New Sukhoi base to cover south India

[p2prada]

If it is temporary dominance, then what is Combat Air Patrol?

CAP is merely one of the many means to ensure any one of the states (Superiority, Supremacy or Dominance) during war. A group of two or more aircraft conduct periodic patrols, quite like how the Army sends out border patrols.

There are other terms too, like Offensive Counter Air, which basically means bombing missions against enemy aircraft and other supporting assets on the ground.

Defensive Counter Air is where our aircraft will protect our ground based assets and troops from enemy air attacks. We have CAP in this category.

Then there is Counter Air, where our aircraft engage their aircraft in air battles. We have CAP here too.

Where does the difference lie?

Battlefields are fluid. One day you may have lost control of one sector, the other day you may have complete dominance in the same sector. I am pretty sure this is determined by the number of enemy aircraft against your own along with your gains and losses in that sector.

What is counter insurgency, COIN, asymmetric warfare, sub conventional warfare, counter terrorist warfare?

COunter INsurgency and COIN are the same. Eg: Small scale insurgencies.

Asymmetric warfare is a full scale conventional war where both sides have similar strategies and objectives. For eg: The Iraq war or even the American war of independence and India's Sepoy Mutiny, where one side is conventionally stronger than the other.

COIN on a large scale can be called sub conventional warfare. Eg: Post war Iraq and Afghanistan.

Counter terrorist warfare would mean protection of otherwise peaceful sectors against armed insurgents. Basically put a soldier with an assault rifle at a gate to a hospital in Bangalore and we have a counter-terrorist unit right there. Meaning in this case, the objective is to protect civilian targets.

This is the best I understand about the terms.

 

[p2prada]

The MKI base in TN is for a reason.

Try moving 1500Km south of TN and you will have your answer.

 

[santosh_g]

Mangekyou Sharingan !!!

yes, it's almost like using mangekyou sharingan on a kid

 

[santosh_g]

The MKI base in TN is for a reason.

Try moving 1500Km south of TN and you will have your answer.

sir , is it to keep control over the free trade region of Indian ocean?

 

[Bhadra]

Recall some US aircrafts over Mahabalipuram in TN ??

Kalpakam and other nuclear installations in TN and South !!

 

[Ray]

CAP is merely one of the many means to ensure any one of the states (Superiority, Supremacy or Dominance) during war. A group of two or more aircraft conduct periodic patrols, quite like how the Army sends out border patrols.

There are other terms too, like Offensive Counter Air, which basically means bombing missions against enemy aircraft and other supporting assets on the ground.

Defensive Counter Air is where our aircraft will protect our ground based assets and troops from enemy air attacks. We have CAP in this category.

Then there is Counter Air, where our aircraft engage their aircraft in air battles. We have CAP here too.



Battlefields are fluid. One day you may have lost control of one sector, the other day you may have complete dominance in the same sector. I am pretty sure this is determined by the number of enemy aircraft against your own along with your gains and losses in that sector.



COunter INsurgency and COIN are the same. Eg: Small scale insurgencies.

Asymmetric warfare is a full scale conventional war where both sides have similar strategies and objectives. For eg: The Iraq war or even the American war of independence and India's Sepoy Mutiny, where one side is conventionally stronger than the other.

COIN on a large scale can be called sub conventional warfare. Eg: Post war Iraq and Afghanistan.

Counter terrorist warfare would mean protection of otherwise peaceful sectors against armed insurgents. Basically put a soldier with an assault rifle at a gate to a hospital in Bangalore and we have a counter-terrorist unit right there. Meaning in this case, the objective is to protect civilian targets.

This is the best I understand about the terms.

I am aware of the terms I was merely asking the difference since there are too many terms meaning the same thing with such minor variation that its not worth the mention.

