NATO Expansion: Threat to World Peace

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
While I don't know if NATO expansion is a threat or not,but all the countries that joined NATO did it on their own will.This is quite different from the Warsaw pact where Stalin forced the members to sign the accord.Even now majority of people in the eastern bloc want to migrate to USA(pretty much the entire world wants to do so :laugh:).Also a strange thing is the USA continues to receive a large influx of Russian immigrants.They want their countries to be friends of USA .Also if USA and its lapdogs are so bad and Russia is so good why do we Indians migrate to USA(Amreeka sorry my friends) and not our old and trusted ally,their majestic prowess,the grand protector of the weak,Russia???:hmm::hmm::hmm::troll::troll::hehe:
Hello Peter,

Though you are apparently trolling, you have raised some interesting points which require some sort of clarification and I will try to offer some pointers.

The only reason I see why any person would dream of settling in the US is because of the value of the USD. Apart from that all the rest of the reasons one may point are just trivial.

But, the point here is not about migrating to the US or any other country. You need to understand that there is a whole lot of difference between an individuals migrating reasons and the expansionist attitude of the West. For that matter, you can compare NATO with the Crusaders of yesteryears, the difference being that the Crusaders were apparently not as organized and tactical as the NATO has proven to be AND both are to be condemned.

No one is asking anybody to depend on Russia or China, or any other other country for that matter, to protect them from NATO. But, once like minded people come together they will certainly form a bloc as we can see through BRICS.

For once, I request, to come out of the mindset that those opposing NATO are pro Russia and THINK !!!
 

Broccoli

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Messages
231
Likes
109
NATO is a threat to Russia only if Russians attack any NATO states. Only reason why Russians are bitching is because they cannot bully or invade smaller states around them like they did before, now they have to deal with Uncle Sam if they try some BS move with Baltics, etc.

Some Indians here seem to have fetish towards Putler and Russia... why? I would assume it's because they feel that India is too weak politically or no one really cares what India does (take a look at Agni V, no one really cared), so they are clinging to country what is fiendly towards Indian to feel strong

I'm a Freud or what.
 
Last edited:

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
NATO is a threat to Russia only if Russians attack any NATO states. Only reason why Russians are bitching is because they cannot bully or invade smaller states around them like they did before, now they have to deal with Uncle Sam if they try some BS move with Baltics, etc.

Some Indians here seem to have fetish towards Putler and Russia... why? I would assume it's because they feel that India is too weak politically or no one really cares what India does (take a look at Agni V, no one really cared), so they are clinging to country what is fiendly towards Indian to feel strong

I'm a Freud or what.
Exactly the same reasons probably why europeans have a fetish for NATO !!! Many of your countries do not even have tanks let alone missiles, for crying out loud !!!

You don't have to worry about the threat of Russia. Just make sure that NATO does not mutually destroy you.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Only reason why Russians are bitching . . .
Nope, it is not Russia, but Rasmussen, and sycophants of US vassals states in eastern Europe.

I would assume it's because they feel that India is too weak politically or no one really cares what India does (take a look at Agni V, no one really cared), so they are clinging to country what is fiendly towards Indian to feel strong
Just know that India is an independent and sovereign country. The same cannot be said about most European countries.

I'm a Freud or what.
No, you are not Freud. You are Broccoli.
 

pmaitra

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
33,262
Likes
19,594
Earlier:

Christians flee Syria's Kessab, Twitter cries atrocities, Armenia accuses Turkey

[TWEET]450639036018077697[/TWEET]
[TWEET]448182080560574464[/TWEET]
[TWEET]448268066829262848[/TWEET]

Now, good news:

Syrian forces expel rebels from Christian town of Kessab on Turkish border

The Armenian government called on the UN to protect Kessab, evoked the Armenian genocide of 1915, and accused Turkey of allowing jihadists to cross the border to attack Kessab, blaming it for the civilian deaths. Moscow also joined calls at the UNSC to evaluate the situation and offer solutions on how to protect the some 2,000 Christian Armenians that inhabit Kessab.

Ankara slammed any accusations of its complicity and condemned the allegations as "confrontational political propaganda," although Turkey downed a Syrian military jet on March 23, just ahead of an escalation in tensions between Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) and the Syrian government. Turkey claimed the jet was violating its airspace.

In response, Damascus accused Ankara of "blatant aggression," saying the fighter jet had been over Syria. The Syrian pilot said a Turkish aircraft fired a missile at him while he was pursuing jihadist militants within Syrian territories, SANA news agency reported.
[HR][/HR]

This is why NATO is a threat to world peace. NATO members sponsor terrorism and coup d'etats and no one can counter them.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
NATO expansion is necessary from the Western Nations' strategic perspective.

It flows out of the Wolfowich Doctrine.



Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to generate global power.
and that is presented in a more civilised way thus:

The Eastern Partnership (EaP) is an initiative of the European Union governing its relationship with the post-Soviet states of Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova, and Ukraine, intended to provide a venue for discussions of trade, economic strategy, travel agreements, and other issues between the EU and its eastern neighbours. The project was initiated by Poland and a subsequent proposal was prepared in co-operation with Sweden.

