Moscow-Islamabad partnership not against Delhi

[Neo]

@Neo


Seriously, I think you pull up these figures from you know where!!

Pakistan annual budget

Budget
$6.98 billion (2013–14) (ranked 25th)

Of this 6.98 Billion you are spending 11 Billion for defence...
Nice math!!!

Hey did Zaid Hamid (Topi Be Upon Him) make the budget for Pakistan!!!

and in other news

Pakistan is expanding its defense budget by 11 percent to $7 billion in FY2014-2015.
Still short of 4 Billion to reach your figure of 11 Billion.

Go through some older threads genius where $11 billion is explained and duscussed with @ladder and some other members.

 

[Neo]

Trolls have arrived.
There goes another thread down the drain.

 

[Otm Shank2]

niether 6 or 11 billion seem like much when its a country of 200 mil + people and several parts of pakistan needs the military to police it

 

[Neo]

Russia's defence pact with Pak shows Modi govt's diplomacy failure

This would go down as one of the worst strategic and diplomatic failures of India in recent times. Russia has stepped up its rapprochement with India's arch-rival Pakistan just as India is getting closer to the United States.

The unthinkable happened on 20 November when Russia-- India's tried and trusted friend, ally and strategic partner – signed a never-before defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan. The defence pact scripts a new history as Russia agreed to cooperate with Pakistan in combating terrorism and offered advanced counter-terrorism training to Pakistan.

The landmark Russia-Pakistan defence pact was inked during Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu's visit to Pakistan, the first visit by a Russian Defence Minister to Pakistan in 45 years. The last visit to Pakistan was made by Soviet Union's defence minister Andrey Grechko.

The Russian move comes just about three weeks before Russian President Vladimir Putin visits India for an annual summit between India and Russia, an exercise going on since 2000.

Russia was the first country with which India has an institutionalized mechanism of holding annual summits, signifying the extremely close political relations between the two sides. The first such Indo-Russian annual summit was held in 2000.

Till date only Japan has been added to this extremely select list of countries with which India has been having an institutionalized mechanism of holding annual summits. This explains the importance of Indo-Russian bilateral relations.

The increasing bonhomie between Russia and Pakistan marks a stunning change in the rapidly changing and evolving international statecraft. It lives up to the old adage: There are no permanent friends or permanent enemies in politics; there are only permanent interests.

The Russians had already warned of decaying ties with India way back in June when they lifted their embargo on arms supplies to Pakistan and began negotiations for sale of combat helicopters to Pakistan. Despite India's strong protests the Russians are moving ahead with the proposed chopper sales to Pakistan and at least 20 attack helicopters are all set to be sold by the Russians to the Pakistanis.

Moscow has rubbed it further for the Indians and declared its intentions by sending its defence minister to Pakistan and by inking a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.

Russians have been miffed with New Delhi for several years. It started in 2012 when Russia lost contract for several big-ticket Indian defence deals and the situation exacerbated in 2013. By 2014 the Americans had usurped the number one position as India's top arms exporter – a position that the Russians had traditionally enjoyed for decades.

Now let's go back to the point made upfront: how the growing Russia-Pakistan synergy is a failure of Indian diplomacy in recent years.

The failure started with the previous UPA government. The failure of the present government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi is that it has failed to stem the rot for the past six months it has been in office.

While Russian deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin has traveled to India since the Modi government took over, no senior political functionary of the Modi government has visited Russia.

However, all is still not lost. Signing of a defence pact between Russia and Pakistan does not mean that Russia has signed on the death warrants of Indo-Russian strategic partnership.

Similarly, Russia may have lost out on Indian arms deals worth several billion dollars, it cannot compensate for it by selling a few combat helicopters to Pakistan for a few scores of million dollars.

True, it is Russia's way of warning India against New Delhi's dalliance with the Americans. But the Russians also have genuine strategic interests in stepping up their bilateral cooperation with Pakistan, particularly in the sphere of security.

Russia had to open out to Pakistan in view of the upcoming thinning of American and NATO troops in Afghanistan. A lawless Afghanistan falling back into the clutches of Taliban is as hair-raising a nightmare for the Russian security managers as it is for the Indians. Pakistan is a crucial and unique stake-holder for Russia in this context.

The Indians will have to be genuinely concerned about the impact of the Russia-Pakistan defence agreement only if the Russians end up with harming Indian interests. But this is highly improbable. Russians are no fools. They won't sacrifice a carefully-nurtured relationship with a major power like India for the sake of improving relations with a country like Pakistan.

