More trouble in MMRCA deal

[Snuggy321]

So please compare rafale and tejas mk-2 in the following aspects,
1.Top speed,
2.thrust to weight ratio,
3.percentage of composies,
4.radar range,
5.Max possible long range BVR on each,

And post how tejas mk-2 is inferior to rafale in all the above aspects, remember the engine tech on Rafale is not more modern than the Ge-414 INS 6 contracted for tejas mk-2.Range and payload are higher in RAFALE because it has two engines and extra amount of fuel along with more empty weight. So leaving the range and payload aside tejas mk-2 is as modern as RAFALE within it's operating range, with a price tag one third of the RAFALE(if you use full life cycle costs for comparison).

When RAFALE induction matures in IAF , J-20 and J-31 will also be in mature stage of induction in PLAF.In such a scenario the 20 billion dolar price tag for a simple 4.5th gen fighter like RAFALE is a huge cost proposition.It will only lead to Russians asking a far higher price for PAKFA compared to RAFALE.

The fact that you are trying to compare the specs of a non existing paper plane with the best 4.5 gen fighter which is already in use and has seen combat shows your lack of understanding.

 

[sathya]

.It will only lead to Russians asking a far higher price for PAKFA compared to RAFALE.

yeah scary..

 

[ersakthivel]

The fact that you are trying to compare the specs of a non existing paper plane with the best 4.5 gen fighter which is already in use and has seen combat shows your lack of understanding.

The reason i asked was there is not much of a difference in performance of these two platforms that warrant 20 billion Indian tax payer money.With no orders and production lines about to stop Dassault is acting like a as if RAFALE is a moonraker that cannot be made here at HAL. IF tejas mk-1 can be made by HAL,tejas mk-2 can very well be made here.In the same way all the composite tech and meant for RAFALE will be perfected with finessing the tejas mk-1 production.

It is strange that after negotiating for more than three years GTRE and SNECMA cannot come to terms on K-10, kaveri engine. SO what does french think about jv with India. We are not swiz or brazil to buy RAFALEs planes in fly away condition.Dassault must have known that they have to enter into production agreement with HAL for RAFALE's production in India.Now saying that they cannot deal with HAL is something strange.Didn't they know the tech level of HAL then? have they found out suddenly now?

 

[roma]

India is way behind China in aircraft manufacturing, if we want to build future models which are competitive we need the technological know how and building facilities which we will get with the MMRCA deal. Not only that but also the best 4.5 gen fighter in the world, a strategic partner and 50% offset.

Hi Snuggy - thanks for your reply and this is in no way a fight or something

what i meant in my posts is that the Indian establishment could have more faith in our own men and women at the tejas development companies not out of pure nationalism but in fact out of the fact that the tejas IS a flying reality , not that far behind what the chins have done and with far less budget and much far less time

in fact when st anthony first saw the prototype - he smirked and asked if it would even fly - that attitude could do with some radical change - not that he was to have been blamed - as he might have seen some failures before - but it is due for attitude change at least in this area - put a bit more in - give our people a fair chance especially now that they ARE getting somewhere and give them a better budget

India has the money and the tejas justifies the expenditure .

meanwhile we cover our backs with mmrca deals eg rafael which is a great deal - hope we iron out the bugs and get it rolling in .

 

[sayareakd]

I think Rafale wants Reliance to make the aircraft that is what they are playing for :shocked:

 

[anoop_mig25]

I think Rafale wants Reliance to make the aircraft that is what they are playing for :shocked:

They should be more worried then . u never know when would Anil amabni would sell those technology as indegenious in future without even paying a peeny to Rafale

 

[p2prada]

pouring the 10 billion into tejas MK2 development and MCA would have been better and faster ?

The development of Tejas Mk2 (which is just a modified Tejas Mk1) has been "estimated" around $1 Billion by the govt.

The development of a Saab Gripen NG (which is a major technological overhaul to Gripen C and cannot really compare to Tejas Mk2) has been "sanctioned" $1.6 Billion by the Swedish govt.

In total, India will be spending more on LCA than the Swedes have on a more advanced Gripen, irrespective of the cost difference between Sweden and India, that is if IAF and IN eventually place orders for it.

Rafale's order is the procurement budget and not development budget, major difference.

In terms of procurement budgets, Gripen NG is expected to bring in $7.5Billion over the development budget. For LCA, it is expected to be over $10Billion. So total costs for the Tejas program alone exceeds $10Billion.

