraw that waiver? It has to have complete consensus, Right? It doesn't seem a very possible scenario to not have even one person opposing withdrawl of waiver.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

The only positive thing about NSG is that with waiver we are dependent on US. If US withdraws that waiver in future, we would require NSG to ensure our reactors continue to get fuel.

Now the NSG doesnt make sense if we ignore Nehru Bhakti and other Trash Talk, is these two paragraphs:

Oh! I see.
if India signs NPT, it will declare us as a non nuclear state and will rollback our nuclear weapons program.
So, IMO, next step must be getting an exception for NPT,(getting the status of nuclear weapon rich state).
For again getting exception against the monopoly of P5.

 

[SANITY]

Chinese academic says India should tap the UN Security Council to enter NSG
http://m.thehindu.com/news/internat...urity-council-to-enter-nsg/article8769489.ece

 

[Indx TechStyle]

NSG appoints nuclear envoy to informal panel for India

Rafael Grossi. Photo: Sandeep Saxena | The Hindu
‘U.S. is confident that India would be a full member of Nuclear Suppliers Group by the end of the year’

India’s case at the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) may not have been taken forward formally this year but it wasn’t shelved entirely, sources indicated here, saying that a decision had been taken on an “informal consultative process” especially for India’s case.

According to highly placed diplomatic sources, the closed-door session of the NSG that ended its annual plenary in Seoul on Friday appointed Argentine Ambassador Rafael Grossi as the “Facilitaor of the Chairperson to having informal consultations with the Participating Governments (PGs) in the group”.

The decision indicates that despite opposition from China and other countries on the issue of the Non-Proliferation Treaty that India has refused to sign, and the desire of several NSG countries to look for a “non-discrimatory” membership process that includes all non-NPT states, India’s application was acknowledged to have some merit of its own.

Members reportedly agreed to the informal arrangement after a special session where several countries raised India’s case, which went past midnight on Thursday and stretched into the next day’s concluding session.

Eventually the NSG joint statement only recorded a bland account of the session, recording that “The NSG had discussions on the issue of “Technical, Legal and Political Aspects of the Participation of non-NPT States in the NSG” and decided to continue its discussion.”

Key appointment

Ambassador Grossi’s appointment to assist the new Chairperson from Switzerland with the “continued discussion” on India is significant, as Mr. Grossi is the outgoing Chairperson of the NSG, and was keenly involved in bringing India’s bid to the NSG table this year.

During a visit to New Delhi in October 2015, he told The Hindu, “Nobody disputes that India is a key, major player in the nuclear scenario, hence there is a recognition that some formula must be found for India [to become a member] and I think it is possible.”

Sources say that not only is the selection of Mr. Grossi to the “facilitating” position a positive sign for India as Argentina has been very supportive of India’s bid, he is an international expert on disarmament, and negotiated the accession of 197 members to the Chemical Warfare Convention (CWC) some years ago.

He was also considered a frontrunner for the post of Director-General of the U.N.’s nuclear watchdog the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) for 2017.

Path forward

News of Mr. Grossi’s appointment came even as a U.S. official reportedly said that the NSG session had ended with a “path forward” for India’s acceptance as a member.

Speaking to PTI in Washington the unnamed source identified as “a top Obama administration official said that India’s membership process needed “some work”, but that the U.S. is “confident that India would be a full member of the [NSG] regime by the end of the year.”

MEA officials wouldn’t comment on either developments involving Mr. Grossi’s appointment and the constitution of an informal group on India or the U.S. official’s remarks, saying only that according to the NSG confidentiality procedures there is no “readout of what type of proposals were made inside the room.”

Don't know about yanks, but I'm 100% confident. :biggrin2:

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Chinese academic says India should tap the UN Security Council to enter NSG
http://m.thehindu.com/news/internat...urity-council-to-enter-nsg/article8769489.ece

Exactly my point about NPT.

 

[AnantS]

How easy it is to withdraw that waiver? It has to have complete consensus, Right? It doesn't seem a very possible scenario to not have even one person opposing withdrawl of waiver.

123 can go down. And about waiver, it can be diluted by future amendments to NSG. Thats the gist I get from this article: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...ghtened-power-but-as-a-strategic-small-timer/

and the hindu article.

 

[AnantS]

Oh! I see.
if India signs NPT, it will declare us as a non nuclear state and will rollback our nuclear weapons program.
So, IMO, next step must be getting an exception for NPT,(getting the status of nuclear weapon rich state).
For again getting exception against the monopoly of P5.

We will not sign NPT unless we are recognized as 6th N Power. Otherwise we are not interested in NPT, whose very basis of existence was to rollback India's progress.

 

[SANITY]

123 can go down. And about waiver, it can be diluted by future amendments to NSG. Thats the gist I get from this article: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...ghtened-power-but-as-a-strategic-small-timer/

and the hindu article.

