Modernisation for Indian 105mm Light Field Guns.

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Kunal Biswas, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Modernization for Indian 105mm Light Field Guns.

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    Small Introduction :
    Indian 105mm Light Field Gun is the primary artillery piece used in mass over Indian terrain by Indian Army, It was introduced in 1980s and considered one of the best in the world in terms of weight and its range which surpass Russian equivalent 122-mm D-30 field guns, It was also used in Kargil war in mass and more active then any other artillery piece during the war, Providing suppressive fire support for Infantry.

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    Situation :
    Still today, 105mm IFG is the only arty piece used in mass and dispute induction of newer 155mm pieces such as American M777, It wont leave Indian inventory any time soon, Let it be now or in near futures. This is due to its Light weight design which enhance its portability, 105mm Indian field Gun will remain in Indian Army in mass specially in Mountain terrain that is because it can be transported by mules in parts to some of the inaccessible posts over LOC as well as LAC, This quality lacked in other artillery piece in Indian Army and also for American M777 155mm guns, Despite being light its range is outstandingly 17kms with HE rounds, Unfortunately there were no steps taken to increase its range with Bleed base / rocket assisted / GPS guided rounds, Nor in last decades any steps taken to increase its accuracy with help of digital fire control systems which are produced by BEL for FH-77B of 39 caliber and Prototype FH-77B of 45 caliber.

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    Conclusion :
    It should be noted that 105mm IFG will remain in mass regardless of its age, It is imperative that such a artillery pieces which will be used by our Soldiers in mass that is in 21st century, And Should be Modernized.

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    It should be noted that 105mm Field Guns are not only in Indian service but as well as British and American Military units, And are upgraded with new ammunition and fire control system which enhanced there range and accuracy as well. These Upgraded Guns were used in recent conflicts such as Iraq War and Ongoing Conflict in Afghanistan.

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    1. Political discussions is not encouraged in technical thread..
    2. Read the first post and the thread before going forward

    Thank you..
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2016
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  3. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Present Modernization Prospects :

    1. Digital Fire Control System for 105mm Field Guns :

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    Digital fire control system are effective in worst weather conditions such as dust storms, Heavy fog / rain as they use GPS / INS unlike traditional optical FCS, Such FCS does the balletic calculation and has the capability to interface with a full range of additional sensors and equipment such as APU which are installed with FCS on the Gun itself, It accurate 3D self location with and without GPS and continuous determination and display of gun barrel direction and elevation.Such system offers a Gun not only to act in a battery but as a single Unit.

    In India context, BEL manufacture similar digital FCS which are used on 39 caliber FH-77B and FH-77B prototype in 45 caliber, Such FCS are battle proven in Kargil when FH-77B were used intensively and most importantly very accurate.

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    From Above, It is very possible to upgrade 105mm IFG with Indian made electronics and APU, As these FCS are battle proven, There should be an effort to do the same with 105mm IFG as they are serving in large number within Indian Army and will be in future, Such upgrade will surly enhance the accuracy of the system and will give ability of a single operational unit anywhere on Battlefield.
     
  4. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Present Modernization Prospects :

    2. Improved Extended-Range & Precision Ammunition for 105mm Guns:

    A > 105mm Bleed Base Round
    B > 105mm Rocket Assisted Round
    C > 105mm Precision Round

    ================>>

    A > Extended-Range 105mm Bleed Base Projectile

    A Sort Note on Bleed base Working >>

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    [​IMG]

    Bleed base Shell will increase normal range by 30% that means addition of 5 to 10 kms to Normal Range of IFG 105mm >>

    17km Normal Range + 5km-10km bleed base = 22km - 27km

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    B > Extended-Range 105mm Rocket assisted Projectile

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    Short Note On Rocket Assisted Projectile >>

    Interesting Development : M913 ESIP Projectile, 105MM, HERA >>

    Source : M913 ESIP Projectile, 105MM, HERA

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    In Case Of 105mm IFG the range would increase by 5kms..

    17km Normal Range + 5km bleed base = 22km

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    C > 105mm Precision Round :

    a .
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    Precision Guidance Kit (PGK), formerly known as Course Correcting Fuze (CCF), is a program that will enhance the accuracy at mid to max ranges of all 155-mm and 105-mm artillery projectiles. The Precision Guidance Kit (PGK) is a low cost fuze sized module that is used in lieu of a standard fuze on existing stockpile artillery projectiles to reduce ballistic delivery errors, improving artillery terminal effectiveness. The amount of improvement is dependent on the magnitude of the uncorrected errors and the error reduction capability of the PGK approach. PGK is a fuze-sized "module" that will have GPS to provide the location of the round and time during its flight while an inertial navigation system (INS) will determine the trajectory and continuously correct the round for increased accuracy.

