Pacifism and Morality

Discussion in 'Military History' started by Godless-Kafir, Feb 26, 2012.

  1. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    Small countries that do not even manufacturing cars are trying to make Armored war machines! This sends out some what an negative war culture in the european christian mindset. Dont mean to sound raceist but just an observation, sorry if it sounds bad. Europea and West in general has saddled itself with huge defense industries that may create an viscous cycle of creating wars for profiting and selling arms to both sides as in the case of India and Pakistan.
     
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  3. methos

    methos Regular Member

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    They are manufacturing cars, at least armoured ones (like the Digori). I don't know how much it shows "negative war culture" when you just have been invaded by Russia in 2008... what should they do in your opinion? It is a very small country which does not have large amounts of money. At first they need to compensate their losses from 2008, then they need a larger/better army to prevent loosing again.
     
  4. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    Making an armored car only proves my point. Also it was not invaded by Russia, Saakashvili was a war monger and he instigated a fight with Russia hopeing USA will come to its aid and they will have a bigger war where he can get more land but his plan failed miserably.
     
  5. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Pacifism is so lame... without wars and military industry complex with huge R&D there would not be any progress... of course there are some people that would like to live in peace being primitive in the same time. ;)

    Besides this, pacifists are weak, so they are easy prey. So GK, ---- pacifism ok? ;)
     
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  6. methos

    methos Regular Member

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    Saakashvili might have wanted a war, but international law speaks against Russia. Abchasia and South-Ossetia are lying in the borders which belong to Georgia according to UN, when Georgia was recognized. In Abchasia and South-Ossetia there is a large pro-Russian base of people with many of them having also the Russian citizenship - this is why Russia fought without any UN mandate.
     
  7. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    What should they do?
    They should have remained part of Russia. What have they got for their people by separating from Russia? Forced to produce ICVs rather than cars? OK fine but what about living standards and welfare of population ??
     
  8. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    I think You do not understand mentality of people living in that region, they do not nececary want to be part of Russia. As for living standard, these in eastern europe or ex soviet union region, are not that bad as most people tend to belive, these standards are actually higher than most people living around the world, for example Asia.
     
  9. methos

    methos Regular Member

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    Well, what did India get from not being part of the old British Empire anymore? Most parts of the Soviet Union did not want to be part of them, the same goes with large parts of the Chinese Peoples' Republic.
     
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  10. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    There is a huge variety of options between Pacifism and War mongering its funny you only see in black and white, it does not need to involve independent states competing against each other to find the best tool to kill one another. That is what resulted in the very uncivilized WW-2 if that is progress then you have no idea what is called being civilized, that mentality has not died down as yet but merely morphed into finding enemies outside.That is not what is called being progressive, it is on the other hand a very advanced state of barbarianism.

    Dresses and wealth do not reflect being civilized but its the character of an individual is what makes him civilized, even a murder can be dressed in the most exquisite clothes but a saint may be dressed in garb. So i dont judge civilization based on tools but by individual character.

    So if you ask me what is then your solution, i would say all peace loving democracies should come together to pool their weapons,technologies and economy so that we can drag these back ward minded states like Pakistan, Arabia, China etc., from their primitive tribal mindset of non-secular exclusivity. :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
  11. Godless-Kafir

    Godless-Kafir DFI Buddha Senior Member

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    That is true, i dont disagree with that. Either way it was Saakashvilli that instigated this conflict and i am not in the game of putting the instigator and the defender in the same boat of justice.

    However i dont agree with Bhadra and also you, for example the Kashmirs do not want to be part of India because they are Islamic Fascist who will not live with Hindus and crop up lame excuses of state brutality, when the truth is they want a Sharia governed state. So there is obviously a thin line between wanting freedom from oppression and wanting freedom for fascist goals. Often the later hides behind the formers excuse.
     
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  12. Bhadra

    Bhadra Defence Professionals Defence Professionals Senior Member

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    I think the Europeans have a history, a background and a culture which till today reains tribal to the core : of fiercely being isolationist, independent, racist and iconists rather than being broad minded, inclusive and tolerant. They have never been co-existentialist and in their very short history but war mongerers. That they developed a few things due to their fierce feudal competitive activities, graduated them into inhuman capitalism and captured globe by inhuman war is not a great achivement.

    They would never believe in Oriental values of preserving peace at all cost.

    So let them enjoy manufacturing war machines and be happy in killing each others.
     
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  13. methos

    methos Regular Member

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    If you think all Europeans are racist and the people from Asia are somehow not, then I recommend you to check some threads in this forum.

    Btw: The common definition of Europe exclude the Caucasus.
     
  14. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Nah, rather BMP or BMD series, or rather some of their components. Seems that maybe Ukrainians had their part in R&D of that thing. But I doubt it can effectively handle against BMP-2, BMP-3, BMD-2, BMD-3 and BMD-4. Also BTR-80A and BTR-82A are dangerous to that thing.

    Let's say Lazika is everything that Georgian industry is capable to build, at least right now.

    PS. Methos do not worry, it is a common method for all non white to call us rascists, warmongers etc. etc. etc. It is a complex hidden deep in mentality of other... hmmm I do not know how to call them, non western cultures? So calling us that way they want to break our faith in our confidence of our capabilities to realize all our goals.