The aim is to bring into the the EU these countries and increasing political, economic and cultural links to do so.

The fundamentals that underpins this alliance, if you will, as per the stated objective are - a shared commitment to international law and fundamental values - democracy, the rule of law and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms - and to the market economy, sustainable development and good governance
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
NATO may appear as a threat to world peace, but then if one looks at it from the NATO standpoint, they are consolidating to bring World Peace.

Perceptions and Perspectives!

One man's food is another man's poison.
 

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
NATO is a threat to Russia only if Russians attack any NATO states. Only reason why Russians are bitching is because they cannot bully or invade smaller states around them like they did before, now they have to deal with Uncle Sam if they try some BS move with Baltics, etc.

Some Indians here seem to have fetish towards Putler and Russia... why? I would assume it's because they feel that India is too weak politically or no one really cares what India does (take a look at Agni V, no one really cared), so they are clinging to country what is fiendly towards Indian to feel strong

I'm a Freud or what.
Actually, when the geopolitics is observed from neutral zones, what you state may not be what they feel so.

Peace is when there is no turmoil and all are used to the prevalent conditions.

It is only when there is turbulence, does one not finds oneself uncomfortable.

The turmoil in Eastern Europe does make one queasy.

Why so, you may well ask.

In recent times, ever since Bush's regime change demand and the clarion call - either you are with us or against us - and the launching of the crusade to bring Freedom and Democracy to the oppressed world became the war cry and which was to be worn as a badge of faith and morality, the neutral world got uncomfortable.

A wee bit in the beginning.

And when the hoax of WMD became the cause célèbre that was touted from the rooftops proved to be a falsehood, even those who believe it initially, it proved that, notwithstanding the high morality that the US and West preached and preaches, it could stoop to lowest level of morality & fairplay to achieve in a Machiavellian way to dominate the world and dictate terms for others'on their existence . This awfully low-down behaviour change the discomfort into an unbearable loss in faith. ,

In short, the US and the West lost their credibility and was taken to be those with feet of clay.

Therefore, the American and the Western world audience may act indignant at the manner how the issues are panning out in Ukraine and may trot out whatever they feel in the name of morality and freedom, none believes that. They know what is the real motive.

In case you are ignorant of the Motive of the West, why don't you chat up with Cheney or Wolfowich. They will enlighten you since they wrote the Doctrine.

I have appended it in the earlier post above my last post.

Imagine the wonderful breath of fresh air of Freedom and Democracy the US left for the Iraqis to wallow in! Right now, its Burn Baby Burn is what the Iraqis are experiencing. Some Freedom and Democracy indeed!

On whether some care for India or not, I assure you the US and the West, at least their Govts, spends sleepless nights thinking about India. Its market is very alluring for the petty bourgeoisie who run your world and you require to fight China's ,march to world dominance thus unseating you with the last Asian, and more importantly, Indians.

As far as what you claim, go tell it to the Marines - British term connoting that the person addressed is not to be believed,

We have no fetish for Russians. Those days are over.

We are not involved even remotely as to what happen to Ukraine or Eastern Europe. Hence, we are sanitised from the partisan attitude that you wear on your sleeves like a fetish orgasm.
 
Last edited:

Ray

The Chairman
Professional
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
43,132
Likes
23,835
However, the 19th century and today differ in the way that globalization has empowered nonstate actors and individuals to become centers of power competing against nation-states in their own right. For example, Hezbollah, a terrorist organization and nonstate actor, has an arsenal of rockets and missiles that "dwarfs the inventory of many nation-states," according to former U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert Gates.[3] Bands of Somali pirates have turned piracy into a multi-million-dollar business. According to the BBC, the pirates earned $146 million from ransom payments in 2011.[4] This is equivalent to the annual nominal gross domestic product of Kiribati, an island nation-state in the Pacific.[5] Many of these nonstate actors and terrorist groups operate on the periphery of Europe, and some operate inside Europe itself. They can directly or indirectly affect U.S. security.
If this is the rationale, then the US' base in Deigo Gracia is ideal.

It can also base in Mauritius

That will take care of the Somali pirates.

For the Hezboillah, don't withdraw from Iraq. It is close to the action than bases in Europe. They surely forget the Logistic Nightmare that they had when the moved forces to take on Iraq!

Having troops in Iraq with be a hop step and jump anywhere the Hezbollah operates.

Europe is too far and mustering from there will be a logistic nightmare as before.
 

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
To mock Putin's pride and test his paranoia is folly

Why does foreign policy default to stupid? From the moment that we heard of the Malaysian airliner shot down over Ukraine it was clearly an accident. Whoever's finger was on the trigger, the tragedy cannot have been meant. This was not another 9/11. It was cock-up, not conspiracy.