Naturally, as a more capable aircraft, we will be spending a bit more on Rafale as compared to LCA. Dassault had announced previously during the Swiss deal that it takes 3 Gripen NGs to do the work of one Rafale. The same math should work for LCA even though it will be less sophisticated compared to Gripen NG. So on a cost vs capability curve, the Rafale should actually be cheaper than LCA.

Btw, money does not really increase development speed, maybe procurement speed, but not development.

 

[Jagdish]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9N6ubgPmxmM/UV5R8K5KHHI/AAAAAAAAUD0/4VBdnnAX_-4/s1600/mmrca.jpg[IMG]

[url=http://livefist.blogspot.in/2013/04/mmrca-negotiations-stalled-over.html]Livefist: MMRCA Negotiations Stalled Over Dassault-HAL Tussle: Report[/url]

 

[Jagdish]

 

[ersakthivel]

There is no earth shaking new tech that cannot be absorbed by HAL for RAFALE.It is a seventies vintage design. Much more advanced systems like Arihant, Agni, K-15 and nuclear weapons and ballistic missile systems have been made here in India.

For Tejas mk-2 RFI for ASEA radar is going to be sent out soon for a foreign partner. Composite tech is already there for Tejas. In fact if IAF opts for much higher powered version of Ge-414 -Epe tejas mk-2 will have more TWR than RAFALe's 2x75 kn engine can provide(even k-9 produced 80 plus kn thrust that too at flat rated performance).Strangely IAF, which makes so much noises over performance issues, is keeping very quiet on this engine option of highest thrust engine available for TEjas mk-2 , while the Navy is very vocal about it.

from the very first flight of TD-1 of LCA in 2001 the IAF never voiced it's desire for a twin engined locally made fighter, even though it was buying lot of short legged MIG-29s for air defence with next to nothing ground attack capability.Why didn't the IAF foresaw a need for these MIG-29s to be replaced with the locally made multi role twin engined fighter. There is a fair chance if this requirement was raised in the 1990s a locally mad twin engined fighter would also be ready to enter production by now.If it is the Navy they would surely have raised such request.


Unlike grippen NG which is a mere integration of parts from all over europe and US, tejas mk-2 will have much more local components barring the Engine.SAAB won't be able to provide its own powerful new engine for Ng in the first engine change or long range BVRs made by it with no influence from others. Throughout it's lifetime buying all these third paty stuff for NG would be a horrendously costly budget bleeding exercise for IAF. So any simple comparison of developmental budgets won't do.

Once we get the single crystal tech and K-10 deal through , there is even a very good chace of tejas mk-2 getting indigenous engine as well. Also the asea radar of TEjas mk-2 will be totally under indian control, unlike grippen NG, which will have more than 70 percent components under the influence of players other than Sweeden.


http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-swedish-jet-us-cable-says/article4592091.ece


If you have any doubt you can go to the above link and see for yourself how US armtwisted SAAB to back off from IAf deal once.

So rafale is not going to bring in anything earth shattering here. We are yet to know how effective spectra is against ASEA radar. May be it is good against X band mechanical steered radars.No one knows it's effectiveness against new gen ASEA radars.Even french have designed and integrated their ASEA radar just an year before. So it is highly questionable whether the Spectra can spoof it.

Same is the story with Scorpene deal. When Arihant is ready to go for sea trials in a month, why is the huge delay in absorbing tech for ordinary diesel electric sub?

For more than three years the GTRE-snecma negotiations went on for k-10 kaveri. The talks dragged till the RAFALE won the MMRCA .Then all of a sudden the negotiations have been called off with unbridgable differences. it is a precious waste of three years for K-10 tech.

Everyone thought once snecma -GTRE deal for k-10 goes through , RAFALE may even get the K-10 engine in first engine change. The french played hard ball till MMRCA selection is over and then called off the negotiations for K-10. Why? Has the Indian govt taken note of it or not?

So the french whining is pointless.Why they did not clarify their doubt before entering tender?

 

[Daredevil]

Serious differences crop up in fighter aircraft deal


Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and French firm Dassault Aviation selected for the 126 fighter aircraft deal threatening to delay the country's largest one-time military acquisition.

Dassault has made it clear that it was "technically and practically not feasible to stick to the present obligations", as it is wary of encountering the fate of British telecom company Vodafone, which is facing problems over taxation issues.

In the contract, Dassault wants to be held responsible for only the first 18 aircraft to be supplied by it along with the kits to be supplied by it for the remaining 108 aircraft to be produced by the HAL in India but the Defence Ministry wants it to take responsibility for the quality and timely delivery of all the 126 aircraft.

The Defence Ministry is insisting that Dassault takes the overall responsibility of the contract while the French firm has told it that it was "technically and practically not feasible" to stick to the present obligations, sources told PTI here.