My contention is aptly brought out by @WGEwald's post above quoting IRREGULAR WARFARE (IW) CENTRE | Irregular Warfare Center of Excellence and Analytical Insights:

Today's complex conflicts may be labeled --and are often mis-labeled-- as terms for
Irregular Warfare, Unconventional Warfare, Asymmetric Warfare, Small Wars, Long
Wars, War of the Flea, Hybrid Conflicts, Hybrid Threats, etc

 

[santosh_g]

Increasing presence of the Chinese maritime forces in the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and disciplinary issues in the force are expected to be discussed by the top Navy brass in their commanders' conference starting on Tuesday.
The Navy has been concerned over the increasing presence of Chinese navy's submarines and other warships in the IOR. In a recent report submitted to the defence ministry, the Integrated Defence Staff headquarters had informed the government quoting the data by American agencies that 22 encounters of Chinese submarines have taken place outside its territorial waters in the IOR.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Air Superiority, Air Supremacy, Air Dominance? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

or could it be



or



all from

Air Superiority, Air Supremacy, Air Dominance? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Interesting to say the least.

If it is temporary dominance, then what is Combat Air Patrol?

The manner in which these new nomenclatures are coined, it become real difficult to understand what exactly they stand for. In fact, it is more for selling merchandise or acting wise.

What is counter insurgency, COIN, asymmetric warfare, sub conventional warfare, counter terrorist warfare?

Where does the difference lie?

I would be very obliged to know the differences of the issue mentioned - one on the air warfare and the other on counter insurgency.

US and indeed any military does have the habbit of creating a weird jargon for every simple task. You have the SSBN,( Ship, submersible Ballistic Nuclear), when you can easily say Ballistic Missile sub. (Yes we know a sub is a submersible ship for God's sake.). The you have the DDG ( destroyer,), the CVN ( a nuclear powered carrier), the FFG ( a frigate). Who and why would someone/anyone want to complicate a simple thing is beyond me.

But coming back to your question, CAPs are fighter patrols over a region in search of hostile AC. Does this necessarily translate to temporary air dominance? I don't think so.

In WW2, especially during battle of/for Britain, the RAF conducted sustained CAPs. Yet even for those periods, they could not manage air dominance, and Lufftwaffe nearly always got through. Then again, during the night raids on German cities by the British Bomber Command and the US 8th AF, the Lufftwaffe conducted similar CAPs, but again, they were not the dominating party.
This was repeated in Vietnam as well, where despite sustained CAPs, the Vietnamese AF were overwhelmed by the USAF.

As such. CAPs should mean air patrols conducted over an airspace to declare your presence to the friendly forces as well as to the hostiles, while at the same time attempting, to temporarily atleast, secure the air space (i.e. Temporary air dominance).

Now, the difference between the terms insurgency/COIN/asymetric warfare etc are really blurry, and are becoming even more so due to influx of technology.

For two parties involved in Classic insurgency(or terrorism)/COIN, the terms used would essentially depend on the stance of the individual forces. The party defending against insurgents would term their actions COIN/CT operation. The party conducting/supporting the insurgency would term their actions as asymetric warfare.

As such the usage of the terms would depend on the side fighting, while in reality they really mean the same thing. These words here would state the actions conducted by the forces.

This would also apply to Guerrila warfare, as in Vietnam, where one party stood ground in an attempt to dominate and the other used shoot and scoot tactics i.e. An asymetry in conducting the war. Here the term used by both sides would be asymetric war( or even guerilla war) and would indicate the conduct of the whole war, as against the ops by one party. Note that here one party is using conventional tactics, but due to the other party, the war has morphed into an asymetric war.


Sub conventional war would essentially imply a war wherein the actions of one or both the party defy the conventional norms of the period. As such it would be a superset holding within it all the unconventional warfare scenarios i.e. Insurgency/COIN, Cyberwarfare,Information warfare, the drone war in Pak/Yemen etc.