Yet foreign policy craves conspiracy. Vladimir Putin blamed the Ukrainian government. Ukraine blamed the pro-Russian rebels. America's U.N. ambassador, Samantha Power, said that Moscow's responsibility cannot be "ruled out." London howled blue murder all round. There had been blood. There had to be blame.

Dangerous moments
What happened was a ghastly mess in bandit country, meriting the swiftest possible restoration of dignity for the victims. Yet before even the bodies had been collected, politicians vied with each other for tightening sanctions, ending trade, expelling oligarchs and freezing bank accounts. Soon they were fighting like rats in a sack. Barack Obama was a wimp. François Hollande was an appeaser. David Cameron was a hypocrite. The philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy hurled down thunderbolts on everyone, "This is the spirit of Munich — appeasement. And it is a disgrace."

These moments are dangerous. In 1914, the Austrian government declared the madcap shooting of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand a "Serbian government plot" and went to war. In 1983, the Russians shot down a Korean airliner that had strayed over Siberia, killing all 269 people on board. It was clearly an accident, the fighter pilots' ground control being drunk and panicking. This intelligence was suppressed and the incident exploited to precipitate one of the most scary confrontations of the cold war.

Five years later it was America's turn, when a U.S. cruiser shot down an Iranian civilian Airbus A300 in Iranian airspace. The U.S. navy wriggled and excused itself, while Iran seized on it as a crime of wanton aggression, aided by America rewarding its sailors with medals. Washington refused to admit legal liability, and took eight years to pay $62m in compensation to bereaved families.


What is terrifying is how such incidents are distorted to suit the interests of revenge. Clearly Putin has been reckless along Russia's western frontier, backing Ukrainian rebels with enough weaponry to make accidents more likely to happen. Yet the idea that he willed the tragedy is as absurd as that Konstantin Chernenko willed the Korean massacre or Ronald Reagan the downing of an Iranian plane.

Putin must have been as appalled as anyone at the fate of the airliner. It also sabotaged his delicate power play in the region and threw him on the defensive. Intelligence from Moscow suggests that he is bruised and angry, retreating into his circle of hawkish advisers and their nationalist rhetoric. This is the moment Confucius advises us to give the enemy a bridge over which to retreat. Instead, the West's hawks are having a field day, deriding Putin's paranoia as if to goad him into doing something worse.

Visiting Russia in the 1990s after its humiliation in the Cold War, I found it a sad and dangerous place, not unlike Germany after its defeat in 1918. Yet it was as if no western diplomat had read the Treaty of Versailles, or noted Keynes' warning of the consequences. Much was done to build economic ties between west and east. Energy, investment and contacts flowed back and forth. Western companies cavorted with oligarchs and kleptocrats. Money stolen from the Russian people gushed into the wildcat banks of Cyprus and London and into the Swiss and British property markets. London must rank as the greatest receiver of stolen goods of all time.

So far, so good. But at the same time, NATO and the EU rolled forward over Eastern Europe to the Russian frontier, as if aiming its guns at the gates of Moscow to taunt Russia for its defeat. NATO apologists argued that any country, be it Latvia, Georgia or Ukraine, should be free to join whichever club it liked (albeit objecting when Crimeans voted the other way). Yet only fools can ignore the fact of Russian pride and fear of encirclement. The post-Cold War provocation of Putin was good public relations, but it was rotten history.

We are told that east Ukraine is one of many potential explosions that Putin could trigger along the Russian border, from the Baltic to the Caucasus. Everywhere are Russian minorities (or majorities) that could clash with local non-Russians. Europe's leaders have no conceivable interest in stirring up such conflicts — and yet that was precisely what they sought to do in Georgia and Ukraine.


The West's hypocrisy
For Britain — or America — to try and lay down the law along Russia's extensive borders is barking mad; to use a tragic plane accident as casus belli equally so. It is nothing but breast-beating machismo. Yet again we lurch towards the woolly-headed daftness of economic sanctions. It is beyond hypocrisy for the West to demand sanctions against Moscow when it happily buys Russian gas and sells Russia guns, ships, Knightsbridge flats and places at Eton. These double-standards are of our hand. According to the commons committee on arms exports, Britain currently sells arms worth £12bn to 27 countries listed by the Foreign Office as "of human rights concern." It cannot enhance world peace to make Europe's energy more expensive, Russian loans harder to get or Harrods less accessible to "Putin's cronies." Putin could not care less.

Economic sanctions are to modern statecraft what mounted lancers were to war in the trenches: magnificent but useless. Their continued deployment defies study after study showing them as cosmetic, cruel or counterproductive. Yet how many times has Cameron emerged from his Cobra bunker to threaten "tighter economic sanctions" against some rogue regime, to absolutely no effect? The rhetoric is always the same, to "send a message", show resolve, impose a price, not to let "wrongdoing go unpunished." It is as if Britain were some superannuated school prefect.