    Seriously, if there is some shit hole with oil underground and they do not want to sell us that oild, then war for resources is acceptable for me (if there are no organized by state genocides), if there is a war to preserve our military, economic and political dominance, then hell yeah, I am also supporting it. Same will do every sane Indian, Chinese, Arab etc. It is just normal, a competition, a natural thing.

    And saying that being civilized is to acting as the none agressive one... yeah right, and then be surprised why the Europeans or rather white humans where first ones to at least try to explore whole world and colonize it, or even go to space. And guess what, there is nothing here in race superiority or inferiority, but in the culture, where human from being borne is teached to be competetive, to survive, to be strong... hmmm creative way to use natural instinct by culture and civilisation perhaps?

    No matters, if someone here thinks that I will not be proud of being European, a Pole, a White man, then he is very wrong, I'am damn proud, and if someone do not like our civilisation achievements or our way to solvel problems, then this is his problem.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2012
  15. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I wonder how old you are. You think being peaceful is somehow congruent with being primitive? Now I have serious doubts how much you actually understand war, and the psychology of nations. Yeah, I am very much aware that you are a 'Defence Professionals.'

    Pacifists are not weak. They are actually stronger. Look at the history of India and Pakistan. India always keeps its calm while Pakistan always makes rhetorical and jingoistic statements and in the event of war, gets badly beaten. Same thing with those years prior to the Russo-Georgian War. Georgia has been acting very aggressive till Uncle Vlad decided enough is enough.


    P.S.: If you want to change that 'Defence Professionals' to 'Defence Professional,' you should raise a request.
     
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  16. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    21, and really I do not like pacifism or being peacefull at all times. So tell if someone threatens You what you will do? Nothing? Because this is pacifism, no violence, no deffence, no actions against someone, so pacifists are weak prey for others.

    I think You do not understand. Russia for example is either not a "pacifists state", they are just smarter. If You know Your strenghts and weakness, and you know strenghts and weakness of your enemy, then You can win, and that's all about it, being smart and adaptive while being also ambitious.

    For example, why do You think US grown in to superpower? It was not because Americans were lame pacifists, but they known their strenghts and weaknesses, their were also ambitious, they have goals, and if they had opportunity to gain profits, even with violence against another country, they done that. This is smart policy.

    India is not pacifists either even if someone want to belive so, nope, if Indian goverment would have opportunity, resources, capabilities, then we all would probably seen and Indian empire in that region, that is sure, and Pakistan would be a long time non existant if such scenario would become reality.

    Face it, there is no such thing as better or worser countries, there is no nobility in policy either, the one thing that is the most important are interests of nation, country and state.
     
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  17. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Two things:
    • Just like the USSR resognised Georgia's independence, they should have also recognised South Ossetia and Abkhazia's independence.
    • Them being a pipsqueak of Uncle Sam caused them to be thrashed by Uncle Vlad.

    Tell me, what would this Lazika be useful for? I think its best use would be to suppress uprisings like in South Ossetia. It is hardly even a match for the BMP-2.
     
  18. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    I had guessed so.

    I had similar doubts when I had presented some calculations regarding sloped armour of the M1A1 Abrams, I hope you remember that? ;)


    Good points. So being pacifist has nothing to do with being primitive, because, that would imply many of the Scandinavian countries are primitive as well. I would say, comparatively, Georgia is more primitive and more aggressive, compared to, say, Norway.
     
  19. Tshering22

    Tshering22 Sikkimese Saber Senior Member

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    I would agree, but wasn't Saakaashvili idiotic to have thought he could get away by attacking Russian soldiers that were peacekeepers? WTF was he thinking challenging the Bear like that? And all that on the basis of a hope that Georgia would be helped by NATO in a war? Seriously?!

    He's lucky Russia didn't maul his country for this. Had Kremlin been now the way it was during Soviet Union, Georgia would have ceased to exist.
     
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  20. Damian

    Damian Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Nope, are You kind enough to remind me via PM?

    Some are pacifists because they are weak, they just know they are weak so the only obvious way to go is to pretend to be not dangerous for other countries strong position, if they of course do not have means to be stronger.

    Some others are pacifists because they are stupid, but the same applies for agressive people that are also in fact weak.

    But pacifism is not the way to go unless we want to have very slow progress. For example prosthetic limbs, thanks to who these usefull also for civilians tools were made? Thanks to military and experience with limbs separated in battles etc.

    But EOT, we should back to the subject of this topic.
     
  21. pack leader

    pack leader Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Good points. So being pacifist has nothing to do with being primitive, because, that would imply many of the Scandinavian countries are primitive as well. I would say, comparatively, Georgia is more primitive and more aggressive, compared to, say, Norway


    you forget one thing Scandinavia can play moralistic games and claim pacifism because they have a "sugar daddy" (USA)
    that as NATO takes all the risks and military expenditure
    in order to receive such protection they have to tow American political line and participate in American wars
    in a manner that is unacceptable to India or Israel we forge our own destiny with all the risks and rewards associated with it .
     

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