The French firm also does not want to be held responsible for the delays in the delivery of the aircraft to be manufactured by the HAL and has told the Ministry that it cannot be held responsible for paying the liquidity damages in case there are delays by HAL, they said.

Dassault fears it may land up in a Vodafone-like situation in terms of taxation for transfer pricing if it agrees with present obligations and such a thing can impact it adversely in a big way, sources said.

Dassault has suggested an "umbrella contract" to be signed for the deal under which two separate contracts can be inked including one for payment in Euros for the French firm and the other with HAL for which payments would be made in Rupees, the sources said.

The Ministry has, however, expressed inability to agree on these terms as it would be in deviation from the conditions mentioned in the Request for Proposal (RFP) for the procurement. The base price for the deal was $10 billion and contractual negotiations are underway to determine the final amount to be paid by India for the aircraft. Soon after the Rafale fighter jet was shortlisted by IAF in 2012, Dassault Aviation has been raising questions about the capabilities and the role of HAL in the contract for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA).

The Defence Ministry had earlier also rejected Dassault's demand for making it the lead integrator for the 108 aircraft to be produced in India as the RFP for the tender has specifically given that responsibility to the HAL.

-PTI

 

[binayak95]

IAF TO OPT FOR SUKHOI-30 IF RAFALE DEAL FALLS FLAT



The Indian Air Force (IAF) is coming up with a contingency plan to procure fighter jets to maintain its operational preparedness in case the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal worth over $15 billion to procure 126 Rafale jets does not go through.

The backup plan will see the IAF opting for 50 more Sukhoi-30 MKI jets to be bought off the shelf from Russia. The IAF has already inducted 100 SU-30s and will have 200 more jets in the next three to four years excluding the ones forming part of contingency project.

This development has come about as the MMRCA deal often termed as "mother of all deals" is stuttering due to various reasons, and officials are not able to give any timeline for its completion.

The Defence Ministry and French aviation giant Dassault, manufacturer of Rafale jets, are engaged in contract negotiations after Rafale was selected as the lowest bidder early last year.

However, Dassault recently raised doubts about the capability and role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to manufacture 108 jets in India. As per the request for proposal (RFP) conditions, India will buy 18 jets off the shelf from the vendor and HAL will manufacture the remaining planes.

Dassault reportedly said it will supply the kits to the Indian public sector aircraft manufacturer and will not be responsible for the final

product. Given these reservations, the French company wants to sign a separate contract with HAL for planes to be integrated in India.

India has rejected Dassault's conditions and maintained that the RFP clearly stipulates that the vendor-will be responsible for all the 126 jets and the HAL is the-lead integrator.

The Defence Ministry and Dassault are now engaged in talks to sort out this irritant.-Besides this issue, the recent AgustaWestland VVIP helicopter scandal has jolted the Government and any allegation of bribes or wrongdoing in the MMRCA contract may prove costly for the Congress in the run up to the- general elections, sources said.

In this backdrop, the Defence Ministry is taking all precautions to avoid any slip-ups even as the deal is marred by delays as the RFP was issued way back in 2008. Defence Ministry maintains that given the magnitude of the contract, negotiations are "protracted" and claimed that there are no slippages and the process is on track.

Defence Minister A K Antony recently said even after the contract negotiations are over, the deal will have to go through six to seven stages of vetting before the Cabinet Committee on Security(CCS) headed by the Prime Minister and the Union Cabinet gives its approval.

Sources also said if the deal does not go through, the Government will not negotiate with the second lowest bidder Eurofighter (consortium of Germany, France, Italy and UK). Incidentally, reports indicated that Germany will ask the Indian political leadership to reconsider Eurofighter's bid when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh holds talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel this week in Berlin.

As regards the IAF preferring SU-30s to meet any contingency, sources said HAL is already manufacturing these jets under transfer of technology pact with Russia and has requisite expertise and facilities for maintenance of the sophisticated planes.

In 1996, India signed a $-1.46 billion contract with Russia to buy 40 SU-30s and a technology transfer agreement for licensed production of 140 fighters at HAL facility in Nasik. Later, the first generation SU-30s were upgraded to SU-30 MKIs with more advanced avionics and weapons systems.

 

[gokussj9]

^^

Livefist: Negotiations For Rafale On Track, No Back-up Plan: IAF

Responding to a report The Pioneer today that it had lined up a purchase of additional Su-30MKIs in the event that negotiations for 126 Rafales failed to result in a contract, the Indian Air Force has issued a statement to say:

"Apropos a report in a certain section of the media indicating IAF will opt for Sukhoi-30 if Rafale deal falls flat as on 08 Apr 2013. The IAF strongly denies such report. The CNC (Contract negotiations committee) process for acquisition of 126 MMRCA is underway and there is no thought process for any procurement as a 'back up' as reported."