India has erred big time in allowing its relations with Russia to sour to this extent that Russia has inked a defence pact with Pakistan. The talk of Russia selling combat helicopters to Pakistan was a mere talk. But signing of a defence pact between Russia and Pakistan is a serious business which is not conducive either to India's national interests or to Indo-Russian friendship.

PM Modi will have to intervene in a big way to save the floundering Indo-Russian friendship. The problem needs to be fixed as early as possible. Modi's upcoming summit with Putin in New Delhi offers this opportunity.

The writer is Firstpost Consulting Editor and a strategic analyst who tweets @Kishkindha.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/impli...n-1816957.htm

 

[Neo]

@pmaitra please delete duplicate post #26.
Sorry for the inconvenience.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Why is Putin coming to india? Useless waste of time for india.

 

[Neo]

Why is Putin coming to india? Useless waste of time for india.

Why is it useless Sir? India and Russia are time tested friends and there's still a lot of cooperation in big tag defence deals like the Pak-Fa. No western country will provide more tot to India on such flexible terms as Russia have.
Alliances are never based on emotions but with pragmatism and mutual trust. When India started flirting with.the west, she should have known that Russia might start selling to Pakistan. Its a two way road so why ruin a six decade old friendship over a minor shift in foreign policy?

 

[hit&run]

Russia's defence pact with Pak shows Modi govt's diplomacy failure

This would go down as one of the worst strategic and diplomatic failures of India in recent times. Russia has stepped up its rapprochement with India's arch-rival Pakistan just as India is getting closer to the United States.

The unthinkable happened on 20 November when Russia-- India's tried and trusted friend, ally and strategic partner – signed a never-before defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan. The defence pact scripts a new history as Russia agreed to cooperate with Pakistan in combating terrorism and offered advanced counter-terrorism training to Pakistan.

The landmark Russia-Pakistan defence pact was inked during Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu's visit to Pakistan, the first visit by a Russian Defence Minister to Pakistan in 45 years. The last visit to Pakistan was made by Soviet Union's defence minister Andrey Grechko.

The Russian move comes just about three weeks before Russian President Vladimir Putin visits India for an annual summit between India and Russia, an exercise going on since 2000.

Russia was the first country with which India has an institutionalized mechanism of holding annual summits, signifying the extremely close political relations between the two sides. The first such Indo-Russian annual summit was held in 2000.

Till date only Japan has been added to this extremely select list of countries with which India has been having an institutionalized mechanism of holding annual summits. This explains the importance of Indo-Russian bilateral relations.

The increasing bonhomie between Russia and Pakistan marks a stunning change in the rapidly changing and evolving international statecraft. It lives up to the old adage: There are no permanent friends or permanent enemies in politics; there are only permanent interests.

The Russians had already warned of decaying ties with India way back in June when they lifted their embargo on arms supplies to Pakistan and began negotiations for sale of combat helicopters to Pakistan. Despite India's strong protests the Russians are moving ahead with the proposed chopper sales to Pakistan and at least 20 attack helicopters are all set to be sold by the Russians to the Pakistanis.

Moscow has rubbed it further for the Indians and declared its intentions by sending its defence minister to Pakistan and by inking a defence cooperation agreement with Pakistan.

Russians have been miffed with New Delhi for several years. It started in 2012 when Russia lost contract for several big-ticket Indian defence deals and the situation exacerbated in 2013. By 2014 the Americans had usurped the number one position as India's top arms exporter – a position that the Russians had traditionally enjoyed for decades.

Now let's go back to the point made upfront: how the growing Russia-Pakistan synergy is a failure of Indian diplomacy in recent years.

The failure started with the previous UPA government. The failure of the present government led by Prime Minister Narendra Modi is that it has failed to stem the rot for the past six months it has been in office.

While Russian deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin has traveled to India since the Modi government took over, no senior political functionary of the Modi government has visited Russia.

However, all is still not lost. Signing of a defence pact between Russia and Pakistan does not mean that Russia has signed on the death warrants of Indo-Russian strategic partnership.

Similarly, Russia may have lost out on Indian arms deals worth several billion dollars, it cannot compensate for it by selling a few combat helicopters to Pakistan for a few scores of million dollars.

True, it is Russia's way of warning India against New Delhi's dalliance with the Americans. But the Russians also have genuine strategic interests in stepping up their bilateral cooperation with Pakistan, particularly in the sphere of security.

