Pakistan, Caste and dilemma of quislings

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by LordOfTheUnderworlds, Mar 26, 2016.

  1. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    This is continuation of my comment on Nehru Gandhi ancestry conspiracy thread.

    Please ignore Nehru Gandhi conspiracy part. That is not the topic here. I created this thread to highlight something obvious about Pakistan problem that it seems everyone from mainstream historians, media to independent commentators and bloggers avoid talking, maybe it is conspiracy of silence among both Hindu and Muslim elites, maybe something else. But one thing everyone avoids is the caste/class aspect of creation of Pakistan which can give insights into why Pakistan is such a inherently racist, anti-Indian, criminal mentality state and a continuing mockery of human rights.

    So continuing from above comment, this elite Muslim class is remnant of Pan India civil war that reached its peak in 18th century and ended with European Multinational companies taking advantage of the chaos and confusion in the end with ultimate dominance by the British.
    What remained of Islamic i.e. Turkic/ Turko-mongol (and sometimes of Islamized Afghan mercinery tribes) rule was some princely states and Muslim ghetto towns that managed to survive by accepting subservience of (with occasional rebellions) of native Indian powers and later the British. The Muslim upper caste elites had social status and wealth so they could remain in their own bubble. Many times they migrate and marry across India in far away towns. Historians often trace origins of Pakistan movement to Sir Syed (highest Indian Muslim caste). They created their own myths and heroes and continued to mentally remain detached from reality and living in imaginary Islamic era. their history narrative also matched British narrative who could legitimize their occupation as legal transfer-of-power from one Mughal empire.

    But when British had to leave India this class feared losing their their privileges and social status (ever noticed how Pakistanis all the time keep whining about ghairat and equal status with India?) that they somehow had managed to retain by adjusting to British rule.

    But what exactly was so peculiar about these people that they so hated being part of India?

    That may be the crux of the problem. This class derives its higher caste status by claiming origins to invaders from outside India, where India is an enemy i.e. from central asian turkic/mongol/Iranian tribes (and sometimes Islamized mercenary Afghan tribes). Sometimes the ancestry may be actually related (though mixed with natives over centuries), often times forged to get higher caste status. Many of Indian upper castes also converted ( e.g. Pakistan army and ruling class has large number of Muslim rajputs and Jaats) and as quislings would try to show off their loyalty and association to their master race. Pakistan is result of insecurities and identity crisis of this class. The ideologues and leaders of Pakistan movement came fro this class. With instructions/ guidance from British masters they forged Pakistan by hiring a lawyer Jinnah (converted Rajput family) from Anglicized elite family in Bombay.
    They later found allies in nouveau riche Muslim landlords of North-west India (their land grants received from British) and after partition the Muslim families of British Indian army soldiers hailing from North-west India (who till date continue to be mercenaries of British empire and its successor American empire overtly and covertly) So in a way they are also quislings of bygone British empire along with being quislings of bygone Islamic era.

    This is one reason why Pakistan is inherently racist and inherently anti-India.

    (Off course here I have ignored inherent instability and violence in Islamic societies by virtue of them being Islamic societies. And larger number of native lower caste Muslims didn't really matter in these big political games. They are like sheep owned and harvested by masters)

    In last century, class divisions were used on large scale for creating civil wars and toppling governments. But the conspiracy of silence in Pakistani, Indian and western intellectuals means that such possibility was never explored in case of Pakistan. This has allowed Pakistani state (which is synonymous with the ruling class in feudal Pakistani society) to continue unhindered its process of erasing native history and continue to impose its artificial narrative through brainwashing the generations of masses (slave class).

    This is ironical because the class fault-lines in Pakistan's ideology (and among its sympathizers in India) are not just simple 'have' and 'have-nots', but it has an element of 'native' slave class versus master-class of 'outsiders' that does not owe or even pretend allegiance to the land.