 

[sayareakd]

We are paying for TOT and those French are denying that to us by offering the same through Reliance.

HAL is making LCA, SU 30 MKI and in future FGFA and MRCA. So we can build on tech knowledge on the all the above aircraft and make AMCA etc and become self sufficient.

Reliance will only going to get us planes without TOT. They have no wait NOOOOOO experience with aerospace. So Rafale will do what Russians have done with TOT of T90S

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am viewing this from both side..

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Dassult dont want any responsibility for HAL made Rafales as HAL is known from low grade production, Even DRDO seriously doubt HAL ability to make tejas, Any crash could start a blame game as HAL is used to it, Dassult fear for its own reputation, I dont think TOT is any issue apart from HAL past behaviors..

Where as Gov want TOT and only way to get it is via HAL, Gov cannot improve HAL and its way of operations as HAL has too deep influence in Gov only, Gov fear Dassult will get away from transferring TOT if chose reliance, And concern is real too..

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Both sides concern is real, the issue is HAL and its way of conducting things around, Remember IAF had issue with HAWK Spares and HAL blamed British aerospace for its own fault..

Nor Dassult & Gov have any other issues..

 

[halloweene]

POLITICS AND NATION
India, Dassault agree to set aside divergences, move ahead in other areas
8 Apr, 2013, 2039 hrs IST, PTI
Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and the French firm.
NEW DELHI: India and French firm Dassault Aviation today decided to keep aside their sharp differences over contractual obligations and move ahead on the other aspects of the deal to procure 126 multirole combat aircraft for the IAF.

During the contract negotiation committee meeting today, the two sides agreed to keep their discussions pending on the issue of having separate contracts and the role of HAL in the deal and move ahead on other things such as pricing and support services, sources told PTI here today.

Serious differences have cropped up in the contract negotiations between the Defence Ministry and the French firm, threatening to delay the country's single largest dose military acquisition.

The French firm has already agreed with the Defence Ministry's demand for having one contract with the four major firms involved in the deal, including MBDA, for the weapons package for the aircraft instead of four separate contracts, they said.

The firm is understood to have agreed to the Defence Ministry's demand on the issue after the involvement of French government.

From India, Dassault agree to set aside divergences, move ahead in other areas - The Economic Times on Mobile

 

[Twinblade]

Both sides concern is real, the issue is HAL and its way of conducting things around, Remember IAF had issue with HAWK Spares and HAL blamed British aerospace for its own fault..

Nor Dassult & Gov have any other issues..

The BAE hawk spares issue is a largely misrepresented story in the media. HAL did npt 'blame BAE for its own faults'.
Here is the timeline of the events:-
- In 2009 HAL blames BAE for delays in ToT leading to low availability rates for BAE hawks. HAL uses the kits for producing new hawks to keep the old ones flying.
- In 2010, Govt of India imposes liquidated damages on BAE for non compliance with contract.
- In 2011 wikileaks releases US embassy cables where HAL's use of parts from new hawks to keep the old ones flying is discussed. Everybody conveniently forgets that BAE coughed up the liquidated damages and blames HAL for poor management and foresight.

 

[Patriot]

We are paying for TOT and those French are denying that to us by offering the same through Reliance.

HAL is making LCA, SU 30 MKI and in future FGFA and MRCA. So we can build on tech knowledge on the all the above aircraft and make AMCA etc and become self sufficient.

Reliance will only going to get us planes without TOT. They have no wait NOOOOOO experience with aerospace. So Rafale will do what Russians have done with TOT of T90S

Big No for Reliance at least for MRCA deal. On the other hand HAL is also not an holy cow. This is high time that HAL need to be reformed to bring it out of the clutches of the bureaucracy. Either HAL's part disinvestment has to be done or bring some hardcore professional preferably from IAF cadre to make it more disciplined & efficient. HAL needs a leader like Dr. APJ Kalam to channelize it's vast resources & competence.

 

[sayareakd]

Another method can be disinvestment of HAL. If reliance want to buy it let them do it in public auction.

 

[Shirman]

Another method can be disinvestment of HAL. If reliance want to buy it let them do it in public auction.

why can't there be a public-private partnership between the both.... because of these two our beloved Indian air-force suffers....and induction gets delayed....

Another thing is do we have time for auctions of psu's i mean iaf would be like give us our damn jets and talk about auctions and disinvestment of HAL later you guys have already delayed it for 7 years now........




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