The emergence in Moscow in the 1990s of a tough, philistine nationalist like Putin was a near certainty. He may be a nasty piece of work but he runs what it is still a powerful nation. Mocking his pride and testing his paranoia is for fools. The one country that knows this and can keep a sane head on its shoulders is run by Angela Merkel. Thank goodness for Germany. — © Guardian Newspapers Limited, 2014

To mock Putin's pride and test his paranoia is folly - The Hindu
 

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
Ukraine Crisis Reminds Americans Why NATO Should Not Expand: Not To Ukraine, Georgia, Or Anyone Else

The bitter conflict in Ukraine drags on. Russia appears to have decided against trying to conquer its neighbor. However, Moscow continues to destabilize Kiev by supporting Russian separatists. NATO remains divided on how to respond.

Most Europeans have little stomach for confronting Russia. Economic ties with Moscow are profitable, there is no treaty obligation to Ukraine, and no alliance member desires war. So Washington has taken the lead against Moscow even though America has little at stake in Russia's misbehavior.

In fact, the crisis has generated a spate of U.S. proposals for military action. Some analysts and politicians advocate direct support for Ukraine and other potentially embattled states. Also popular are proposals to expand NATO.

For instance, ever belligerent Sen. John McCain urged adding Ukraine to the "transatlantic" alliance. Former UN ambassador John Bolton suggested putting "both Georgia and Ukraine on a clear path to NATO membership." Former Defense Secretary Robert Gates similarly called for making NATO association agreements with Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova. Other proposed candidates for the alliance include Armenia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Finland, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro, and Sweden.

Efforts to expand NATO are strikingly misguided. Traditional military alliances were created to advance a nation's security. They were not intended to act as clubs for international business, associations for shared values, or tools for political integration. Military alliances were supposed to prevent and win wars. During the Cold War the U.S. established the alliance to protect the war-ravaged European states from America's hegemonic adversary, the Soviet Union, and its satellite-allies.

The end of the Cold War eliminated the reason for creating NATO.
America's dangerous global enemy had disappeared while Washington's prosperous and populous allies had recovered economically and developed internationally. The U.S. no longer needed to protect Europe.

However, alliance advocates acted like nothing had changed and proposed new justifications for the old organization, such as promoting student exchanges, fighting the drug trade, and encouraging environmental protection. None of these dubious suggestions won much support, however, so member governments turned NATO into a mechanism to integrate Central and Eastern European states. This task should have been left to the European Union, but Washington wanted to "lead" even when America was not directly concerned. The alliance expanded up to the borders of Russia, the shrunken successor state to the Soviet Union.

Included as new members were countries in the Baltic region, Eastern Europe, and the Balkans, areas that never had been and almost certainly never will be important for U.S. security. Prior to the collapse of the U.S.S.R. no one would have imagined America offering security guarantees to nations which did not matter for America's defense.

In fact, alliance officials acted as if the organization was an international gentleman's club. Expansion advocates downplayed the fact that the U.S. would be putting its full military faith and credit on the line. No one explained why America, finding peace within its grasp after decades of dangerous Cold War uncertainties, should toss away the fruits of victory by adding anew to its military responsibilities.

NATO turned into a dole for indolent rich countries. Wealthy European nations could have become partners with America in promoting global security; instead, they became U.S. welfare clients. After Moscow's collapse the Europeans steadily reduced their military outlays. Even the newer members closest to Russia put little effort into augmenting their armed forces. Today the continent's biggest military players, France and Great Britain, also are cutting back. When intervening against military pipsqueak Libya, European governments ran out of missiles and had to beg Washington for resupply

None of this might seem to matter when NATO is bombing nations with little ability fight back, such as Serbia and Libya. However, the Ukraine crisis reminded everyone that the alliance might be called upon to fulfill its responsibilities against Russia, with a recovering conventional capability and significant nuclear force. Several of the newest members now are screaming for America to "reassure" them by establishing bases and deploying troops.

This ludicrous situation demonstrates the folly of NATO expansion. How did promising to go to war with Russia over Estonia and Latvia make Americans safer? How would moving America's overstretched armed forces to countries such as Lithuania and Poland make the U.S. more secure?

Today all these countries are members of the alliance, the result of a foolish decision that cannot be easily undone. This mistake should not be compounded by bringing in additional members with even less strategic value—at the very moment that there is talk of augmenting U.S. forces in Asia, confronting China over its aggressive territorial claims, returning to Iraq to fight Islamic extremists, ousting the Syrian regime, remaining in Afghanistan to protect the embattled government, and bombing a recalcitrant Iran.

The list of potential members suggests strategic madness in Washington. For instance, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, and Montenegro are tiny states in the Balkans. They never have mattered and never will matter for U.S. security. A willingness to provide handfuls of soldiers for America's wars of choice—Macedonians manned the gate at Camp Eggers in Kabul when I visited a couple years ago—does not justify guaranteeing their defense against Russia, which, in fact, has never threatened them.