Umm...What's 123? I didn't get it.

The indiatimes article speaks of possible dilution of waiver but does not explain how easy/difficult it is.

The Hindu article explains some:

Ripe red herrings
Other arguments have been put forward for our getting into the NSG: that the waiver could be revoked, that China could create problems for India and we should be in a cabal that is so powerful. These are ripe red herrings. Firstly, the waiver was not specific to the agreement with the U.S., it covered all the items in the NSG’s lists, and it has no sunset clause; India needs no further waiver to import from willing exporters anything it needs for “IAEA-safeguarded civil nuclear facilities”; from 2011, of course, this would exclude enrichment and reprocessing. It can only be revoked by consensus, and India truly would be friendless if it cannot find one influential member of the NSG to oppose a proposal that the waiver be cancelled. Neither China nor any other member can create problems for India within the terms of the waiver: whether any member sells to us or not will be dependent entirely on other factors, including its domestic laws and the strength of our bilateral relations.

It's possible to revoke but seems pretty impossible.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

PM Narendra Modi confident on NSG, says process has begun on positive note

The Prime Minister said successive governments have made consistent efforts for getting membership of the UN Security Council, Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and NSG.

NEW DELHI: Notwithstanding China objecting to India's entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group, Prime Minister Narendra Modi today exuded confidence that the country will get membership of the bloc and the process for it has begun on a "positive note".

Modi said India has a number of problems with China and efforts are on to resolve them one-by-one through talks.

Asked during an interview whether he was disappointed as China blocked India's bid for membership of the NSG and how close it was to getting it, Modi only said things will move forward as per rules.

The Prime Minister said successive governments have made consistent efforts for getting membership of the UN Security Council, Shanghai Cooperation Organisation, Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) and NSG.

"First thing is that India has taken up such efforts consistently whichever government was in power -- be it membership of UN Security Council, SCO or MTCR or NSG. All of us made efforts.

"It is not only this government which has done this. This is in continuity. It is true that in our tenure, SCO has been achieved, MTCR membership has been achieved. I am fully confident that we have begun efforts in the direction of the NSG (membership), formally.

"The process has begun on a positive note. Everything is governed by its own rules. Things will move forward as per rules," he told Times Now channel.

Asked about China scuttling India's NSG bid and its efforts to get Masood Azhar banned by the UN despite Modi's frequent interactions with Chinese President Xi Jingping, the Prime Minister said efforts are on to resolve issues with that country through talks.

"We have an ongoing dialogue with China and it should continue. In foreign policy, it is not necessary to have similar views to have a dialogue. Even when there are contradictions, talks are the only way forward and problem should be resolved through dialogue.

"We do not have one problem with China, we have a whole lot of problems pending with China. There are so many issues. Slowly and steadily efforts are on to find solutions to them one-by-one," said Modi.

He said China has also been cooperative towards finding solutions.

"But there are some issues in which we differ from them and they differ from us. But the most important thing is that we are now talking to China eye-to-eye and raising the issues of Indian interests boldly. Three days back I met the Chinese President and put forward issues relating to India's interests strongly," he said.

READ MORE:
Xi Jingping|US|UN Security Council SCO|UN|Times now|Technology|SCO

 

[rock127]

has there been any discussion abt admission of any specific applicant to NSG? nada! the focal point has always been procedures for ALL non NPT aspirants.

none of members voice overt opposition to any specific application.

~Tapa talks: Orange is the new black.~

You were not there as a minister and heck you are no one to claim without any proof.Just like your Paki counterpart(having no credibility) you are filled with lies and deceit with no source.You are just a low level 50 center who is told by Communist regime to fill posts without facts.Poor Chinese get FILTERED info/news in China.

China calls for talks among NSG members to admit India, others

China is extremely insecure about India.Just a decade of growth has corrupted your small brain BUT don't worry since either India would get into NSG or have ways to do it.We already have NSG Waiver and you have to agree as well to include us.

We are in MTCR where you are REJECTED flatly not because of "low quality standards" but actually you provide Terrorist States like Pakistan and DPRK the missile tech for Nukes.You have applied many times but rejected so apply again and we have the right to REJECT you in MTCR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_Technology_Control_Regime

The People's Republic of China is not a member of the MTCR but has agreed to abide by the original 1987 Guidelines and Annex, but not the subsequent revisions. China first verbally pledged that it would adhere to the MTCR in November 1991, and included these assurances in a letter from its Foreign Minister in February 1992. China reiterated its pledge in the October 1994 US-China joint statement. In their October 1997 joint statement, the United States and China stated that they agree "to build on the 1994 Joint Statement on Missile Nonproliferation."[3] In 2004 China applied to join the MTCR, but members did not offer China membership because of concerns about China's export control standards.[4][5]

 

[AnantS]

Umm...What's 123? I didn't get it.