    @pmaitra @asingh10 @Zarvan @Neo @musalman @rizwan78 etc etc
     
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  3. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    I just got banned from a Pakistani forum for creating a thread titled 'Original Constitution of Pakistan?' with an opinion poll 'should fatwa-e-alamgiri be adopted as Constitution of Pakistan?'
    This resulted in 3 months ban in less than 5 minutes. I don't know why it should be considered offensive and deserve ban. Perhaps it hit some nerve of some rich Ahmedi or upper caste Shia moderator ' s nerve.

    Anyway this is fatwa e alamgiri

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa-e-Alamgiri
     
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Interesting comment.

    I think the word "quisling," which translates into "collaborators of foreign invaders" might have to be used loosely here.

    The problem during the 18th century was the feudal mindset, that probably still exists in Pakistan today. A common phenomenon all over the world is that when one king confronts a more powerful king, he has two options: fight and be decimated, or become a vassal. Many Indian kings took the easy way out and became vassals. Some chose to fight.

    Going far back in the past, Porus, for example, chose to fight. He was a brave warrior, but he lost. He lost because he never got along with his neighbours, and his neighbours became quislings, and collaborated with the Greeks. If we look at the dynamics of that era, there really wasn't the concept of India as we have today. The very first major empire was forged by Chandragupta Maurya, and he didn't do it by braun, but by brains, i.e. by making clever alliances.

    Coming back to the 18 century, it probably wasn't particularly different. Taking the easy way out is sometimes the smarter option, than to get into a fight. Good military generals pick their fights wisely. They get into battles only when they are convinced they have a high chance of winning. Otherwise, they go for political settlement.

    So, the Pakistani elite, probably are the remnants of those that preferred to be part of the winning team. Many people in those days chose to convert to avoid the Jiziya tax. Many people chose to convert because the Mughals were seen as superior, and it was easy to assume so, given they were the rulers or an Empire, the founder of which, Babur, had demonstrated his military finesse against the Lodhis. Come the British Empire, many such rulers simply because vassals of the British Empire. Even Nepal, albeit not formally part of the British Empire, pledged allegiance to the British, knowing fully well they'd be decimated if they did not.

    So, the fundamental point is, we have had many quislings, but they look like quislings today because we see India as the Indian Union of today. Back in the day, it might not always have been like that. So, the term quisling has to be used loosely.
     
  5. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    Yes I used the word Quisling in a loose sense, more close to a 'vassal'. Couldn't find correct word for it. Anyway Quisling word itself is not very old and derived from name of Norwegian general who collaborated with Nazis and has been used with various shades. Here I want to highlight certain under explored psychological phenomena expressed in Pakistan and its apologists (which includes indians and subconsciously even people like you and me at times) related to the Stockholm syndrome.
    As they say 'Pakistan is a state of mind' : a zombified state of mind.


    Zombies:
    [​IMG]

    Quislings:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  6. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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  7. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    http://www.dawn.com/news/1268839/tw...s-tarbela-dam-shuttering-collapses-in-haripur
    What about safety of Pakistani nationals? No one cares for miskeens. Not even upper caste Mughlo-Turko-Persio-Arabo-Pakistanis.

    Notice the quisling mentality, eventhough Chinese are not traditional masters.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
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  8. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    Apparently there is no English translation of fatawa-e-alamgiri.
    Here is Urdu translation if anyone interested:

    https://archive.org/details/FatawaAalamgeeriUrduTranslationByShaykhSyedAmeerAlir.a

    I wish I could read it.
     
  9. OrangeFlorian

    OrangeFlorian #GoldAndBlack Senior Member

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  10. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    In other words Pakistan was created not as a nation but it was just a piece of land granted as a Jagir

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/british-support-for-pakistan-partition-of-india.74768/







    Times keep changing. Pakistan too had been evolving and now may appear as a regular nation state like others, but if we remember what Pakistan was originally supposed to be, we can better understand why Pakistanis behave all confused and Schizophrenic.

    When we talk of Kings and Nawabs and Princely states, there is hierarchy to that. Most small Rajas and Nawabs, even though practically independent states still in some way owe their
    allegiance to a larger Maharajas and Badshahs whom they serve or had once served but now memories faded away.