Kosovo is even worse. This disputed state is the product of NATO's first aggressive war, the 1989 campaign to dismember Serbia, which had neither attacked nor threatened a member of the alliance. On the West's watch the newly victorious ethnic Albanian guerrillas proceeded to ethnically cleanse a couple hundred thousand Serbs, Roma, Jews, and non-Albanian Muslims and set up what even some Europeans characterized as a gangster state. Tens of thousands of ethnic Serbs remain trapped in Kosovo, denied the right to self-determination granted Kosovars, Slovenes, Macedonians, Croats, Montenegrins, and Bosnians. Defending Pristina never has been and never will be a good use of U.S. troops.

Finland and Sweden are perfectly pleasant nations which followed independent, neutralist policies during the Cold War and face no significant threats today. Their security policy succeeded during the depths of the Cold War. Why should America attempt to fix what ain't broken by taking on their defense? Isn't there at least one nation Washington need not protect?

Armenia, a former republic in the Soviet Union, is the most distant country now proposed for NATO membership. It's impossible to concoct even a vaguely plausible argument that this nation, locked in a bitter territorial dispute with neighboring Azerbaijan, has the slightest relevance to the security of America or any other member of the alliance. Moscow hasn't been threatening to invade and if it did it isn't obvious how America—since no one seriously believes that German, Italian, Dutch, or Latvian troops would jet off to the Caucasus in the event of a crisis—would actually defend Armenia. Drop in the 82nd Airborne? Bomb St. Petersburg? Threaten nuclear Armageddon?

Then there are Moldova, Georgia, and Ukraine. They are the worst of the potential new members. Attempting to defend them would dramatically degrade U.S. defense since all three have territorial disputes with nuclear-armed Russia that have triggered or could trigger war.

Moldova is a small nation nestled between Romania and Ukraine. A piece of Moldova, Transnistria, broke away with Moscow's support. Chisinau is in difficult circumstances, but not one warranting American military involvement. The U.S. simply has nothing at stake in this ongoing confrontation involving Moscow.

Georgia long has wanted to join NATO. And no wonder. After escaping the Soviet Union the Georgian people suffered from political instability and international irrationality. Georgia's independence triggered another round of secession, of Abkhazia and South Ossetia backed by Russia. Tbilisi sacrificed the lives of its soldiers in America's Afghan and Iraqi misadventures hoping that providing cannon fodder for Washington would convince U.S. politicians to risk the lives of American military personnel in any Georgian war against Russia.

The Bush administration, with notoriously bad judgment, was willing to do so, and therefore advocated admission of Tbilisi to NATO. However, the Europeans were not so foolish and blocked the move. For which we can all be thankful. Tbilisi's volatile president, Mikhail Saakashvili, foolishly started the 2008 Russo-Georgian war by bombarding Russian military forces located in South Ossetia, apparently in the expectation of U.S. military support. That was a step too far even for the myopic Bush administration.

Georgia illustrated how alliances risk passing decisions for war and peace to small, unstable client states. Whatever America's modest economic and energy interests in the region, none warrant confronting Russia on its border, a region treated as a vital interest by Moscow. Certainly nothing justifies backing a state which recklessly provoked Moscow to arms and attempted to drag Washington into war.

The only less appropriate NATO member would be Ukraine. Until recently, at least, most Ukrainians thought the same. While inclined toward the West economically, Ukrainians saw no reason to treat as a military enemy Russia, with which cultural, economic, and historical ties remained strong. While Ukraine's status is largely of theoretical interest to America and economic value to Europe, Russia views its connection to the former Soviet republic to be of critical security importance.

With Kiev consumed by internal conflict aided and abetted by Moscow, bringing the former into the transatlantic alliance would create a dangerous game of military chicken with nuclear-armed Russia. Since Moscow's interests are far greater, Russia is unlikely to back down whether under Vladimir Putin or a future president. After preserving the peace with the Soviet Union throughout the entire Cold War, Washington should not risk conflict with Russia today over far lesser stakes.

Allies are good for America if they advance U.S. security. All of the countries proposed for NATO membership today would be defense liabilities. The organization's raison d'etre was to block Soviet domination of Eurasia. That possibility no longer exists. Washington should turn Europe's security back to Europe. There's no reason for Americans to threaten war over such tiny irrelevancies as Montenegro and Kosovo, distant obscurities as Armenia, and conflict magnets as Georgia and Ukraine.

The ongoing strife in Ukraine is a crime by Moscow and tragedy for Kiev. It's also a warning for America. NATO is a military alliance, not a social club. Sometimes countries are called to make good their promises to go to war. Governments shouldn't make security guarantees if they aren't prepared to back up their word.

Expanding NATO would make the U.S. less safe. Instead, America should be shrinking its alliance commitments.