Russia had to open out to Pakistan in view of the upcoming thinning of American and NATO troops in Afghanistan. A lawless Afghanistan falling back into the clutches of Taliban is as hair-raising a nightmare for the Russian security managers as it is for the Indians. Pakistan is a crucial and unique stake-holder for Russia in this context.

The Indians will have to be genuinely concerned about the impact of the Russia-Pakistan defence agreement only if the Russians end up with harming Indian interests. But this is highly improbable. Russians are no fools. They won't sacrifice a carefully-nurtured relationship with a major power like India for the sake of improving relations with a country like Pakistan.

India has erred big time in allowing its relations with Russia to sour to this extent that Russia has inked a defence pact with Pakistan. The talk of Russia selling combat helicopters to Pakistan was a mere talk. But signing of a defence pact between Russia and Pakistan is a serious business which is not conducive either to India's national interests or to Indo-Russian friendship.

PM Modi will have to intervene in a big way to save the floundering Indo-Russian friendship. The problem needs to be fixed as early as possible. Modi's upcoming summit with Putin in New Delhi offers this opportunity.

The writer is Firstpost Consulting Editor and a strategic analyst who tweets @Kishkindha.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/impli...n-1816957.htm

Diplomatic failure ? Russia is a free country, if we can seek friendship with USA they can do the same with Pakistan.

It is poor of the author not to see that we have no new orders for Russian military industry complex. The order book is quite empty, only some old agreement signed are on-line or in limbo.

In an open tender system environment Russian weapons were not up to mark of the sophistication we required, heck we even rejected two American jets including one better than what Pakistan is operating.

Russian weapons may not be even up to mark for Pakistani liking, the same way they had to endure Chinese weapons, but over clever Pakistanis with economy in shambles think they can buy Russian favors on geo political issues and may earn some leverages with them.

In this whole exercise the author and over clever Pakistanis have failed to see that Russia is making contacts with Pakistanis because Russians wanted it that way and at the same time it will be Russia dictating the narrative. Pakistan may benefit from this whole diplomatic hard work by pledging its depleting resources but it will never be a zero sum game for India either.

Russia is India's friend from whom we have been buying weapons by spending white liquid money, Pakistan is free to do the same.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Why is it useless Sir? India and Russia are time tested friends and there's still a lot of cooperation in big tag defence deals like the Pak-Fa. No western country will provide more tot to India on such flexible terms as Russia have.
Alliances are never based on emotions but with pragmatism and mutual trust. When India started flirting with.the west, she should have known that Russia might start selling to Pakistan. Its a two way road so why ruin a six decade old friendship over a minor shift in foreign policy?

He use to trade oil for indian dollars one with his trade in rubles it is not something india would
Be interested in? His trips have never had any military deals involved. F-35 was offered to india.
Technology transfer I s a big unknown with Russia, it does not Involve Pakistan pact or emotion . I am sure he Wants sco expansion . But his trips always come after defence deals with Pakistan last time rd-93 Engine. I have a feeling he feels india is being lost to the west and many moves he is making
Seem to be out of desperation. Russia will possibly lose the European energy market to
USA with the sanctions and many things Putin is doing seem to be backfiring Putin has said
In the past Cold War is over hinting Russian view is changing. Russia has always sold
To Pakistan in the past via china and Ukraine. But it seems Putin looking east policy is
Mostly china? Russia when having to compete on a level playing field has failed not
Just in military but other sectors like energy . On this trip I wonder what Putin has to
Offer india?

 

[sgarg]

The system was evaluated by Kiyani years ago and if Russia has any intention to sell it to Pakistan, they will extend the production line or offer the S-400.

Russians do not sell for free like the Chinese.

I welcome Pakistan buying from Russia. Please do. I want to see Russian arms in Pakistani service.

 

[prohumanity]

There is lot of fluffy talk about sales to Paki....the only concrete thing is M-35 helicopter offer which is mainly for anti terrorist operation. The other rumors are to bargain with India ..bigger defense deals as Russia knows that it can make 10 to 12 times more profit in India than Paki and would not like to lose its biggest customer who pays in hard cash. At present, Russian economy is in bad shape....every penny of profit counts so Paki needs to come up with hard cash.. Count your change ...Russia badly needs it.
Without big weapons sale to China and India, Russian economy can go in deep recession...even with these sales, it is predicted to grow about 1% for next 20 years. So, Paki don't expect any favors or free bees like you got from USA for 6 decades ...Russia can only deal in hard cash. Wait and watch !
Russia needs to get some really big deals on weapons orders and nuclear power planst from India , to save its faltering economy. A small amount of Paki money can not save Russian economy.
Let me ask you this...Will any sane person would like to lose its biggest client for a newbee who has less than 10% of money than its biggest ,old client?