    PGK rounds fired at the mid-to-max ranges will be as accurate at 30 kilometers as rounds without PGK are when fired at five and 10 kilometers. CEP with PGK is no longer a function of range. In terms of the example M549A1, if it had PGK, its 260-meter CEP at 30 kilometers would shrink to 50 meters. In essence, PGK will shrink the miss distance, improve accuracy and result in better overall effectiveness and efficiency. It will ensure rounds impact on a target within their lethal radius, making conventional cannon artillery accurate at all ranges. The PGK program has three increments. The two follow-on increments will provide additional capabilities.

    Increment 3 adds the 105-mm family of platforms, munitions and propellants into the previous design. The reason for delaying the 105-mm variant is to synchronize it with the planned M119A2 howitzer digitization program. A long-range goal for Increment 3 is to leverage the 155-mm PGK technologies for PGK use with 105-mm projectiles. The initial version of PGK may be robust enough to meet the 105-mm howitzer requirements, but only time and testing will determine its compatibility. The requirement for the third increment is for less than 30 meters (threshold) and 10 meters (objective) CEP for all 155-mm and 105-mm projectiles.

    Source : XM1156 Precision Guidance Kit (PGK)

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    b.
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    The capability is achieved by integrating GPS guidance and laser targeting. Course correction and terminal control will be performed by employing four steerable canard fins.

    The companies plan to complete the development by 2009. At the exhibition IMI unveiled the follow-on product, currently at an early development phase - a 105mm Guided Artillery Munition (GAM). This GPS guided projectile will complement IMI growing line of 105mm artillery ammunition. It will have a range of 23 km and an accuracy level of 10 meters.

    >105mm Artillery Munition with GPS guidance
    >Effective range: 23 Km
    >Accuracy: 10m CEP
    >Includes the Pure Heart (GPS/IMU and FCC) for guidance, navigation and flight control, a canard servo and control mechanism.

    =============>>

    In Indian context, This can be use as well, ATK / GAM, GPS kit can be useful for 105mm Indian Artillery Shells..
     
  5. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    I have always been in favour of upgrading existing weapons as a route to become selfreliant inweapons tech. Your views are very workable and will result in substantially increased fire power for IA.
     
  6. Keshav Murali

    Keshav Murali Back to studies :( Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas, who designed these guns? DRDO or OFB?

    Hats off to both the designer and BEL for creating a winner. The 105 mm gun will be light, accurate, and deadly with such upgrades.

    Are these deployed in the mountain outposts? Because I personally feel that when this is combined with the 81 mm mortar, a formidable defence is formed.

    Let's keep our fingers crossed.

    BTW, range of 27 km would be impressive for a 1980 gun. :notbad:

    And Base Bleed + RAP would be overkill :yey:
     
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  7. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    OFB & DRDO have made some recent breakthrus in metallugy and metallurgical processes. These have already been incorporated in Arjun MK2 gun. I am sure that with a bit of Jugaad we can merge the tech of Bofors with IFG to create a far superior gun. One way is to increase its chamber pressure to increase its range as it has provision for a super charge to extend its range.
     
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  8. mikhail

    mikhail Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas,sir according to your assessment Base Bleed Round should be the most viable option for our IFG/IFLG because it increases the range of these guns to a maximum of 27 km which is significantly higher than the R.A.P. round which will enhance the range upto 22 Kms but at the same time we should also induct the high Precision round as well to increase the accuracy of the IFG.so i think that the DRDO/OFB should work on developing a Base Bleed Round for IFG/IFLG and at the same time should moderise them with our indigenous FCS and APU with the help of BEL.
    personaaly i totally agree with you that we should modernize these 105 mm IFG/IFLG because these guns are used in mass in the I.A. and we have around 1300 of these guns plus the IFLG version is extremely light and can be effectively used in the mountains in case of high altitude warfare.
    but sir my question is can BEL modify the APU of the FH-77 Bofors to make it fit into the IFG/IFLG?i mean do we have the required tech to achieve this or do we have to take the help of Israel in this matter?secondly do we manufacture Precision munition for artillery in India?
     
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  9. rock127

    rock127 Maulana Rockullah Senior Member

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    @Kunal : How many of these 105mm do we have in total?
     
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  10. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    LFG based on IFG has already been delivered to IA. A total of about 150 were ordered for chinese border and all are operational now. AFAIK, over 1700 IFG were delivered to IA.
     
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  11. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    As per Various Articles available on the Internet
    IA is phasing out 105 mm and 122 mm guns

    ..:: India Strategic ::.. Indian Army: Artillery guns for new Weapons

    155 mm will be the standard artillerry in a decade's time
    slowly all other calibers will be phased out

    Wherever Lighter weapons are needed 155 Ultra light howitzers
    Mortars ie 120mm ; 81 mm and 75mm/ 24 pounder Mountain guns will be used

    The Damage done by 155 mm on fortifications is much more
    BOTH on the plains and mountains

    105 mm does not do much damage to strong bunkers and fortifications

    It can only kill Infantrymen and other soft targets ie NON armoured vehicles
    like jeeps and Trucks
     
  12. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    The US army recently got the updated M119A3 105mm at Fort Bragg.
    Below is the link of the same being discussed at DFI
    http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...es-new-m119a3-105mm-light-gun.html#post734232

    The last major order of 150 odd 105mm LFG was during the raising of Mountain division along our eastern borders.
    These howitzers will be replaced with M-777 being procured from USA.