Ukraine Crisis Reminds Americans Why NATO Should Not Expand: Not To Ukraine, Georgia, Or Anyone Else - Forbes
 

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Re: Civil war in Ukraine

Security against whom ?? Russia of course !!! your inferiority complex has grown so much that one side you make sweeping statements that Russia is just a shadow of it's past glory...and on the other side you are shitting in your pants about that shadow so much that you want to atleast have the notion of security by installing those bmds'. At the same time NATO and US are marketing your paranoia as that will keep their $ mine functioning.
Of course there is a problem here, Russian goverment is aiming nukes at nations that don't even have nuclear weapons. Simply because Russian goverment knows, that these NATO members, thanks to collective defence NATO provides, are relatively well defended against conventional attack.

While the rest of your post is just typical idiotic teenage bitching of person that don't have any idea about security issues, military issues, and finally, geopolitical issues.

You want me to believe that US is going to install only defensive BMD system.....
So think you damn moron, are there any other kind of BMD systems? All BMD systems developed by USA are relatively simple in design AA and AM missiles with kinetic energy warheads, it's even hard to call these wahreads as technically these missiles don't have any warheads.

USA never designed anything else in terms of ABM, other projected designs like railgun for ABM defences also uses only kinetic energy, and there are lasers.

These are purely defensive designs by pure logic.

You can't attack anyone with these systems, unless he attacks you.

You are trully dumber than I tought.

You guys have to decide who is the bitch and who is the dog. For us, it is quite obvious who is getting laid
Maybe because you was allways treated like that, also by Russians, reminds you latest deal for your tanks ammunition, when Russians demanded for obsolete APFSDS ammo price 300% larger than market prices for a 3BM42 ammo? Jesus Christ, even in NATO nobody pay such price for much more modern ammo.

[Edited.]

It's you Indians that all the time comply about your relationship with Russia, Russians don't give you full TOT for weapons, Russians demands prices for weapons higher than normal market prices, Russians provides weapons that by your own Indian sources does not meet your requirements?

I don't know, maybe you people are dumb or have schizofrenia.

You guys have to decide who is the bitch and who is the dog. For us, it is quite obvious who is getting laid
And why we should disband NATO? Because you say so? It's effective military alliance that provides collective security to it's members.

It's better to have friends than have none, even if these relationships are not allways perfect.

Oh wait I get it, we should disband NATO so some 3rd world shitholes could do what they want? For example make wars here and there without any consequences that perhaps the strongest military alliance will took notice and eventually make intervention so peace can be brought back?

Well at least it's good to know that some people affraid us, and from where this bitching about NATO comes from. Well I will have a laugh as hell when eventually in near future new NATO members might appear.
 
Last edited:

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
Re: Civil war in Ukraine

Of course there is a problem here, Russian goverment is aiming nukes at nations that don't even have nuclear weapons. Simply because Russian goverment knows, that these NATO members, thanks to collective defence NATO provides, are relatively well defended against conventional attack.
Proof ??? Paranoia at it's highest.

While the rest of your post is just typical idiotic teenage bitching of person that don't have any idea about security issues, military issues, and finally, geopolitical issues.
You just worry about whether Russia is going to bomb you or not.

So think you damn moron, are there any other kind of BMD systems? All BMD systems developed by USA are relatively simple in design AA and AM missiles with kinetic energy warheads, it's even hard to call these wahreads as technically these missiles don't have any warheads.
Missile defence is required for strategic stability....not for intimidation. If America wants strategic stability, it can install any number of BMD within it's territory....not in some other country which is bordering its arch rival.

But first, what do you know of missile defence, it's purpose strategically, implications etc...? Before making sweeping statements that I don't know anything, pray enlighten us with your vast knowledge...

USA never designed anything else in terms of ABM, other projected designs like railgun for ABM defences also uses only kinetic energy, and there are lasers.
So? What relevance does this statement have here?

These are purely defensive designs by pure logic.
To talk about geopolitics, you should know that logic will not suffice.


You can't attack anyone with these systems, unless he attacks you.
Your statement is intrinsically wrong.

You are trully dumber than I tought.
So says the guy who cries wolf :thumb:

Maybe because you was allways treated like that, also by Russians, reminds you latest deal for your tanks ammunition, when Russians demanded for obsolete APFSDS ammo price 300% larger than market prices for a 3BM42 ammo? Jesus Christ, even in NATO nobody pay such price for much more modern ammo.
So quick to jump the gun and divert the topic......marked for report.

[Edited.]

It's you Indians that all the time comply about your relationship with Russia, Russians don't give you full TOT for weapons, Russians demands prices for weapons higher than normal market prices, Russians provides weapons that by your own Indian sources does not meet your requirements?
Comply? Seriously, I give you another chance to at least edit your post and make it more meaningful.

I don't know, maybe you people are dumb or have schizofrenia.
Nothing better expected of you.

And why we should disband NATO? Because you say so? It's effective military alliance that provides collective security to it's members.
Wow.....more at the receiving end....;)

It's better to have friends than have none, even if these relationships are not allways perfect.
You were crying something about Russia above....

