MRCA news and dicussions Part III

[Armand2REP]

Desmond Tutu and influential Swedish church leaders call Gripen jobs "empty words" and demand cancellation, refund

It is disgraceful how the armaments lobby abused the goodwill created out of the many years of solidarity against the racist apartheid government to sell the Gripen fighter aircraft. This part of the whole arms deal accounts for more than half of the total cost. Unfortunately the South African government succumbed to economically absurd arguments and pressure from European governments that the arms deal would create over 65000 jobs, and thus stimulate the economy. These promises have so far turned out to be mainly empty words.

The arms deal was pursued by the armaments industry without regard to the long-term negative impact on our societies and political life. But there is still time to change and to learn from previous mistakes. We reiterate the objections we made in 1999. No stone shall remain unturned to reveal how public resources have been misused. Errors must be corrected and, as modern democracies, our countries must have the courage to thoroughly investigate what really happened.

Of the 28 Gripen fighter aircraft, only seven have been delivered to South Africa. The absurdity of these contracts is confirmed by the reality that South Africa now even seems to lack the capacity to properly maintain the procured jet fighters. We now call for the cancellation of the remaining contracts, and for a refund of expenditures already paid.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/...ce/Declare-war-on-poverty-with-alms--not-arms

 

[Agantrope]

Look at the delays of the scoprene project.


Anyway how far from short list are we?And how do I post a picture to the site,link doesnt look good.

Scorpene delya is all because of the MoD's wrong approach with the sub-building. French have nothing to do with that.

 

[nandu]

Scorpene delya is all because of the MoD's wrong approach with the sub-building. French have nothing to do with that.

Please dont forget about french dily delaying and arms twisting .

 

[Armand2REP]

Please dont forget about french dily delaying and arms twisting .

I think you mean Indian dilly dallying and lack of forsight.

 

[StealthSniper]

The more I study the Eurofighter, the more I love the plane. I hope it passed all tests and with the possibility to revise the Indian Fighter Bids it might be cheaper than initally quoted. I know the Eurofighter is expensive, but you get what you pay for and with the upgrades that it's going to get, it is the most advanced and deadliest fighter in the competition. Here is a video to entertain your minds:








Here's a video of the Eurofighter vs the fastest car in the world:

 

[Armand2REP]

^^ Cute video, but Eurofighter is the worst strike fighter of the competition - MiG-35 maybe.

 

[StealthSniper]

With the Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 upgrades it will be fully capable of Air to Ground duties and I don't see anything that says it can't do what a Rafale or F-18 can.


Tranche 2

* Block 8 : New mission computers required for the integration of future weapons such as Meteor, Storm Shadow and Taurus. (Differences in the build to Tranche 1 related to changes in production technology or obsolescence).
* Block 10 : Software: EOC 1 (advanced multi role step 1) AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM, IRIS-T digital. A2G: GBU-24, GPS-controlled weapons, ALARM, Paveway III & IV, Rafael Litening III
* Block 15 : Software: EOC 2 (advanced multi role step 2) A2A Meteor A2G: TAURUS, Storm Shadow, Brimstone [167]


# Long-range AAMs, initially the excellent US "AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range AAM (AMRAAM)" but later the Matra BAE Dynamics "Meteor Beyond-Visual-Range AAM (BVRAAM)", now under development and expected to be introduced into service in 2008. Meteor is expected to improve on AMRAAM in seeker intelligence, as well as missile performance and range.

# Short-range AAMs, such as the AIM-9L Sidewinder, the Matra BAE Dynamics ASRAAM, or BGT IRIS-T.

# Conventional "dumb" bombs; BL-755 cluster bombs; or Paveway laser-guided bombs and a target designator pod, such as the GEC-Marconi TIALD.

# CRV-7 70 millimeter unguided rocket pods; Brimstone anti-armor missiles, carried in triplets on multiple ejector racks; Kongsberg Penguin or Boeing Harpoon anti-ship missiles; and the Matra BAE Dynamics Storm Shadow or LFK Taurus stand-off cruise missiles.

# Various types of reconnaissance pods, with the user air forces now considering different solutions.

# Up to three external fuel tanks, including a 1,500 liter (396 US gallon) tank on the centerline, and a 1,000 liter (264 US gallon) tank under each wing.

 

[Armand2REP]

With the Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 upgrades it will be fully capable of Air to Ground duties and I don't see anything that says it can't do what a Rafale or F-18 can.

It doesn't matter what it will supposedly be able to do. When IAF pilots go for weapons trials they will test as is, which isn't much for Eurofighter. The most advanced version are 4 recently acquired Eurofighters of Germany but they don't even have laser designators for the GBU-48 until 2012. When Indian pilots launch 6 AASM at once from Rafale they laugh at Eurofighter.

 

[StealthSniper]

It doesn't matter what it will supposedly be able to do. When IAF pilots go for weapons trials they will test as is, which isn't much for Eurofighter. The most advanced version are 4 recently acquired Eurofighters of Germany but they don't even have laser designators for the GBU-48 until 2012. When Indian pilots launch 6 AASM at once from Rafale they laugh at Eurofighter.