Counter terrorist war phrase is not really used, rather CT ops is used and this phrase is usually used to define a single or a set of operarions(generally isolated) rather than the whole campaign. Case in point is the Mumbai attacks. It was a terrorist ops by LET & CT ops by NSG but the actual campaign was asymetric warfare waged by ISI-LET.

 

[Ray]

US and indeed any military does have the habbit of creating a weird jargon for every simple task. You have the SSBN,( Ship, submersible Ballistic Nuclear), when you can easily say Ballistic Missile sub. (Yes we know a sub is a submersible ship for God's sake.). The you have the DDG ( destroyer,), the CVN ( a nuclear powered carrier), the FFG ( a frigate). Who and why would someone/anyone want to complicate a simple thing is beyond me.

But coming back to your question, CAPs are fighter patrols over a region in search of hostile AC. Does this necessarily translate to temporary air dominance? I don't think so.

In WW2, especially during battle of/for Britain, the RAF conducted sustained CAPs. Yet even for those periods, they could not manage air dominance, and Lufftwaffe nearly always got through. Then again, during the night raids on German cities by the British Bomber Command and the US 8th AF, the Lufftwaffe conducted similar CAPs, but again, they were not the dominating party.
This was repeated in Vietnam as well, where despite sustained CAPs, the Vietnamese AF were overwhelmed by the USAF.

As such. CAPs should mean air patrols conducted over an airspace to declare your presence to the friendly forces as well as to the hostiles, while at the same time attempting, to temporarily atleast, secure the air space (i.e. Temporary air dominance).

Now, the difference between the terms insurgency/COIN/asymetric warfare etc are really blurry, and are becoming even more so due to influx of technology.

For two parties involved in Classic insurgency(or terrorism)/COIN, the terms used would essentially depend on the stance of the individual forces. The party defending against insurgents would term their actions COIN/CT operation. The party conducting/supporting the insurgency would term their actions as asymetric warfare.

As such the usage of the terms would depend on the side fighting, while in reality they really mean the same thing. These words here would state the actions conducted by the forces.

This would also apply to Guerrila warfare, as in Vietnam, where one party stood ground in an attempt to dominate and the other used shoot and scoot tactics i.e. An asymetry in conducting the war. Here the term used by both sides would be asymetric war( or even guerilla war) and would indicate the conduct of the whole war, as against the ops by one party. Note that here one party is using conventional tactics, but due to the other party, the war has morphed into an asymetric war.


Sub conventional war would essentially imply a war wherein the actions of one or both the party defy the conventional norms of the period. As such it would be a superset holding within it all the unconventional warfare scenarios i.e. Insurgency/COIN, Cyberwarfare,Information warfare, the drone war in Pak/Yemen etc.

Counter terrorist war phrase is not really used, rather CT ops is used and this phrase is usually used to define a single or a set of operarions(generally isolated) rather than the whole campaign. Case in point is the Mumbai attacks. It was a terrorist ops by LET & CT ops by NSG but the actual campaign was asymetric warfare waged by ISI-LET.

Thanks.

I am aware of nuance of each of the terminology I mentioned except maybe the actual difference of air domination vs air superiority vs favourable air situation. In my time, it was the last two that differentiated the air situation.

I asked since I wanted to highlight that words are merely being coined by militaries to give hype and appear innovative and dynamic.

CAP is basically to ensure sanitising an area for a specific operation for a specific period of time. For (developing nation, it is an expensive proposition).

Let me give an example:

If a Task Force is crossing a canal/river, it is vulnerable during the crossing. Therefore, to ensure that the Task Force is not attacked when crossing the obstacle, where it is vulnerable since it cannot manoeuvre, a CAP is undertaken while the crossing in progress and the Task Force has gone across to the Far Bank.

As far as insurgency is concerned, and all its derivative terms, all can be explained with subtle twists of interpretation.