123 agreement-US India Nucelar deal

The indiatimes article speaks of possible dilution of waiver but does not explain how easy/difficult it is.

The Hindu article explains some:

It's possible to revoke but seems pretty impossible.

It all depends on the Govt and its deftness at that time. Given geo political relations change at blink of an eye, who knows if what kind of political leadership we have in future? esp given the kind of opposition we have today, I dont have high hopes. With current setup you wont get another Modi or Narsimha on the helm any time soon

 

[Kshatriya87]

Member who blocked India's entry into NSG must be held accountable, says US

US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon asserted that in a consensus-based organisation, one country can break consensus. But in order to do so it must be (held) accountable.

A week after India failed to get entry into Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) due to China-led opposition, the US today said one country can break consensus in the atomic trading bloc and insisted that such member should be held accountable.

US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon asserted that the US is committed to ensuring India's entry into the NSG while expressing "regret" that Washington was unsuccessful in making India a member of the bloc in its pleanary in Seoul last week.

"We understand that in a consensus-based organisation, one country can break consensus. But in order to do so it must be (held) accountable not isolated.

"I think what we need to do going forward is, for both of us India and the US, sit down and take a call what happened in the Seoul, take a close look at the diplomatic process which is significant and see what more we can do and how we can ensure that next time we are successful," he said during an interactive session at the Foreign Service Institute.

Calling India an "anchor of stability" in the Asia Pacifc region, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon also said what China was doing in South China Sea is "madness" and it wants New Delhi to play a major role in the Indian Ocean.

Shannon said managing the rise of China was a major challenge and that the US wants to work with India to have a strong and comprehensive presence in the Indian Ocean.

Describing India a responsible and important player in the sphere of nuclear non-proliferation, Shannon said, "We are committed to having India join the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We believe that through the kind of work we have done, the civil nuclear agreement, the way India conducted itself, it is worthy of this."

On India's NSG bid, he said the US would continue to work for India's inclusion in the group.

Shannon, who met Foreign Secretary S Jaishankar earlier in the day, said India's recent entry into the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) highlighted that the country is a "responsible and important player in the road to non- proliferation."

"We regret, in Seoul we and India, were unable to open space necessary to allow India to move into the NSG at this moment," he said.

When asked whether he thinks India will ratify the Paris climate deal before Obama administration's tenure got over and, at the same time, it will become a member of the NSG, he said "I hope so".

He said India has given a commitment to ratify the climate deal.

Shannon said that Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation was a very important symbol of friendship between the two countries.

"Just a few weeks ago, President Obama and Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi welcomed the start of preparatory work on a site in Andhra Pradesh for six AP 1000 reactors to be built by an American company.

"This is expected to provide jobs in both countries and bring clean, reliable electricity that will help meet India s growing energy needs while reducing reliance on fossil fuels," he said.

 

[Neo]

This is hilarious; on what moral accounts could China be held accountable when it is the USA itself who set up the basic rule not to include an non-npt signatory into the club?

 

[Neo]

Calling India an "anchor of stability" in the Asia Pacifc region, US Under Secretary for Political Affairs Tom Shannon also said what China was doing in South China Sea is "madness" and it wants New Delhi to play a major role in the Indian Ocean.

What America is doing all over the world is madness.
Btw, nicely sugar coated msg to India to do USA' dirty job in Asia

 

[Kshatriya87]

This is hilarious; on what moral accounts could China be held accountable when it is the USA itself who set up the basic rule not to include an non-npt signatory into the club?

You are right there but lets not forget why exactly China is blocking India. China doesn't give a shit about NPT.

What America is doing all over the world is madness.

Here I cannot agree as the topic is about Chinese madness. What China is doing in south china sea is wrong and can only be defined as expansionism.

Btw, nicely sugar coated msg to India to do USA' dirty job in Asia

Absolutely.

 

[Neo]

You are right there but lets not forget why exactly China is blocking India. China doesn't give a shit about NPT.

Let's also not forget why the US is hell-bent over making all the exceptions for India without merit. On paper 'good behavior' is not merit but NPT is a pre condition for joining.
US bullied the whole world including minors like New Zealand to bend in 2008 weakening the NPT. It won't happen twice.

Actually the world gives a shyt about NPT aslong as their interests are served. All the nuclear states have proliferated. US is the only one to have actually used them.

Here I cannot agree as the topic is about Chinese madness. What China is doing in south china sea is wrong and can only be defined as expansionism.

SCS is a regional conflict, it only affects a fee countries. ..mainly China's neighbors.
But the US' CIA/Pentagon make or break a country, create war zones to serve her own defence industry and secure/create jobs. She supports military dictators and rogue insurgents and foget all about democracy and human rights whenever it suits her.
She has no moral right to criticise China in het own backyard.

Absolutely.

Abhi to shuruaat hain, agaya agaya dekhiye hota hai kya. Cheers!