    Note that Jagir of Pakistan always needed a Master to act as an anchor. For long time they found it difficult to see themselves as sovereign independent responsible state.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  11. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    I remember some time back when they used to test nasr every fortnight, there was a news that India might be looking for iron dome system of israel. So I innocently asked a question in related thread there, 'can it be used against pakistan's nasr missile'. Some Indian members replied and discussed it for couple of pages.

    After two days ISPR declared that Pakistan has 'successfully' tested nasr missile again (they had already done a 'successful' test in same week).
    But this time the news report specifically mentioned that 'in a reply to a question the spokesperson said that nasr can not be stopped by anti-missile defence shield such as iron dome'!
     
  12. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    Of course this could just be coincidence but I have noted this pattern frequently. Often Pakistani government/ISPR statements and even the discussions they have on television every evening seem to be influenced by discussions in these few internet forums. I suspect some of the people we see in those funny clips of Pakistani evening talk shows might be members of these forums.

    The reason for this is not difficult to understand if you know little bit about Pakistan's social stratification.

    Pakistan has a thin crust of noisy affluent class made of upper caste Indian migrants, feudal extended families and army officers cartel and for all their internal bickering they are a small closely knit group often distantly related to each other.

    Since military is the largest amongst few functioning institutions and largest business group, most of them are in some way related to military and their world revolved around these few defence forums obsessed with India, cpec, kashmir, evil amrica and such things. They are occupied with these things whole day like aunties in saas bahu serials are occupied with kitchen politics.

    One peculiar thing about this Jagirdar class is that they are very conscious of what others especially Indians say about them. With little praise they will be flattered and some harsh words from India or America will break their hearts and they will cry rivers curse angrily, or feel embarrassed.

    In the Aman ki asha days Aakar Patel and few others had made an interesting observation in their interactions with Pakistanis that Pakistani reporters were fascinated when they saw how indian English language newspapers are sold so cheap (in pakistan they cost something like 5-10 times the price with fewer pages) and have so many pages and so freely criticize government. That is because Indian english language newspapers have huge circulation and they get lot of advertisement from private companies. In Pakistan English language newspapers sell barely few thousand copies and were dependent on government for advertisements.

    If you visit Pakistani news portals you will notice there are quite a few analysts with flourishing column section. They are like a part of a large family. They have some foreign degree or fake axact phd (half of them call themselves doctor). They all come from same class. Then there are some blogs and newbie columns full of heavy english words written by some college brats studying in UK or Canada or US. These kids are future from same class being groomed to become future analysts, experts, presstitutes and dalals/lobbyists. They are kids of rich parents who would not become engineers or doctors or army officers but take some fancy degree in humanities in some foreign college. Then these newspapers will get circulated in same closed society. In fact judging by the comments, perhaps their Indian readers outnumber Pakistani readers and sometimes they even try to appease Indians.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
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  13. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    One more thing to note. Indian elite class connects quite well with Pakistani elite class. They both will promptly blame all the things under the sun on lack of education, illiterate masses etc indirectly implying its all fault of the lowly slave class, despite the fact that in feudal societies all important decisions are taken by the small elite class and rest are just sheeple.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016
  14. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    somewhat relevant here...................................
     
  15. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    This is because both of them belong to the same cohort- they are durbaari.
     
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  16. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    from here http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...sacrifices-and-rain.77378/page-5#post-1202892

    This is just rhetoric. Not really going to happen. Even I can type anything I want, take printout and sign it with the stroke of the pen. Anyway, why don't you ask president to do it then?

    West can not be compared to India in this matter. Islamism is not part of their civilization any more like it is in India. For them it is an external factor; a question of foreigners, refugees, migrants. For India it is an internal issue and most Indian Muslims are not foreigners, this is their own country.

    Secondly dealing with Islamism is India's responsibility. Not of west, not any other major country/ civilization.
    Not even of Muslims.

    In fact it can be said Islamism thrives in the world because of India and caste system has had a significant role in that.