Oh wait I get it, we should disband NATO so some 3rd world shitholes could do what they want? For example make wars here and there without any consequences that perhaps the strongest military alliance will took notice and eventually make intervention so peace can be brought back?
These 3rd world countries that you speak of so insultingly, ARE THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER COUNTRIES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. AND THEY ARE RELATIVELY PEACEFUL compared to your country or Ukraine where you dread an onslaught by the Bear day and night.

Well at least it's good to know that some people affraid us, and from where this bitching about NATO comes from. Well I will have a laugh as hell when eventually in near future new NATO members might appear.
You know what, people who are schizophrenic have tendency to first fear about unfounded impending dangers. Then slowly their symptoms change and they lose rationality start behaving erratically and insulting one and all. Please have a checkup.
 

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Re: Civil war in Ukraine

Proof ??? Paranoia at it's highest.
Russia has stationed Iskander missiles in western region: reports | Reuters
Moscow confirms deployment of Iskander missiles on NATO borders — RT News

Look, even Russia Today confirms there are Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad. You know where Kaliningrad oblast is and who have borders with it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaliningrad_Oblast

You just worry about whether Russia is going to bomb you or not.
And you would not be worry if nukes would be aimed at you and you don't have anything to counteract this? Are you suicidal?

Missile defence is required for strategic stability....not for intimidation. If America wants strategic stability, it can install any number of BMD within it's territory....not in some other country which is bordering its arch rival.

But first, what do you know of missile defence, it's purpose strategically, implications etc...? Before making sweeping statements that I don't know anything, pray enlighten us with your vast knowledge...
What for the sake of sanity is intimidating in missile defence?!

And USA and NATO members can install any kind of weapon systems be it offensive or defensive anywhere they want on their own territory, if Poland want's to share BMD systems with USA also on it's own territory, Russian goverment can go and ---- itself with it's own paranoia. They think what we will do offensively with these anti-missiles? Attack "peacefull" Russian ICBM's flying towards our cities with "peacefull" nukes if shit will hit the fan?

Russian goverment will bitch anyway whatever it's neighbours will do. Polish Army have more modern tanks? Russian or Bellarusian goverments bitch that we will do "Blitzkrieg" towards their capitals, Poland have more modern artillery? They bitch we will shell their capitals, Poland have more modern AAD and ABM systems, we will shoot down their "peafull" fighters, bombers and missiles!

So? What relevance does this statement have here?
That these are purely defensive systems what is not understanable here for you?

Rest is not even worth my comment...
 
Last edited:

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
This is an appropriate thread for this discussion. So I am continuing it here.

Of course there is a problem here, Russian goverment is aiming nukes at nations that don't even have nuclear weapons. Simply because Russian goverment knows, that these NATO members, thanks to collective defence NATO provides, are relatively well defended against conventional attack.

While the rest of your post is just typical idiotic teenage bitching of person that don't have any idea about security issues, military issues, and finally, geopolitical issues.



So think you damn moron, are there any other kind of BMD systems? All BMD systems developed by USA are relatively simple in design AA and AM missiles with kinetic energy warheads, it's even hard to call these wahreads as technically these missiles don't have any warheads.

USA never designed anything else in terms of ABM, other projected designs like railgun for ABM defences also uses only kinetic energy, and there are lasers.

These are purely defensive designs by pure logic.

You can't attack anyone with these systems, unless he attacks you.

You are trully dumber than I tought.



Maybe because you was allways treated like that, also by Russians, reminds you latest deal for your tanks ammunition, when Russians demanded for obsolete APFSDS ammo price 300% larger than market prices for a 3BM42 ammo? Jesus Christ, even in NATO nobody pay such price for much more modern ammo.

So who was ----ed by who?

It's you Indians that all the time comply about your relationship with Russia, Russians don't give you full TOT for weapons, Russians demands prices for weapons higher than normal market prices, Russians provides weapons that by your own Indian sources does not meet your requirements?

I don't know, maybe you people are dumb or have schizofrenia.



And why we should disband NATO? Because you say so? It's effective military alliance that provides collective security to it's members.

It's better to have friends than have none, even if these relationships are not allways perfect.

Oh wait I get it, we should disband NATO so some 3rd world shitholes could do what they want? For example make wars here and there without any consequences that perhaps the strongest military alliance will took notice and eventually make intervention so peace can be brought back?

Well at least it's good to know that some people affraid us, and from where this bitching about NATO comes from. Well I will have a laugh as hell when eventually in near future new NATO members might appear.
Proof ??? Paranoia at it's highest.



You just worry about whether Russia is going to bomb you or not.



Missile defence is required for strategic stability....not for intimidation. If America wants strategic stability, it can install any number of BMD within it's territory....not in some other country which is bordering its arch rival.

But first, what do you know of missile defence, it's purpose strategically, implications etc...? Before making sweeping statements that I don't know anything, pray enlighten us with your vast knowledge...



So? What relevance does this statement have here?


To talk about geopolitics, you should know that logic will not suffice.



Your statement is intrinsically wrong.