    The major drawback of 105mm howitzer is its effectiveness against well protected structures.
    so, High explosive rounds must be developed.
    Secondly, the base bleed, RAP and other rounds will always be special ammunition because of their prohibitive cost.

    The M119 has a max. range if 19.5 km after up gradation.
    but out LFG has 17 km with normal rounds due to it's longer caliber.

    So, for a longer range sustained fire the caliber should be improved along with the chamber volume which will increase the size of charge bags used.
    Also, up-gradation should feature better metallurgy for more durable barrel which will have longer life.

    Digital Fire control system should be introduced in the up-gradation.
    But what's the logic behind APU?
    The greatest advantage of LFG is that it can be transported by Mi-17. Will introduction of APU enable that?

    For infantry support roles in northern plains, The tracked version on BMP-2 Chassis and mounted on 8x8 trucks will be more helpful.
    This will also be the version which BSF will be interested in.

    So, in all the up gradation should be in line of the role envisioned for 105mm howitzer after introduction of 155 52 caliber howitzer.
     
  13. SilentKiller

    SilentKiller Regular Member

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    but 155mm guns can't be taken everywhere but 105 can be. hope if we can make 105mm guns even more lighter using titanium alloys as used in M777 and adding better electronics, these guns would be become much more deadly and effective.
    for chinese front like in leh, we can have few of these mounted on BMP2.
     
  14. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Then the articles are wrongly written, 81mm mortar shell can take a BMP-2 out..

    Before bumping in between read the first post to understand the content of the thread..

     
  15. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Every weapon has a specific role and in that role only such a weapon can deliver. If it was not so, everyone wud have gone for single type of weapon be it, rifles, guns, tanks, arty, aircraft or ships. This gun is an outstanding gun and can be made evn lighter to be helilifted by even LCH or we can mount it on some of our BMPs to make it SP.
    The mountain warfare has its limitations vs flat land warfare. The mobility is highly restricted and so the flanking and pincer moves are difficult to achieve. Counter battery fire in mountains is very effective for these reasons and so you must have guns which can be rapidly moved to far off locations within the limited battlefield.
    If I were a gun specialist, I wud develop a howitzer model of this gun and also a model which is as good as the good old 75 pounder. remember what Tanks did in Zozila and Leh in 1947/48? same can be done by this gun if mounted on BMP chasis or made mule transportable in large numbers.

    Lastly why wud our special forces carry side arm like pistol/Knife if rifle cud do it all.
     
  16. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    In a battlefield with average height of over 12.5k feet, the load carrying capacity of a soldier reduces to half and his time to recover from a grueiling speed march to go into battle increases four folds. So we will have enemy concentrations and forming areas for battle very close to frontline. In such a case a range of 22-27 kms is as good as 40-45 kms for a flat land battlefield.
     
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  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    The APU have to be designed in house for the gun, DRDO is known to have design APU for LCA and Arjun MK1 ..

    India does not produce any precision ammo for Artilary as of now, But in future it will..

    Till then we have to purchase Precision kit for ordinary shells, Which are cheaper..

     
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  18. Neil

    Neil Senior Member Senior Member

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    http://India develops propellants for Bofors

    from the article...::
     
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  19. cobra commando

    cobra commando Tharki regiment Veteran Member Senior Member

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    //Small Introduction :

    Indian 105mm Light Field
    Gun is the primary
    artillery piece used in
    mass over Indian terrain
    by Indian Army, It was
    introduced in 1980s and
    considered one of the
    best in the world in terms
    of weight and its range
    which surpass Russian
    equivalent 122-mm D-30
    field guns,
    It was also
    used in Kargil war in
    mass and more active
    then any other artillery
    piece during the war,
    Providing suppressive
    fire support for Infantry.//

    :fyeah: :truestory:
     
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  20. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    The logic here is simple, To upgrade existing system with what available to us..

    Going for total different design have its own drawbacks, one is time consuming..

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    105mm use HE, Smoke and Illumination, 105mm does not pack enough punch but it would be successful if its accurate as FH-77, So accuracy is a priority.

    M777 are light but not light as 105mm, Also M777 are large in size and cannot be placed everywhere, there portability is limited specially in Indian terrain..

    ------------------

    APU provides the power for electronics and hydraulics..

     
  21. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    I had come across a view that rather than deploying 145X3 M777 we should deploy 1000's of 105mm LFG at our eastern borders for more effective control of situation.

    Do you support the view @Kunal Biswas
     
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