 

[Neo]

Russians do not sell for free like the Chinese.

I welcome Pakistan buying from Russia. Please do. I want to see Russian arms in Pakistani service.

Pakistan will never be a great importer of russian weapons. Though it's nice to have options. What is important is that we can replace or upgrade some chinese components with Russian technology, have greater access to avionics and weapons from them for our JF-17 program and cooperate with them to upgrade our missile program.
And for a zillionth time, China does not give free weapons to Pakistan so stop repeating your bashing mantra. No free lunches there.

 

[Neo]

There is lot of fluffy talk about sales to Paki....the only concrete thing is M-35 helicopter offer which is mainly for anti terrorist operation. The other rumors are to bargain with India ..bigger defense deals as Russia knows that it can make 10 to 12 times more profit in India than Paki and would not like to lose its biggest customer who pays in hard cash. At present, Russian economy is in bad shape....every penny of profit counts so Paki needs to come up with hard cash.. Count your change ...Russia badly needs it.
Without big weapons sale to China and India, Russian economy can go in deep recession...even with these sales, it is predicted to grow about 1% for next 20 years. So, Paki don't expect any favors or free bees like you got from USA for 6 decades ...Russia can only deal in hard cash. Wait and watch !
Russia needs to get some really big deals on weapons orders and nuclear power planst from India , to save its faltering economy. A small amount of Paki money can not save Russian economy.
Let me ask you this...Will any sane person would like to lose its biggest client for a newbee who has less than 10% of money than its biggest ,old client?

The problem is not Russia but the Indian mindset. You want to have it all and own the world. Blackmail is a cold war tactic and it doesn't work anymore. Russian economy may be in trouble but she has China on her side and there is still a lot of hi tech stuff and technology to sell to save russian industry. For decades India has relied on cheap imports and technology from Russia and if you think that you can put all your eggs in western baskets then you are wrong. The west is expensive, have political implications and India is cash strapped and will remain like that for another couple of years. You need Russia as much as shr needs you. Hurting Russia therefor will hurt your own industry and economy.

 

[sgarg]

Pakistan will never be a great importer of russian weapons. Though it's nice to have options. What is important is that we can replace or upgrade some chinese components with Russian technology, have greater access to avionics and weapons from them for our JF-17 program and cooperate with them to upgrade our missile program.
And for a zillionth time, China does not give free weapons to Pakistan so stop repeating your bashing mantra. No free lunches there.

It is depressing to hear the truth from a Pakistani. CHINA IS A SUPERPOWER that has the BEST WEAPONS in the World. You are talking of REPLACING CHINESE WITH RUSSIA. What happened to you man?? Are you thinking straight??

Please give me figures of how much you have paid for JF-17 and F-7P and F-7PG. I want figures. I do not want denials.

 

[sgarg]

The problem is not Russia but the Indian mindset. You want to have it all and own the world. Blackmail is a cold war tactic and it doesn't work anymore. Russian economy may be in trouble but she has China on her side and there is still a lot of hi tech stuff and technology to sell to save russian industry. For decades India has relied on cheap imports and technology from Russia and if you think that you can put all your eggs in western baskets then you are wrong. The west is expensive, have political implications and India is cash strapped and will remain like that for another couple of years. You need Russia as much as shr needs you. Hurting Russia therefor will hurt your own industry and economy.

India has always paid for its imports. No weapon in India landed for free. Russia realized after breakup of USSR how badly it needed India for the survival of its MIC.

The price of weapons India paid was a factor of underpricing by USSR. That underpricing went away when USSR broken down. Russia is charging top dollar for everything today.

You are in lecturing mode on Russia which is very amusing. Pakistan does not and cannot dictate India-Russia relations. As I said, I welcome your military deal with Russia. I welcome you buying weapons from Russia. We realize that any country can buy anything from anywhere. Pakistan can buy its weapons anywhere. This is none of India's worries.