Not all the fighters are ready for the Indian test trials. The Mig-35 is not in production, and the Gripen NG wasn't ready yet so they had to bring the Gripen D instead. Also Tranche 2 is already in production and UK and Saudi Arabia are getting Tranche 2 fighters with Air to Ground capability. It's not a dream that Eurofighter is going to get Air to Ground capability, it's already planned and is already being inducted. Also the Rafale and Super Hornet might have the edge right now in Air to Ground, but I am pretty sure that indian pilots laughed when the Rafale and SH both got their butts handed to them by the Eurofighter in Air to Air engagements.


Remember the Rafale (in it's current config) is also under the gun in the Indian evaluations because of the underpowered engines and problems it might have at Leh. I hope it did well but everyone knows that the Rafale could be more powerful.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not all the fighters are ready for the Indian test trials. The Mig-35 is not in production, and the Gripen NG wasn't ready yet so they had to bring the Gripen D instead. Also Tranche 2 is already in production and UK and Saudi Arabia are getting Tranche 2 fighters with Air to Ground capability. It's not a dream that Eurofighter is going to get Air to Ground capability, it's already planned and is already being inducted.

The technical evaluation is only going to evaluate what is in front of IAF officers. Not a future capability that may not come with future budget cuts. The addition of a LITENING pod and ancient Paveway bombs isn't going to impress IAF. They already have it. The half dozen simultaneous launch of the most advanced bomb on earth will.

Also the Rafale and Super Hornet might have the edge right now in Air to Ground, but I am pretty sure that indian pilots laughed when the Rafale and SH both got their butts handed to them by the Eurofighter in Air to Air engagements.

Last I heard, it was Rafale that kicked the butts of Hornet and Eurofighter in A2A.

Remember the Rafale (in it's current config) is also under the gun in the Indian evaluations because of the underpowered engines and problems it might have at Leh. I hope it did well but everyone knows that the Rafale could be more powerful.

Rafale has the second best T/W next to Eurofighter and the best thrust acceleration. Needless to say I'm not worried about engine performance. India already has their air dominance fighter MKI. What is needed is a true omni-role plane that can fill all the fighter gaps and that is Rafale.

 

[nandu]

Armand sir, whatever french do is right,whatever they built is best and rest of the world is worst!Thats what your opinion.you are too biased in your opinion always.

 

[Armand2REP]

Armand sir, whatever french do is right,whatever they built is best and rest of the world is worst!Thats what your opinion.you are too biased in your opinion always.

You want to take up the fight and say Eurofighter is a better striker than Rafale? Go ahead, it don't make it true.

 

[blade]

The most vital edge that typhoon enjoys over its peers is its great agility.In an attacking role typhoon has the best chance to survive. This platform is not as matured as SH & will take some more time to grow to its full potential. It has a tremendous MLU prospect. As far as A2G capability is concerned it will not be too far fetched when matured and almost over exploited platforms such as SH will find it difficult to match with typhoon which is undergoing constant evolution.

 

[Armand2REP]

The most vital edge that typhoon enjoys over its peers is its great agility

Its agility is cut off by safety software.

In an attacking role typhoon has the best chance to survive.

Rafale has the better defencive suite (SPECTRA) and the most extensive/up-to-date threat library. Rafale has a .1-.2 less RCS. It has a far lower IR signature including the engines. No mate, Rafale has the best chance to survive.

This platform is not as matured as SH & will take some more time to grow to its full potential. It has a tremendous MLU prospect. As far as A2G capability is concerned it will not be too far fetched when matured and almost over exploited platforms such as SH will find it difficult to match with typhoon which is undergoing constant evolution.

The mutured Eurofighter you want is scheduled for the 2015-16 time frame. As UK cuts its defence budget for the SDR, that programme is going to be derailed. Shadow DefMin doesn't find "fast jets" a priority, and make no doubt the Tories are going to win.

 

[blade]

1. Is there any acceptance to such a theory that safety software cut off the agility factor on relative terms with respect to its peers. Is typhoon the only fighter jet to have those safety softwares (iff atall its a technical truth that implementation of such a software may have an adverse effect on the agility of a fighter jet? )

2. The issues like RCS & IR signature are highly classified secretes which hardly any one around the world has any clue about. As i have mentioned in my earlier posts that this MRCA competition serves a great purpose to INDIA as during this process we get the opportunity to compare the best 4.5 gen fighters. We should remember till day there has been only one jet (4.5) which seem to have placed its superiority over F -16 beyond any doubt and that is TYPHOON.I do agree that even on one to one air battle SU 30 MKI has come out victorious against F -16 but Typhoon has knocked down 3 F- 16 simultaneously in simulation which is not a matter of joke.Instantly what we get from this
simulated air fight is the fact that Typhoon is an extremely agile fighter thought at the cost of maneuverability.