    Yes, I said world; and mixed caste system, India, Islam all khichdi together. Try to make sense out of that if you can. I will sleep for now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
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  17. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    Something relevant Fromhere

    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...-attacked-army-camp-in-j-ks-uri.77403/page-15

     
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  18. LordOfTheUnderworlds

    LordOfTheUnderworlds Regular Member

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    Yes they will follow their other religious traditions too and they do follow it whenever they can.

    So who's responsibility is it to find the solution for that? ; not evil west, or evil Christians or Chinese or Japanese.

    Not 'them', because they are just following the religion they are born into, to their best ability, and it is not their fault. That is only way of life they know. That is why they are not hypocrites. Blaming them is like blaming the innocent host for being a zombie and arrogantly asking 'why dont you behave like normal people? You jahil awam are paying for your past life sins'.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2016
  19. OneGrimPilgrim

    OneGrimPilgrim Senior Member Senior Member

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    whr invaders hv been eulogised, heroes binned!!
    though you are correct in that, but just because something or some practice(s) that's not compatible with changed dynamics and evolved sensibilities & is steeped in tradition/religion, it doesn't grant an automatic excuse for the status quo to remain. it was a similar simile used by the SC in its observation & judgement on Jallikattu.

    while it may not be any other evil ones' 'responsibility' to seek a reform in such things, but the biggest point of contention here is, that in the matters of this 'evil middle-eastern' ideology, even those from its own fold are desisted from seeking reforms ('desist' is a mild term)! a parallel? the 'triple talaq' case in point. should that also be treated with the 'religion' gloves? for a clueless SC is doing exactly that (asking another clueless entity, the Centre, on what to do). this all conundrum is the outcome of a traditionally yielding & dhimmitudal attitude towards a belligerent entity (@Science Singh). you give them a personal law board that routinely asserts its imperviousness from the law of the land with an islamic middle finger, you keep pampering communities like a child you suddenly found decades after losing, you'll obviously get what comes at you. the beating & backlash that the suraiyas & the irfans & the fatehs & the banos & numerous others receive, is no coincidence, but the direct consequence of letting things remain 'as they are' for fear of offending an entity to whom you have historically habituated yourself in doing assalam-aalekum bending over backwards with eyes shut, an entity that has thrived on preaching & practicing 'my way or the hellway', so yes, I agree with you that they wont know any better than what they are wont to do. when there's no space for or propounding of the virtue of introspection in an ideology &/but there's a book that's touted to supposedly tell everything, answer everything, then where's any quarter for self-inspection left? but this should be gladdening that more than a few people have begun rising up to put to practice what Ray sir used to say, "status quo wont go unchallenged", and this should be welcomed. this is the pragmatic way ahead, whether it takes some years or some decades. what (peeved) people from other communities have got to do with this is matter of another discussion, for this already is posted in an unrelated thread I think.
     
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  20. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    The biggest problem is you Hindus despite facing all this do not unite and threaten the law the way other foreign religions do.

    I am only telling you what I see as a third person. Your refusal to remind law that we are not in colonial or mughal era is what makes the judges and law authorities so bold.

    The other day i was seeing a video where Owaisi and his chamchas were pushing a police officer abusing him and he couldn't do anything.

    That, is missing from you Hindus.

    And that is what everyone takes for granted.

    Show a united middle finger to the Supreme Court, push a few legal staff around and unite together and see hwo they fear you.
     
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  21. OneGrimPilgrim

    OneGrimPilgrim Senior Member Senior Member

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    whr invaders hv been eulogised, heroes binned!!
    in my view, the reasons being:

    - 'Hinduism' lacks congregational characteristics
    - its now like an overly 'open source' system, allowing as many approaches as people, as well as hostile entities or their moles 'uploading' virus & malware-infected 'thoughts/ideologies', thereby infected others in the system.

    I think I don't have to write beyond this.

    the villagers near Tso Moriri left fishing from the lake when once Dalai Lama visited the place & said that killing animals is a sin. imagine a population of Hindus there instead of Buddhists & what would've been the reaction, esp. of the outside ones to it.
    one major reason why the Hindu community alongwith those from the Muslims themselves are giving a backlash on the particular subject I wrote on earlier, is exactly due to that persistent, consistent lopsided reaction I hinted at!
     

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