Take this explanation of asymmetric warfare:

Asymmetric warfare is war between belligerents whose relative military power differs significantly, or whose strategy or tactics differ significantly.
"Asymmetric warfare" can describe a conflict in which the resources of two belligerents differ in essence and in the struggle, interact and attempt to exploit each other's characteristic weaknesses. Such struggles often involve strategies and tactics of unconventional warfare, the weaker combatants attempting to use strategy to offset deficiencies in quantity or quality.[1] Such strategies may not necessarily be militarized.[2] This is in contrast to symmetric warfare, where two powers have similar military power and resources and rely on tactics that are similar overall, differing only in details and execution.
The term is frequently used to describe what is also called "guerrilla warfare", "insurgency", "terrorism", "counterinsurgency", and "counterterrorism", essentially violent conflict between a formal military and an informal, less equipped and supported, undermanned but resilient opponent.
This definition is from Tomes, Robert (Spring 2004). "Relearning Counterinsurgency Warfare". Parameters (US Army War College).
Asymmetric warfare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In short, it means Prem Singh or Nathu Singh, both are the same thing except their first names!

 

[santosh_g]

Recall some US aircrafts over Mahabalipuram in TN ??

sir , when did this happen???

 

[p2prada]

I am aware of the terms I was merely asking the difference since there are too many terms meaning the same thing with such minor variation that its not worth the mention.

My contention is aptly brought out by @WGEwald's post above quoting IRREGULAR WARFARE (IW) CENTRE | Irregular Warfare Center of Excellence and Analytical Insights:

The article WGE posted was highlighting the unnecessary need for grouping current wars under general terms like asymmetric warfare or irregular warfare because of the complexity of the changing situation in those regions.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

South India's first IAF fighter base to be operationalised on May 27

Twenty-five years after deciding to set up a base for combat planes in Thanjavur, Indian Air Force is all set to operationalise its first and only fighter base in south India on May 27.

To be inaugurated by Defence Minister A K Antony, Thanjavur will house a squadron of air-dominance Su-30 MKI fighters by 2017-18 when the required number of platforms will be available.

Till then the IAF will send detachments of Su-30MKI and other planes from other stations as the runway and other associated facilities are at place in Thanjavur.

The base is meant to provide air defence to sensitive installations on the coast, including nuclear power plants and strategic assets. It will give an additional strategic dimension to India's air power as the fighters will be able to fly up to the Andamans and Lakshdweep more frequently in demonstrating India's air dominance on the ocean.

India has contracted 272 Su-30MKI from Russia for licence produced at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Bangalore.

So far close to 170 platforms were inducted out of which Pune and Bareilly have two squadrons each while Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Jodhpur have a squadron (16-18 platforms) each.

A new Su-30 MKI squadron is coming up at Sirsa in Haryana. Moreover, Tezpur, Chabua, Jodhpur and Halwara will get a second squadron after which Su-30 MKI platforms for Thanjavur will be earmarked.

Incidentally, Antony will inaugurate the new base within a week of Chinese premier Li Keqiang's maiden India tour during which he indicated that China would continue its infrastructure modernisation in Tibet and Xinkiang, which could also be used for rapid military mobilisation in case of any need.

Thanjavur base could have been realised much earlier if the IAF did not shift its plans twice after agreeing to convert it as a fighter base way back in 1987. Existence of two runways of 1942 vintage was a determining factor.

After receiving sanction from the Defence Ministry in 1989, the IAF went back on its plan in 1993, projecting Thanjavur only as a care and maintenance hub. Within six years, the previous plan was turned upside down as the IAF pitched for a fighter base in Thanjavur in 1999, the Comptroller and Auditor General said in a report in 2010.

Taken up as a "special project", completion of the base picked up momentum only after 2003 when the Defence Ministry reviewed and sanctioned additional funding. Now the base has hangers, fuel dum, and repair depots for supporting the fighters.

South India's first IAF fighter base readies in TN

 

[SajeevJino]

South India's first IAF fighter base to be operationalised on May 27

Thanjavur will house a squadron of
air-dominance Su-30 MKI fighters by
2017-18 when the required number of
platforms will be available.