So says the guy who cries wolf :thumb:



So quick to jump the gun and divert the topic......marked for report.



You should know, as you are at the receiving end....:taunt:



Comply? Seriously, I give you another chance to at least edit your post and make it more meaningful.



Nothing better expected of you.



Wow.....more at the receiving end....;)


You were crying something about Russia above....



These 3rd world countries that you speak of so insultingly, ARE THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER COUNTRIES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. AND THEY ARE RELATIVELY PEACEFUL compared to your country or Ukraine where you dread an onslaught by the Bear day and night.



You know what, people who are schizophrenic have tendency to first fear about unfounded impending dangers. Then slowly their symptoms change and they lose rationality start behaving erratically and insulting one and all. Please have a checkup.
 

happy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,370
Likes
1,454
Russia has stationed Iskander missiles in western region: reports | Reuters
Moscow confirms deployment of Iskander missiles on NATO borders — RT News

Look, even Russia Today confirms there are Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad. You know where Kaliningrad oblast is and who have borders with it?

Kaliningrad Oblast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do you know when your articles in Reuters and RT are posted? Just check those dates....then you will know who started all this madness.

And you would not be worry if nukes would be aimed at you and you don't have anything to counteract this? Are you suicidal?
See..there lies your paranoia...if you think Russia would benefit by nuking it's neighbors....i don't know who is a greater fool....you for thinking like that or myself for trying to enlighten you.

What for the sake of sanity is intimidating in missile defence?!

And USA and NATO members can install any kind of weapon systems be it offensive or defensive anywhere they want on their own territory, if Poland want's to share BMD systems with USA also on it's own territory, Russian goverment can go and ---- itself with it's own paranoia. They think what we will do offensively with these anti-missiles? Attack "peacefull" Russian ICBM's flying towards our cities with "peacefull" nukes if shit will hit the fan?
Missile defence in itself is not intimidating.....but, when you know that your capability to counter your opponent is diminished then the race for equilibrium starts. Not that you don't know it...but because you make sweeping insulting statements.

Russian goverment will bitch anyway whatever it's neighbours will do.
Is that why you are trying to prove that you can 'b....' more than them?

Polish Army have more modern tanks? Russian or Bellarusian goverments bitch that we will do "Blitzkrieg" towards their capitals, Poland have more modern artillery? They bitch we will shell their capitals, Poland have more modern AAD and ABM systems, we will shoot down their "peafull" fighters, bombers and missiles!
Whats with all the expletives....have you lost phrases to explain your stand ?? Pls maintain better language as it characterises your personality.

That these are purely defensive systems what is not understanable here for you?

Rest is not even worth my comment...
Don't take the pains to comment....especially, if you can't speak without using expletives....and for God's sake, spare me your paranoia.
 

Damian

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Do you know when your articles in Reuters and RT are posted? Just check those dates....then you will know who started all this madness.
Russians started this madness, it's simple. Up to this day we don't have any functional ABM installations, yet Russians still have nukes near our borders. So you know what? ---- it, we will have our ABM installations, and Russia can't do anything about it. It's our territory, our alliance, our decision, not their or yours.

See..there lies your paranoia...if you think Russia would benefit by nuking it's neighbors....i don't know who is a greater fool....you for thinking like that or myself for trying to enlighten you.
Russia use nukes, gas, oil, it's military to control it's neighbours, bully them to benefit. When it's neighbours start to behave independently by changing source of gas and oil, improving it's military defences, then Kremlin starts to panic.

But guess what, all these nations here, don't want to be inside Russian influance sphere, we want to be in NATO, and this is our decision not your or Russia's, so stop saying us what is good for us or not.

Missile defence in itself is not intimidating.....but, when you know that your capability to counter your opponent is diminished then the race for equilibrium starts. Not that you don't know it...but because you make sweeping insulting statements.
The ABM system is incapable to stop full scale ICBM attack, everyone knows that. But ABM system is capable to stop small scale attacks, that's the point. Russians don't like the concept because they won't be able to bully us.

Is that why you are trying to prove that you can 'b....' more than them?
No, that they can kiss their asses, we will do what we wish to do on our territory, our land. We are sovereign and if we decide we want to be in NATO, EU, we want close and strong alliance with USA this is our decision, and nobody, including you or Russian goverment, won't will tell us what we should do.

Whats with all the expletives....have you lost phrases to explain your stand ?? Pls maintain better language as it characterises your personality.
You don't deserve good language. Only people that use logic, their brain deserve for that, not people like you, not tolerating that nations can have a very different view on their affairs than you.

Look at all these nations from former Soviet influance zone, all of these nations wanted to be in NATO, to be under US protectorate and be as far from Russia as possible.

Don't take the pains to comment....especially, if you can't speak without using expletives....and for God's sake, spare me your paranoia.
Oh, look, how touchy he is... sissy.

You don't need to talk with me, and I don't feel any need to talk with you, or respect someone who inslut my state, my country, my nation and our neighbours that stand against Russia, or our allies.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top