India's worry is to build its own arms. Indian industry was weak in the past. That is no longer the case. India has emerged as a big exporter of engineering goods due to massive improvement in local engineering industry.

 

[Neo]

It is depressing to hear the truth from a Pakistani. CHINA IS A SUPERPOWER that has the BEST WEAPONS in the World. You are talking of REPLACING CHINESE WITH RUSSIA. What happened to you man?? Are you thinking straight??

Please give me figures of how much you have paid for JF-17 and F-7P and F-7PG. I want figures. I do not want denials.

Cheap sarcasm or sarcasm at all is lost on me so don't even bother and read my post again. I wrote "it's nice to have options" and we might look for some Russian components for upgrades. It doesn't mean Chinese weapons are inferior. We will be adding on instead of replacing Chinese systems. China will remain our main supplier for another few decades.

 

[Pandora]

Cheap sarcasm or sarcasm at all is lost on me so don't even bother and read my post again. I wrote "it's nice to have options" and we might look for some Russian components for upgrades. It doesn't mean Chinese weapons are inferior. We will be adding on instead of replacing Chinese systems. China will remain our main supplier for another few decades.

Well you have to accept that Chinese gave you all of their toys either free or in soft loans with heavily subsidized rates,same with US they provided you either free in the name of WOT or in the name of regional balance of power they provided you used frigates etc etc.

 

[Neo]

India has always paid for its imports. No weapon in India landed for free. Russia realized after breakup of USSR how badly it needed India for the survival of its MIC.

The price of weapons India paid was a factor of underpricing by USSR. That underpricing went away when USSR broken down. Russia is charging top dollar for everything today.

You are in lecturing mode on Russia which is very amusing. Pakistan does not and cannot dictate India-Russia relations. As I said, I welcome your military deal with Russia. I welcome you buying weapons from Russia. We realize that any country can buy anything from anywhere. Pakistan can buy its weapons anywhere. This is none of India's worries.

India's worry is to build its own arms. Indian industry was weak in the past. That is no longer the case. India has emerged as a big exporter of engineering goods due to massive improvement in local engineering industry.

FyI In 1953 when Pakistan became a US ally we signed the CENTO and SEATO agreement and opened our bases for USAF and US Navy. There was no Marshall Plan for Pakistan like Europe and Japan but heavy military support to keep the Soviets away from the warm waters of the Arabian Sea. After quitting the military agreements with the US in the aftermath of two wars with India, we suffered heavy restrictions and embargoes till the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and Pakistan once again became a major US ally and the EDA program became available.
So whatever weapons we got, we either paid with money or with logistic support to US armed forces. The whole fleet of Mirages, F-16's and F-7's is paid for. Under the EDA we recieved some P-3C and C-130's free of charge but we had to pay for refurbishments and modifications. No free lunch there. Pakistan does not get ftee weapons from any other country than the USA which again is very limited.

I am not lecturing you on Russia, just trying to explain that a military agreement between Russia and Pakistan is symbolic and if India distances itself away from Russia, it will be your loss. Pakistan and Russia will never be allies...not in foreseeable future.

 

[Neo]

Well you have to accept that Chinese gave you all of their toys either free or in soft loans with heavily subsidized rates,same with US they provided you either free in the name of WOT or in the name of regional balance of power they provided you used frigates etc etc.

Soft loan is not free, it still adds up to foreign dept.
As I stated before, India purchased cheap and subsidized weapons from russia under a barter program till the early ninetees. Indian rice, wheat, sugar and other exports were bartered for weapons for decades. Does it mean you got them free??

USA gave a very little under EDA. And whatever we got, we had to pay for the upgrades as they came from reserves.

 

[sorcerer]

@Neo
Pakistan Expands Defense Budget | The Diplomat

Pakistan recently announced its defense budget for fiscal year (FY) 2014-2015, which will be 11 percent larger than last year's defense budget. The total defense budget for the coming year will stand at $7 billion. According to Defense News, the bulk of the budget, $3.4 billion, will head to Pakistan's Army, its largest and most regularly used branch military, and the remainder will go to the Air Force and the Navy with roughly a 2:1 ratio ($1.5 billion for the Air Force and $725 million for the Navy). Furthermore, the Inter-Services Organizations (including the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate) and the Defense Production Establishment have been allocated $1.5 billion each. The defense budget accounts for 18 percent of Pakistan's national budget at 2.36 percent of national GDP.

I prefer to believe in what the analysts say than what you explain to @ladder elsewhere!