3. I am only bothered of the prospects of Typhoon with respect to India. If Typhoon is selected india will get an access to unprecedented amount of technology. It is immaterial whether Uk cuts its role in this project or not but India certainly have enough moolah to do further research for future up gradation. Only point which as per me goes against it is the involvement of too many nations into this project which means the secrets are more likely to get spilled.

 

[Armand2REP]

1. Is there any acceptance to such a theory that safety software cut off the agility factor on relative terms with respect to its peers. Is typhoon the only fighter jet to have those safety softwares (iff atall its a technical truth that implementation of such a software may have an adverse effect on the agility of a fighter jet? )

Yes,

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-10925872-safety-alert-over-eurofighter.do

2. The issues like RCS & IR signature are highly classified secretes which hardly any one around the world has any clue about. As i have mentioned in my earlier posts that this MRCA competition serves a great purpose to INDIA as during this process we get the opportunity to compare the best 4.5 gen fighters.

You want an IR siggy comparison... here you go.


Rafale is the clear winner. As for RCS, Rafale is smaller and was also designed with better LO technology so it obviously has the advantage.

We should remember till day there has been only one jet (4.5) which seem to have placed its superiority over F -16 beyond any doubt and that is TYPHOON.

Rafale beat F-16's ass up and down at Red Flag... want proof? Start the video at 4:40 and watch F-16s get spanked.

I do agree that even on one to one air battle SU 30 MKI has come out victorious against F -16 but Typhoon has knocked down 3 F- 16 simultaneously in simulation which is not a matter of joke.Instantly what we get from this simulated air fight is the fact that Typhoon is an extremely agile fighter thought at the cost of maneuverability.

Rafale not only smacks F-16's around, they also whooped Eurofighter at DPAC... 7:1

3. I am only bothered of the prospects of Typhoon with respect to India. If Typhoon is selected india will get an access to unprecedented amount of technology. It is immaterial whether Uk cuts its role in this project or not but India certainly have enough moolah to do further research for future up gradation. Only point which as per me goes against it is the involvement of too many nations into this project which means the secrets are more likely to get spilled.

Hate to break it to you, but what happens in the Eurofighter project effects the future outcomes of it. If UK ends its orders, as the Shadow DefMin has hinted, it will not recieve the appropriate funding or impetus to go forward with 3B. So you better care if you want Eurofighter.

 

[blade]

DEAr sir thought i have'nt yet read your post but it truely looks like an interesting one. AHH i am very happy now and u have made my night i swear. Now i will enjoy reading the post thoroughly and enjoyyyyyy this highly informative post. THANK YOUUUU

 

[Armand2REP]

DEAr sir thought i have'nt yet read your post but it truely looks like an interesting one. AHH i am very happy now and u have made my night i swear. Now i will enjoy reading the post thoroughly and enjoyyyyyy this highly informative post. THANK YOUUUU

Your very welcome... >>>>>>

 

[slenke]

Desmond Tutu and influential Swedish church leaders call Gripen jobs "empty words" and demand cancellation, refund

It is disgraceful how the armaments lobby abused the goodwill created out of the many years of solidarity against the racist apartheid government to sell the Gripen fighter aircraft. This part of the whole arms deal accounts for more than half of the total cost. Unfortunately the South African government succumbed to economically absurd arguments and pressure from European governments that the arms deal would create over 65000 jobs, and thus stimulate the economy. These promises have so far turned out to be mainly empty words.

The arms deal was pursued by the armaments industry without regard to the long-term negative impact on our societies and political life. But there is still time to change and to learn from previous mistakes. We reiterate the objections we made in 1999. No stone shall remain unturned to reveal how public resources have been misused. Errors must be corrected and, as modern democracies, our countries must have the courage to thoroughly investigate what really happened.

Of the 28 Gripen fighter aircraft, only seven have been delivered to South Africa. The absurdity of these contracts is confirmed by the reality that South Africa now even seems to lack the capacity to properly maintain the procured jet fighters. We now call for the cancellation of the remaining contracts, and for a refund of expenditures already paid.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/opinion/...ce/Declare-war-on-poverty-with-alms--not-arms

Oh please. You know very damn well this has nothing to do with the Gripens being "expensive" or other. South Africa is, as you know, is shoving their own country down the drains.. BTW, I read an interesting article on Reuters about France and Germany practicly blackmailing Greece into buying their military hardware, including Rafales. Now that's foul play..

 

[Armand2REP]

Oh please. You know very damn well this has nothing to do with the Gripens being "expensive" or other. South Africa is, as you know, is shoving their own country down the drains.. BTW, I read an interesting article on Reuters about France and Germany practicly blackmailing Greece into buying their military hardware, including Rafales. Now that's foul play..

No, this one has to do with Saab failing to provide the offset jobs that were promised and powerful forces in both SA and Sweden calling for the end of this bad deal.

BTW, I read an interesting acrticle from Reuters that said "No one is saying 'Buy our warships or we won't bail you out'. We already came to a funding agreement and Greece has yet to sign any more deals. I guess thats foul play when we already gave the support yet have no papers signed?