Till 2017 any Fighter or ASW being operated from Thanjavur

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

AK Antony to inaugurate Su-30 squadron at Thanjavur air base today

Defence Minister AK Antony will on Monday inaugurate an airbase here to house squadron of IAFs lethal Su-30 MKI combat aircraft, making it the first fighter squadron in south India that will help maintain vigil over the Indian Ocean region.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will base a squadron of agile Sukhoi Su-30 fighter aircraft in Thajavur, making it the first fighter squadron in Southern India, with a view to keep strategic vigil over the Indian Ocean and cover up country's southern flank up to the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, IAF officials said in Thanjavur.

The IAF will keep deploying its regular fighter and transport aircraft detachments here since the runway and other facilities are in place here now.

This would also be the first of fighter squadrons under the Southern Air Command of the IAF at any place in southern India.

The IAF has upgraded the two runways at the airbase, which has been existing for several decades and used extensively for relief operations during the tsunami and flood situations in Tamil Nadu in the recent past.

The inauguration of the base will see the landing and take off of the SU-30s but the full squadron of these aircraft including 16 to 18 jets will be completed by 2017-18 only.

The Sukhois were inducted into the IAF at Lohegaon airbase in 2002.

Thereafter, they were deployed at Bareilly, followed by Tezpur, Chhabua, Jodhpur, Bhatinda and Halwara.

Pune and Bareilly already have housed two Sukhoi squadrons each, while Tezpur, Chabua, Halwara and Jodhpur have a squadron each.

So far India has inducted over 170 of the 272 Sukhoi-30 MKIs contracted from Russia.

AK Antony to inaugurate Su-30 squadron at Thanjavur air base

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

So out of 272 Total sukhois 170 has been inducted and the rest 102 in balance.

Does anybody have any update when these 102 sukhois will be inducted?

 

[WMD]

So out of 272 Total sukhois 170 has been inducted and the rest 102 in balance.

Does anybody have any update when these 102 sukhois will be inducted?

I really doubt that count is right. I used info from SIPRI and Antony's statement in parliament to count the no. of MKIs. it came upto at least 200, that considering Antony's statement in parliament abt the no. of MKIs produced by HAL was a little bit old.

 

[bhramos]

The New Air Force Station Thanjavur

 

[TrueSpirit]

I think it is more than SL that these aircraft are being based there.

Prime motivation behind basing MKI deep south is "achieving strategic depth". No nation risks (sans Pak, though only partially) placing all their "offensive assets" at the frontiers, for they are more vulnerable to "debilitating initial strikes" at the onset of hostilities.

 

[TrueSpirit]

Asymmetric warfare is a full scale conventional war where both sides have similar strategies and objectives. For eg: The Iraq war or even the American war of independence and India's Sepoy Mutiny, where one side is conventionally stronger than the other.

There is some error, IMHO regarding Asymmetrical warfare. What is mentioned above is quite different from the actual meaning. In fact:

"Asymmetric warfare" can describe a conflict in which the resources of two belligerents differ in essence and in the struggle, interact and attempt to exploit each other's characteristic weaknesses. Such struggles often involve strategies and tactics of unconventional warfare, the weaker combatants attempting to use strategy to offset deficiencies in quantity or quality. Such strategies may not necessarily be militarized.

Symmetric warfare: Where two powers have similar military power and resources and rely on tactics that are similar overall, differing only in details and execution.

Source:Wiki

Here, "Unconventional warfare" is the keyword. So, Asymmetric warfare is a fluid, wide, all-encompassing term that alludes to a whole gamut of offensive/sabotage/psy-ops operations that can be employed for achieving one's objective & above all, it does not have to be a military operation, at all.

 

[Jagdish58]

I would be happy to see LCA MK1 & MK2 operational in sulur airbase rather than MKI's:thumb: